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Reply with quote  #26 
many mastiff breeders have their own web sites...maybe one form of protest worldwide would be to have a Warning..not to be confused with the American Mastiff with a small paragraph on the short history, publically made false claims, registration issues etc
I'd be happy to put something like this up on mine..has anyone got something done up I can borrow?
It would work if a large number of mastiff breeders would be prepared to do it...
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #27 

You could check out the MCOA site and reprint the American mastiff issue!

 

I don't think they would mind, since it is there to benefit the proposed  "English mastiff"!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #28 

Karen, Jann has a disclaimer on her mastiffs.org website along with links to other informatioin. 

 

Jann, would you please pin that information on this board and give your members permission to use it on their own websites?

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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #29 
Steve - I wanted to tell you thank you for checking with an attorney on this issue.  It's really apprceciated!!!

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Reply with quote  #30 
Thanks Deanne..
Steve I get the point you are making but have you got any better suggestions right now?..do MCOA have a similar disclaimer about the designer American  Mastiff breed on their site. Another idea may be to create a 'brand' of authenticity for the true mastiff  pure breed and bred, and thereby further separate the Mastiff from the Am Ma.
We have done this in NZ to differentiate and protect authentic indigenous art made in NZ from mass made commercial replicas made in China who are just cashing in on our culture. In NZ they set up a body to authenticate artists and to educate the tourists! It has been reasonably effective. At least people  know there is the REAL thing..and the other things!


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Reply with quote  #31 
'Change the name or do nothing'

Well thats a little defeatist Steve!!! What will changing the name accomplish long term! It will look like the Am Ma has been around longer then..you will not only have to explain the origins but also the bullmastiffs, the standard change, the Am Ma's and the name change. You will look like a dog chasing its tail at a circus!! Dosn't matter what you change the name to, the word 'mastiff' is all anyone will hear!!!!!!!

I still think it is better to make the word MASTIFF mean something...to mean what it means!! Ancient, noble, unique, original, authentic etc etc
We should ACT like guardians of the breed.




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Reply with quote  #32 
I'm with Jann, thank you, Steve.  I hope that every MCOA member reads what the attorney said, and weighs it and all aspects of the issue carefully before casting their votes.
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Reply with quote  #33 
Kristen, I do appreciate that Steve has taken the time to check this out and thanks are rightly due...BUT ...the attorney did not say..."change the name or do nothing" Steve said this in his summary. That bit is his personal opinion. So it is not feasible to take the Am Ma people to court over the name.
I do not believe they would be the only two choices!

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #34 

For all:

 

The name "mastiff" can't be copyrighted, since it has been used in many other breeds for a number of years, if not hundreds of years.

 

Karen, if you want a "genuine" mastiff in the USA it's called an AKC mastiff, therefore, there's no need in this country to resort to other methods of validation.

 

A class action suit will not change the status, or the outcome, or the financial burden, not to mention the years, time, logistics etc. Class action suits may work in stock market issues, but won't serve us well in this venue.

 

Karen, there's a big difference between defeatism and realism!

 

What you would like to see enacted, does not mean that it can be enacted.

 

"Change the name, or do nothing" was the realistic evaluation shared by the lawyer, myself and Bill Newman ( who favors name change )

 

If you wish to get a second opinion, by all means do so!

 

Practically speaking, there is little that can be done in the courts. Perhaps a slight modification of their claims, but even that would not have a clear outcome and would cost a bundle! The risk reward ratio doesn't call for that sort of response. What happens when some other designer breed comes up with some mastiff like comments in their description of their dogs?

Are we to constantly be in court?

 

 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #35 
Karen, if you want a "genuine" mastiff in the USA it's called an AKC mastiff, therefore, there's no need in this country to resort to other methods of validation.

Well if this was true why is the MCOA worried about the Am Ma's at all?...my point was to further authenticate the word MASTIFF...strengthening its true meaning..thereby creating more of a gap between mastiffs and Am Ma's, but more importantly it would protect the long and ancient history of this breed. It would provide a platform for education and awareness.
I am not suggesting to 'copyright' the name mastiff..because you can't I understand that..but anyone can create a 'brand' or symbol of authenticity and promote it as a concept.

In a sense this is what the Am Ma people have done really successfully!!! The drooless long living mastiff!!! THEY HAVE PROMOTED THEIR BREED REALLLLLLY WELL>>THEY HAVE CAPITILISED ON THE UNIQUE QUALITES OF THEIR BREED AND BEEN REALLY SUCCESSFUL AT DOING IT!!!!! We know its bullspit..dosn't matter... IT WORKS!!
They are so successful you are willing to change the name of the original breed..thats been around for hundreds of years!!
Here's the scenario..they already advertise their mutts as a MASTIFF..If you change our breeds name to English Mastiff what is going to stop them using this name!!! Next thing they will be advertising Am Ma's as descended from English Mastiffs...which they rightly will be!!!! A better form of English Mastiff no doubt!!.
They are determined, smart and saavy and will always have you on the back foot!!!
Act like a true guardian of the breed!
Changing the name won't change the Am Ma people or their intent to continue to breed what in their mind is a better mastiff/english mastiff!
The MCOA are going to have to get smart and saavy as well in the modern designer breed era! They need to change what they are doing..not the name!!
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #36 

Karen,

 

It's obvious that you haven't followed the threads, for if you had, you would understand the answer to your question without me constantly needing to re-post the same information.

 

I'll accommodate you anyway, the name change was suggested, in order to deter the large amount of issues surrounding dangerous dogs. Every incident seems to label the offending breed as "mastiff", or "mastiff type". The club felt that some action was necessary and the name change was considered the most practical way of distancing our breed from other "mastiff" breeds.

 

The American mastiff issue was a secondary consideration, not primary.

 

In your prior post you say a lot, but offer nothing to realistically and practically benefit the breed due to the issues just discussed.

 

Before his death, Milton Avery could have been contacted to inform the public through his column and TV editorials. We don't really have a media advocate at present that has a wide audience and who would be willing to constantly bring light to this issue. Paid advertising is very expensive and would quickly bust the bank. Free spots are the only practical approach and that can only be implemented through friends in the media! Got any friends?


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #37 
My husband and I have been in law for years -he an attorney and me a legal secretary.  Unfortunately, what Steve summarized is pretty much right on the mark!!  It would take so much money to venture down a road with a remote chance of positive outcome....  Rich people fight this type of stuff just because they have all sorts of extra money and can, even if they fail and know they dont' have much of a chance, they will fight just because they have the money and might win the 1% chance. 

With that said, I don't know that changing the name is right thing either. 

I guess we all need to wait and see what the outcome is.  Does anyone know when the public will know the outcome of the name change debate? 

Once that is decided then it would be good to put together some bullet point lists about what it looks like going forward...


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Reply with quote  #38 

Karen,

It's obvious that you haven't followed the threads, for if you had, you would understand the answer to your question without me constantly needing to re-post the same information.

I'll accommodate you anyway, the name change was suggested, in order to deter the large amount of issues surrounding dangerous dogs. Every incident seems to label the offending breed as "mastiff", or "mastiff type". The club felt that some action was necessary and the name change was considered the most practical way of distancing our breed from other "mastiff" breeds.

The American mastiff issue was a secondary consideration, not primary.


Question; Are Am Ma's and dangerous dogs the same thing and wern't they used synonomously in the MCOA reasons for the name change?...I always understood this!
Question; Whether you change the name to english mastiff or anything mastiff will it change the way it is reported by the media? Mastiff is the only word people hear!!Best you change the MEANING of the word mastiff and the way it is used!


I did offer an option...get smart and saavy...conservative breed clubs of of old need to rise to the challenge of modern designer breeding and their dangerous products! In the current environment MCOA can't expect to mosey along doing the same old thing and expect it to be effective. How long did it take for the name change idea to peristalisis through the system of MCOA... 4yrs?
What is the MCOA's long term strategy for this..have they even got one? The name change is a band aid approach!!! Nothing will change after the name is changed! This whole issue should be a HUGE priority for MCOA. They won't need to exist if Mastiffs get on a dangerous breed list! It WILL require resources and a multi pronged long term approach. If the people who want various dog breeds banned can organise themselves to effectively further their cause why can't we!!


I do not mean to be personal about this..the whole issue annoys me..we also need to be more proactive here in NZ around these issues..probably every country does!

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #39 

Karen,

It's obvious that you haven't followed the threads, for if you had, you would understand the answer to your question without me constantly needing to re-post the same information.

I'll accommodate you anyway, the name change was suggested, in order to deter the large amount of issues surrounding dangerous dogs. Every incident seems to label the offending breed as "mastiff", or "mastiff type". The club felt that some action was necessary and the name change was considered the most practical way of distancing our breed from other "mastiff" breeds.

The American mastiff issue was a secondary consideration, not primary.


Question; Are Am Ma's and dangerous dogs the same thing and wern't they used synonomously in the MCOA reasons for the name change?...I always understood this!

Answer: You misunderstood this!
Question;
Whether you change the name to english mastiff or anything mastiff will it change the way it is reported by the media? Mastiff is the only word people hear!!Best you change the MEANING of the word mastiff and the way it is used!

Answer: And how do you do that? In all probability the name change will not see the light of day!


I did offer an option...get smart and saavy...conservative breed clubs of of old need to rise to the challenge of modern designer breeding and their dangerous products! In the current environment MCOA can't expect to mosey along doing the same old thing and expect it to be effective. How long did it take for the name change idea to peristalisis through the system of MCOA... 4yrs?
What is the MCOA's long term strategy for this..have they even got one? The name change is a band aid approach!!! Nothing will change after the name is changed! This whole issue should be a HUGE priority for MCOA. They won't need to exist if Mastiffs get on a dangerous breed list! It WILL require resources and a multi pronged long term approach. If the people who want various dog breeds banned can organise themselves to effectively further their cause why can't we!!


I do not mean to be personal about this..the whole issue annoys me..we also need to be more proactive here in NZ around these issues..probably every country does!
Answer: You are annoyed! OK! .....Now.....lets get real!

There are limited actions that can be taken. Emotions will not win the day and the breed will somehow manage to survive! Personally, this whole encounter was a total waste of time & energy! The other designer breeds will do what they will do and we mastiff people need to focus on what we should be focusing on, namely, breeding better mastiffs! Lets talk about a clarified standard! A unified standard! Not a standard that incorporates "non-standard" into it's standard!!! Where is the brain power?????????????


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #40 
What kind of timeframes do you think are involved before Mastiffs are listed as a dangerous breed? 2, 5, 10 yrs??? Who has any facts about the progress of the  dangerous breed movement?
Is this the most serious threat to the breed in the future? How important is it really? Whats the point of funding health right now if the breed gets banned? What are the MCOA's priorities?
Has anyone done an analysis of the ramifications of such an occurance? SWOT &
a strategic plan?
Realistically how would MCOA and its system of operation be placed for dealing with the strategic findings?
What kind of expertise and resources are needed to launch a strategic approach?
Would a subsidary group with an independant legal structure but accountable to MCOA be more effective in moving quickly on this front if required?
Could people directly donate to this cause/group?
If MCOA arn't the right organisation to deal with this who would be? A private group?

Just some thoughts..or we could do nothing....live in the now... enjoy our mastiffs while we can... and wait for the inevitable!









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SilverKnight

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Reply with quote  #41 

Like a few others have stated....I think we need to get out there with our wonderfully behaved Mastiffs and promote the breed. Educate the public! Think we can get a movie star to do a PSA? LOL

I don't agree that changing the name will help save the mastiff. If people believe that the Mastiff is the cause of all attacks because of the media's lack of intelligence in calling all big dogs "mastiff" then that's what they'll believe - unless we are actively proving otherwise. Prove with real numbers that the majority of mastiffs with a bad temperment comes from petstores or puppymills or MIXES and maybe we can get legislation that stops them from selling them. These are not dogs that you can just leave in a cage with no social interaction and hope for the best.

 

On this subject I think everyone needs to unify. Fighting amongst ourselves only weakens the team. I think we all agree that we do not want our Mastiffs on a BSL or Ban, right?


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #42 

Karen,

 

No to all of the above and the "inevitable", by it's very meaning, should answer your question!

 

Nothing is written and life is unpredictable!

 

We do as much as we can and hope for the best!

 

Your thoughts are running in circles.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #43 
You are right Lora..there are things that can be done at an individual level as you and others have suggested ..
promoting the breed in the community, schools, therapy worketc
breeders using their websites etc
rescue work
challenging media reports
all these things have and are being actioned by wonderful mastiff breeders everywhere, more of these things is definately part of the solution

This issue also needs to be addressed at other levels as well..regionally, nationally, internationally. Govt legislation is all powerful...MCOA is right to identify it as a major threat. Whos responsibility is it to protect the breed from such a threat like this? It will have a global effect. I don't think anyone could disagree about not wanting mastiffs on a dangerous breed list...
I hope mastiff guardians everywhere are at least motivated to think more about the issues..it will take some leadership from somewhere to take the issue seriously and deal with it effectively.



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Reply with quote  #44 

No to all of the above and the "inevitable", by it's very meaning, should answer your question!
Its inevitable if we do nothing!

 

Nothing is written and life is unpredictable!

 

We do as much as we can and hope for the best!

What would our best be in a situation like this?


Your thoughts are running in circles.


Why not a lobby group of people prepared to do some research and groundwork?  If we don't have all the facts its hard to make any decisions or do our best. There must be people out there who have some skills to volunteer. We could use a free web board provider like yahoo to coordinate such an effort?

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #45 

"Could", "should", "should", "could" Albert Ellis would have a field day with you!

 

Look! Anyone can say organize and march!

 

The issue is what are you going to organize and where are you marching?

 

Rally the troops around what?

 

Who's going to take the leadership role of doing exactly what?

 

Lets form groups to go out and protest what? Where? How? Why? When?

 

Karen, sometimes doing nothing is doing something!

 

Removing the focus from a sensitive issue can accomplish more, than banging the drums and in so doing, bringing more negative focus on an already touchy subject.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #46 
what ever Steve...the dangerous breed  issue isn't going to go away and obviously the lobby group wanting dangerous breeds banned have good leadership, are more motivated, have more expertise, more nouse, a strategy and more resources for their cause than we do.
As do the Am Ma people apparently!!


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #47 

Karen,

 

Have you heard one thing I've said?

 

The AKC will do their best to lobby in favor of all breeds, but the dangerous dog bills enacted in several states are valid!

 

What we fear is that it will spill over into other breeds.

 

Government will protect people before protecting dogs.

 

The millions of dogs euthanized yearly attests to those facts!

 

Why not organize, march, raise money and scream about saving all those good dogs which get murdered every year?

 

Shouldn't that have priority over this issue?

 

Anyone can make a case for anything.....save the whales!

 

Stop clubbing to death baby seals!

 

 

 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #48 
we mastiff people need to focus on what we should be focusing on, namely, breeding better mastiffs! Lets talk about a clarified standard! A unified standard! Not a standard that incorporates "non-standard" into it's standard!!! Where is the brain power????????????? By Steve O.

Steve, come on!!!!  Revising the standard IMO has nothing to do with this issue.  Talk about off topic~  We have a standard and although our dogs might not all match - it didn't stop the crux of this issue from happening! 
OR
Are you trying to say that if we all breed BEEFER dogs the TYPE itself will speak for the breed so that our breed cannot be confused with the Am-ma or any other mix?   Definitely not sure where you are going with this.

On another note - good post Lora.  I know once I have all three of my dogs (God willing ) CGC'd and TDI'd and have done some work with them, heck even one of them, I will flaunt it to the media.  It is imperative to me for many reason to make sure my dogs are trained and safe and that I show the public just that.

We should all try hard to do this in the name of the "Mastiff" commonly known as the Old English or English Mastiff.  Those that work with therapy situations (Shawna :-) we need to get you all on the local news in you areas, in the paper, etc.  We need to educate the public and the media!!

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Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #49 

Monica,

You're pulling the above quote of mine out of context!

 

It was in response to Karen, who lives in Australia/New Zealand and was in reaction to the Australian KC's apparent change in their standard reflecting the non-standard wording, which seems to now allow all mastiffs without black masks as a non-standard approved representation.

 

THAT is potentially very damaging to the breed and was prompted by the OEMC change in their standard!

 

Taken out of context it appears OT, which it was not!

 

Here is Karen's statement and my response in whole.................


"I do not mean to be personal about this..the whole issue annoys me..we also need to be more proactive here in NZ around these issues..probably every country does!"
Answer: You are annoyed! OK! .....Now.....lets get real!

There are limited actions that can be taken. Emotions will not win the day and the breed will somehow manage to survive! Personally, this whole encounter was a total waste of time & energy! The other designer breeds will do what they will do and we mastiff people need to focus on what we should be focusing on, namely, breeding better mastiffs! Lets talk about a clarified standard! A unified standard! Not a standard that incorporates "non-standard" into it's standard!!! Where is the brain power?????????????


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #50 

The AKC will do their best to lobby in favor of all breeds, but the dangerous dog bills enacted in several states are valid!

After the battle is lost I am sure the AKC will fall back on the convienient excuse that they are just a registry after all..

 

What we fear is that it will spill over into other breeds.

Obviously MCOA saw this as a big enough threat to the  mastiff to warrant a a damn name change!!


Government will protect people before protecting dogs.
of course.....but what information are they acting on. If we as breed enthusiasts do not promote internal controls and education of course it will be left to the gov to enforce external controls!

 

The millions of dogs euthanized yearly attests to those facts!

 

Why not organize, march, raise money and scream about saving all those good dogs which get murdered every year?

 

Shouldn't that have priority over this issue?
Steve people are dying every second from starvation in Africa..should I feel so guilty as to not enjoy my next meal! I do not like the fact that dogs are being euthanised..does that mean we should not protect our breed?

 

Anyone can make a case for anything.....save the whales!
or revise the standard maybe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how important is that!!! NOT

 

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