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Reply with quote  #101 
I am listening.  Great post.  It was somewhat of an angry reply but deserved.  I do commend you for driving me into action.  I want to know the history of the breed and so do a large number of the American Mastiff owners.  Please know and I am saying this with all sincerity that I do respect your breed and the EM is what put us onto the AM.  We(my wife and I) love our dog and we want to know everything we can about the history. I will get to the bottom of this issue and the questions you asked.  Please also note that some people are really torqued off and think you have been American Mastiff bashing.  You last post was nice to here.  I am still disturbed but I am willing to co-exist you are welcom on the forum I host.  I will get the answers so future generations of American Mastiff owners can know the history.  BTW....In another two generations we will have a 30 year history so it may not matter what the original was.  A lot of dogs origination is never really known but I don't want that with the American Mastiff. 

Oh...I am sorry I said Bane would break your dogs hip.....I would like to have gathering with you someday if you are willing just to meet and put a face with a name. 

Thanks,

Doug
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #102 
Doug,

I'm not the enemy!

Go do the research, take two aspirins and call me in the morning!

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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #103 

I and others dealt with fredricka over on mastiffweb about 3 yrs ago.  Below is an email that Fredricka sent a puppy buyer.  NOte she doesn't even know for sure what breed she mixed her first OEM with.  Also at that time Fredricka had a dog named George that was AKC reg. as a Mastiff and CKC reg. as an AM.  OF course when AKC was notified they didn't care that she reg. her AKC Mastiff as a diff. breed with the CKC because they did not recognize anything from the CKC (continental Kennel Club)  Here is the email from Fredricka to her buyer.

START COPY:

This is a partial email that deals with the above post. This is the story the "breeder" told back in 2001 to someone who had already purchased one of her pups. Note the original mix was with an unknown breed, only said to be such and such. Note that the original foundation male wasn't even born until 1990, you can look that one up. Note she says here she only bred with OEMs after the first initial mix. That's all I have to say on this because now I'm giving her free advertising

Forwarded Message:


Subj: Re: questions
Date: 5/24/2001 2:32:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time

From: flyingw@bright.net (Fredericka Wagner)
To: .........

Hi, ..........; will try to answer your questions; I have been
breeding my americans for
years, I imported my first
english from england many years ago and he
was the dog that I crossed to
the female, said to be anatolian, not registered;
someone gave her to me years ago, she was such a
great dog and looked like a
purebred mastiff to me, but
she did not drool at all. wonderful female. i just loved
her; I bred her to my imported
male, (her name was annie)
if you get an extended pedigree on ........which you can buy from CKC,you will
see her far back on the dam's
side of the pedigree;so many
generations back,she may be
off the six generation pedigree by now; all the rest
of ........is english mastiff.
He is about 7/8 english and
only about 1/8 the outcross
that dried up the mouth.Your
.........mother is Taffy, and
her mother was candy and her mother was Annie,the
original outcross female;
Candy's father was Bournewood Kenworthy Hudson, the dog I paid thousands for
and imported from england years ago.He
was from the best kennel in
england, an english mastiff
and his sire won Crufts three
times, a record never since
broken. Hercules Taffy's sire
is all english. I can fax you
a copy of Taffy's pedigree if
you would like.
ever since that first cross I have bred to english mastiffs....................................

END COPY - Link to board where posted.   http://mastiffweb.com/cgi/webdiskusjon/hoved.pl?df=4326&meldID=15597-5&hID=15597
 
 
Here is a diff. story that Fredricka told the same day???????
 
START COPY:
 

Valid input Jane; thanks for your thoughts.

I understand your point: The Anatolian Shepherd is not generally considered a great "house" dog – that much is true. However, the current American Mastiff was bred to more than just an Anatolian Shepherd:

Here are the facts (as simple as I can make them anyway!):
28 years ago, several OEM's were cross-bred with a mixed breed (1/2 Anatolian Shepherd & 1/2 Great Dane). A few very select pups from those litters where cross bred back with the OEM & others with an Irish Wolfhound/OEM. Hand-selected pups from best litters were then bed back w/ OEM's. The result became the American Mastiff. The pedigrees exist to back it up.

American Mastiff's have been bred within their own species for 21 years now! They look exactly like their OEM cousins & have as great a temperament (minus the drool). AN AMERICAN MASTIFF (from Flying W Farms) HAS NEVER BEEN REPORTED FOR AGGRESSION! How do I know, because people that buy dogs from Flying W are part of a family…we keep in touch. EVERY dog is accounted for!

No American Mastiff has yet achieved “championship” status in the AKC show ring - this is because the AKC is yet to recognize the breed! Furthermore the breed was developed not to achieve show ring titles, but to be a better a house pet (nothing more / nothing less). American Mastiffs have a great temperament w/ a solid & predictable personality.

They have maintained the same genetic standards for breeding maintained by the Seeing Eye in Morristown, NJ (36% inbred). NOBODY can say the Seeing Eye is producing poor quality dogs!

These are facts. Glad to help educate.



Fredericka
(IP: 68.99.173.40)

 

End Copy - link to board  - http://mastiffweb.com/cgi/webdiskusjon/hoved.pl?df=4326&meldID=15595-2-1&hID=15595




If you have the time to search Mastiffweb, now closed, somewhere over there I posted the reg. name of George AND the response from AKC.  I just  can't find it anymore.

Personally I feel the AM is a pure and simple marketing ploy to sell mixed breed dogs to unknowing buyers.  The lady didn't even know what the original bitch even was.  It was given to her with no papers and not knowing for sure what breed it was.   You can tell people til your blue in the face but There's always going to be buyers for these mixes and their owners will defend them to the end because they don't want to admit they were taken by a very shady lady and that their dogs are not and never will be recognized by a legit registry. 

I quit trying to discuss it WITH Fredricka or the people she had duped at the time.  They didn't want to listen.

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EileenDurante

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Reply with quote  #104 
Many years ago when I lived on Long Island and was doing " mastiff rescue", I was the only one at the time fostering many of the mastiff breeds. A few of Frederickas dogs wound up in rescue for temperment issues. As I was the only foster name on the list for the kill shelters, they just gave out my address and phone UGH. I had people showing up with these poorly bred mutts demanding I take them in. I explained to the owners that they were NOT mastiffs, but dangerous mixed breeds created as a marketing scam.
As there was no official American mastiff rescue ( AND THERE STILL ISN'T )
I contacted Fredericka to take responsibility for the dogs. When I told her they were neutered she had no interest in taking them back. So much for her being a caring breeder !!

BTW as long as we are on this subject, another thing that is pissing me off big time is how these dual registered NON-DNA'd Flying W cross breeds of hers have somehow wormed thier way back into the OEM gene pool.  Yup that's right folks. There is a well known mastiff breeder that recently bred her AM/OEM cross bitch to another OEM breeders stud dog. After I told her of the pedigree problem and rejected her request to use my studs for this bitch she told me she didn't know this and said she would spay her bitch. Obviously she was very determined she reached out to another stud owner, who I am sure was not aware of the situation. The pups were advertised/bragged about on the mastiff chat boards and sold as OEM's.



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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #105 
I'd like to know who would do something like that.  That's really awful.

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EileenDurante

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Reply with quote  #106 

Jann~ You have mail


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Eileen Durante
http://www.celestialmastiffs.com
VISIT OUR BAKERY
http://www.dogcookiebaker.com

A dog, treated with a little kindness, will be your friend for life. How do we reward them? By condemning many to a life of pain or an early death due to various inherited diseases Do we not owe them more than this?
Please support mastiff health testing. Thank you.

http://www.cafepress.com/mastiffstuff
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #107 
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