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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #51 

the AKC will do their best to lobby in favor of all breeds, but the dangerous dog bills enacted in several states are valid!

After the battle is lost I am sure the AKC will fall back on the convienient excuse that they are just a registry after all..

Now who is being defeatist?

 

What we fear is that it will spill over into other breeds.

Obviously MCOA saw this as a big enough threat to the  mastiff to warrant a a damn name change!! So the MCOA felt that they had to do "something", so what? Being pressured to react doesn't make the reaction necessary, or potent!


Government will protect people before protecting dogs.
of course.....but what information are they acting on. If we as breed enthusiasts do not promote internal controls and education of course it will be left to the gov to enforce external controls! I'm not saying that you shouldn't speak out, I'm saying that practically speaking it will not be effective!

 

The millions of dogs euthanized yearly attests to those facts!

 

Why not organize, march, raise money and scream about saving all those good dogs which get murdered every year?

 

Shouldn't that have priority over this issue?
Steve people are dying every second from starvation in Africa..should I feel so guilty as to not enjoy my next meal! I do not like the fact that dogs are being euthanised..does that mean we should not protect our breed? That is just my point! The priority of how to protect the breed can cause the breed more harm than good if not well thought out!

 

Anyone can make a case for anything.....save the whales!
or revise the standard maybe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how important is that!!! NOT

So you feel that it's OK to have "non-standard" in your standard? That's OK with you? That won't harm the breed short term and long term? Perhaps we should just burn the standard and breed from memory! Just read the words on the bottom of every one of my posts, if you don't agree with those tenets, what's the point in discussing it further?

 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #52 

Monica,

You're pulling the above quote of mine out of context!

It was in response to Karen, who lives in Australia/New Zealand and was in reaction to the Australian KC's apparent change in their standard reflecting the non-standard wording, which seems to now allow all mastiffs without black masks as a non-standard approved representation.

THAT is potentially very damaging to the breed and was prompted by the OEMC change in their standard!

Taken out of context it appears OT, which it was not!

Here is Karen's statement and my response in whole.................


"I do not mean to be personal about this..the whole issue annoys me..we also need to be more proactive here in NZ around these issues..probably every country does!"

Well you got it all screwed up Steve..'the whole issue that annoyed' me was the dangerous breed issue and that was clear in the context. You are choosing to screw it around now because you lost it emotionally in your post!
I live in NZ not Australia..totally different country...we have our own KC and they havn't done a thing to change the standard here. The OEMC on their board were clear about their reasons for 'non standard' wording and it had nothing to do with the masks or colours...an administrative technicality is all. Silly Australia for getting that wrong!! You think they might have checked back with OEMC first like others of you have. And because you were one of those people you should know better than to give it any other meaning than was intended by the UK

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #53 

Karen,

At the time, when I received the information from Australia, I felt that the addition of non-standard to the OEM standard has caused a lot of confusion in many countries which follow that standard! I believe that NZ follows that standard as well!

 

What seems so simplistic to you, may have far reaching consequences to others.

 

You can assume what you wish and attribute it to rash emotions, but I think by now you really should know better than that! Here is your original "call to arms" quite emotional if you ask me!....

 

"I did offer an option...get smart and saavy...conservative breed clubs of of old need to rise to the challenge of modern designer breeding and their dangerous products! In the current environment MCOA can't expect to mosey along doing the same old thing and expect it to be effective. How long did it take for the name change idea to peristalisis through the system of MCOA... 4yrs?
What is the MCOA's long term strategy for this..have they even got one? The name change is a band aid approach!!! Nothing will change after the name is changed! This whole issue should be a HUGE priority for MCOA. They won't need to exist if Mastiffs get on a dangerous breed list! It WILL require resources and a multi pronged long term approach. If the people who want various dog breeds banned can organise themselves to effectively further their cause why can't we!!

I do not mean to be personal about this..the whole issue annoys me..we also need to be more proactive here in NZ around these issues..probably every country does!"

 

You can still keep seeing the issue the way you want to keep seeing it, I'm not here to demand that you see it any other way! I only suggest things strongly and then you can go your own way! 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #54 
Another one of your tactics..taking my post out of context and upsizing the font and bolding it to emphasise emotionality..well whatever Steve.
there is a difference between emotion and losing it....
We have always had the UK standard as our official standard here in NZ...we have no problem with it or understanding it!

I only suggest things strongly and then you can go your own way!
You wish!!
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #55 
YIKES - I think I'll steer clear - I'm not really learning anything from this thread at present..  Too many quotes, responses, etc... blurry eyes

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #56 

Karen,

My "tactics"?

 

I do it to separate out my words from anyone else's, so that it's clear to read.

 

In this instance the small type was my own, because I started the post, in other cases I enlarge "my type" to distinguish it from the original poster's smaller type. It's done for clarity!

 

Now, I could suggest that your tactic is to find erroneous issues and then attribute those issues to unsuspecting posters. It may give you the impression of your one-upsmanship, but in reality it's convoluted, hostile and off in left field!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #57 

The Am-Ma thread on Yahoo are now discussing their fluff Am-Ma's!

 

I was wondering when the Anatolian gene would start expressing coat length issues. Looks like it's starting to infiltrate their breed. Who knows, it might solve our problem for us in time. They seem to love the look and hopefully it will proliferate them right out of picture. In time the "American mastiff" could become a shaggy dane-like breed, which nobody would associate with our mastiffs!

 

Who knows!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #58 

Hi,

 

I am new to the forum and wanted to see what everyone was up to.  It seems that you all love your OEMs very much. I am very happy to see that.  Do any of you know the history of the breed during WWII?  I mean do you know what nearly happened to it and what was done to bring it back to the stable and proud breed it is today?  If someone does please post it so we can all be clear as to whether the OEMs are a true pure breed as well.  I am curious if your knowledge of the history of the breed is a great as your love for the breed....

 

Your fellow dog owner...

 

Doug

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #59 

Doug,

 

In all due respect, please peruse these threads, before you decide to "enlighten" us with your vast knowledge of "OUR" breed!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #60 

I wasn't enlightening you.  I was curious of the history.  Can you post the answer.  There are a lot of threads and was just curious.

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #61 

Check out the mastiff bullmastiff thread in the search bar. There are others as well!

 

 

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/mastiffmessageboard/vpost?id=1450573&highlight=mastiff+bullmastiff


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #62 
Doug, have you heard of "google"? all you need is 3 words and you will find all that you are looking for....just put in mastiff + history + wwii and see what you get. Good luck. And please try not to worry too much about "our" education.
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Reply with quote  #63 

Angie,


Could you be a bit nicer?  I am new to the forum and I am looking for answers.  Wouldn't you think first impressions are important.  Why so rude.  Do you know me.  Do you want to educate the world about OEMs?  Guess I don't care to be a part of this forum if this is the warm reception I get.

 

Thanks have a fun life in your bubble,

 

Doug

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #64 

Don't let the door hit you on the way out Doug!

 

Jann, we must fix those hinges!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #65 


WOW!!!

 

That is all I have to say.  Did you read the board rules when you signed up.

***************

 

Board Rules: This is a semi-moderated board that is open to all. It is for educational & informative purposes,
not to mention making new friends and sharing great pictures as well! Threats to members, foul language
and personal attacks should be avoided. In the best interest of other members, please respect our request. If
we find that anyone becomes repeatedly abusive, threatening, or offensive, we reserve the right to remove
or ban that person from this board.

 

****************

 

Be kind and make new friends.  Personal attacks not allowed. 

 

Why am I not welcome here?  Why were you so hostile.  I will leave but could you please just enlighten me as to why you were so hostile to me?

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NancyE

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Reply with quote  #66 

And meanwhile:



 



2 brand new posts on the American Mastiff forum today. One 8 month old AM died of cardiomyopathy, and another just snapped at his owner's young child.
Everyone is very busy shoving their heads into the sand. (although there are quite a few examples of aggression given, followed by a whole lot of excuses.)



I'm sorry Doug but these kind of stories don't envoke SYMPATHY from Mastiff folk who have been shouting about health testing and correct temperaments and the DIFFERENCES between Mastiffs and Anatolian Shepherds and the sheer stupidity of mixing these two breeds together.




Forgive us if we're not the nicey-nicey type of people you're accustomed to. If you want blissful ignorance you're on the wrong board.


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #67 

Doug wrote:



 



"Hi,



 



I am new to the forum and wanted to see what everyone was up to.  It seems that you all love your OEMs very much. I am very happy to see that.  Do any of you know the history of the breed during WWII?  I mean do you know what nearly happened to it and what was done to bring it back to the stable and proud breed it is today?  If someone does please post it so we can all be clear as to whether the OEMs are a true pure breed as well.  I am curious if your knowledge of the history of the breed is a great as your love for the breed....



 



Your fellow dog owner...



 



Doug"



 



Doug we're not altogether stupid on this forum!



 



When you come on and ask a question, which by it's very nature, tells me that you already know the answer, it is therefore, false and condescending!



 



If you came here to bait us, or show us how mixed our mastiff is, you've come to the wrong hacienda!



 



At least our forum didn't delete you, as your forum did to me, not to mention the "troll" statements also thrown at me after I asked concrete questions about your founder's original foundation stock!



 



If you came here with an honest heart, nobody would be showing you the exit sign!


"If we find that anyone becomes repeatedly abusive, threatening, or "offensive", we reserve the right to remove or ban that person from this board." 


Think about it!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #68 

I did come here with an honest heart.  I host the http://www.americanmastiff.org website.  I has no idea this forum existed until I was checking out my stats on the site and say there was a link from here to my site.  I thought I would come over and see what was up.  All breeds have an out-cropping in their history somewhere and all breeds have to start somewhere.  I am sure OEMs started somewhere right?


 


For the record, I love OEMs as well.  We have a breeder close to us and we may have taken on OEM as well.  The thing is, when we visited Fredericka's farm and we fell love with her breed. Nothing wrong with it, that is just how it is.  I didn't realize you actually knew who I was already.  I guess you really do pay attention to the AM forum. 


 


You may have read some of my posts on there.  I have been very embarressed to how some of the Am-Ma owners react to OEM owners when the come to our forum. 


 


I was reading this thread and I saw that you guys wanted to create a site that shows the differences between the two breeds.  I actually was wondering if we could set aside differences and come up with a resolution together. 


 


I really had good intentions and I just hope everyone can realize that we are dog lovers too and I am doing everything I can to ensure clear and consise information is communicated about the new breed.  A lot of the AM owners don't care about what you think or about your breed or wheter the AM is really every a "TRUE" breed because they love it so much.  But I want to tear down the barriers. 


 


So if you still don't want me around that is fine.  I am not here to cause problems.  Like I said I would also own an OEM in a heartbeat and I respect you all for your passion.  I just ask that you please give us a chance to make the AM a great bread.

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Reply with quote  #69 

One more thing.  I appologize for that "Troll"  thing.  The Yahoo forum is not my forum and I would never delete anyone from a forum.  I am sorry for that.  I didn't realize you were the person who was labeled 'troll' so that being said. 


 


Acutally I lied...We have deleted people....."Ones that post about XXX stuff"  but who can blame me. 


 


So Sorry.  Sorry for the initial post I should have know that wouldn't go over too well.  I wasn't trying to start a fight.


 


Doug

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SilverKnight

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Reply with quote  #70 
Welcome Doug!!


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #71 

Doug,


 


You should have known better, but you didn't!


 


So far, from what you've said, you know very little about the mastiff and even less about the Am-Ma!


 


You state that you would like there to be a resolve between the two camps, but unless you clearly see the main obstacles to that resolve, there can be no resolve!


 


The claims of the Am-Ma camp have been erroneous and the name has been stolen from our breed!


 


Clear up those two issues and we will welcome you with open arms!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #72 

I am working on getting the medical documentation from Fredericka and the genetic screening she did with her original dogs. 


 


As far as the name goes.  I cannot resolve that issue.  English Mastiff is your breed.  American Mastiff is ours.  That is something we are going to have to just leave alone for now.  I can try to dispel the rumors and work to document everything that will bring our breed to a legitimate standard that can be recognized by everyone.


 


So that being said.  What legitimate questions do you have?  I will take these back to the AM community and American Mastiff Breeders Council and get them answered and work on getting solid documentation on the breed and standard of breed.  We can resolve this issue together if you are willing to help.


 


Give me the questions and I will get answers(unbiased answers).


 


All I ask is if we can cut the American Mastiff Bashing to a minimal level and I will do my best to stop the American Mastiff owners from being so harsh towards your valid lines of questioning.


 


I want this new breed to succeed and it cannot without your help.

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Reply with quote  #73 
American mastiff- how big of a problem is this?

VERY BIG!
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #74 

Doug,


 


Our breed is also known as the English mastiff, but the proper name is just Mastiff.


 


The Mastiff in America was known as the American Mastiff, since it resided in America.


 


The earliest Mastiff club in America, was called the AMERICAN MASTIFF CLUB!


 


Now your new breed comes along and calls itself the American Mastiff!


 


I ask you simply if this was, is, or will ever be OK with Mastiff owners of Mastiffs in America?


 


Had your breed amended it's name to the Anatolian American Mastiff, or any other name, which did not infringe on our breed's rightful historical name......there would be little reason for even having this discussion!


 


It's not too late!


 


A change in name would validate the differences between our breeds, provided that the Am-Ma group would do the right thing!


 


The moral thing!


 


It's really all in your court!


 


Either you do the right thing, or face years of hostility and legitimate resentment from the mastiff community!


 


The choice is yours!


 


Relay that to your membership!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #75 

I need to vent a bit regarding my experience on the Am-Ma forum.

 

If you think that we gave their members a hard time here, you should try posting over there!...LOL

 

First time I ever got kicked off a forum!

 

I've never seen a group of dog enthusiasts less concerned about their breeds history, than the Am-Ma people on that forum.

 

Every specific question asked is returned with a vague answer, as though it should now "shut you up and lets move on" attitude!

 

Simple questions that anyone would ask is met with resentment and no curiosity.

 

These people just want pets!

 

They care not about history, shows, conformation, structure, genetics etc.

 

Yet they want all of the recognition and the bells & whistles of a legitimate breed!

 

Heaven forbid if you ask about the breed's origin. You don't get a specific answer, all you get are mastiff kennel names thrown at you, with an "are you satisfied now" chaser!

 

They are mutually clueless and what's worse....arrogant!

 

As far as I'm concerned, until they get serious about the founding breeds and specific dogs which went into their "breed", they can never establish a legitimate following from serious cynologists.

 

Anyone can start a new breed. It doesn't take talent. All it takes is two dogs!

 

The talent, is in getting the clueless to buy into it!

 

Barnum was correct!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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