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sandragon

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Reply with quote  #26 
We get a positive or a negative but when positive UPENN looks at the percentage of cystine in the urine. That is what is meant by retesting and giving them the food info. It is to see if diet can lower the amount and control the cystine.
When they talk about chicken and that with the diet it is only to control a dog that is positive. If a dog is neg it can not get a positive reading no matter what its fed. If positive, diet can control the disease. Or that's my understanding anyway.

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HeartsDesire

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Reply with quote  #27 

The test will only tell us if there is cystine in the urine at the time of testing.  If you have a dog that has tested positive, change his diet and re-test and comes back negative then that tells you that you can control the cystine through diet and maybe prevent them from becoming stone formers.  It is to help treat and control the cystine.


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rainydaysmastiffs

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Reply with quote  #28 
It is my understanding from UPENN is there are some drugs and OTC supplements that can make the results come back awry and that is why it is so important to list EVERYTHING the dog is on so they are aware, ie, those supplements (like Nutrigrass) to prevent your lawn from being burned by the urine is made primarily out of cystine and methionine which can lead to the dog leaking leaking cystine which will cause the nitroprusside test to pick it up.


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Anita Sanders
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Teresa

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Reply with quote  #29 
Anita, maybe Anna May can ask her contact person about that one. I have not heard that. The only way I could make sense of that being the case is if those chemicals tie up the enzymes that scrub cysteine. If UPenn has it out there, I bet Anna May can let us know what their thoughts were along those lines.

I think Lori and Lynda answered the other question Karen ask...

LOVE that you guys are thinking about it and asking hard questions. I hope this dialog continues!!

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rainydaysmastiffs

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Reply with quote  #30 

Teresa,
I've got it straight from Angie (Huff) Erat
Metabolic Genetic Screening Laboratory
Matthew J. Ryan Veterinary Hospital
University of Pennsylvania
3900 Delancey Street Room 4027
Philadelphia, Pa 19104
(215) 573-7545 phone
(215) 573-2162 fax

This was shared with me by an owner. I am not at liberty to share the names, but this is the summary of an email she got from Angie.

Quote:
We have attached the urine cystinuria screening results for ______. He tested negative when off the supplement and positive when on the supplement. We appreciate you sending the paired samples and the ingredients of NutriGrass supplement. Based upon its content of cystine and methionine which can be converted to cystine, it is not surprising that our nitroprusside test could be positive while on this NutriGrass supplement.
Sincerely
Dr. Urs Giger and Angie

Here are the active ingredients per tablet of Nutrivet Green Grass:
dl-Methionine -- 133 mg
l-Cystine -- 10 mg
Pantothenic Acid -- 2 mg
Pyridoxine Hcl -- 1 mg
Thiamine Mononitrate -- 1 mg

The directions say to give 1 tablet per 20 lbs. of body weight.







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Anita Sanders
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Teresa

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Reply with quote  #31 

I'm not sure if that's who's heading up the current research group or not. Name isn't ringing a bell but there are alot of people involved. How current was that information? I'd like to learn more. Theoretically, even if you introduced Cysteine into the diet in large quantities, a normal dog should be able to scrub it out unless it was dangerous level, right? Kinda scary to use that on grass where the dogs are eating the grass...I learned something new today or am I misunderstanding what Nutrigrass is? Also, what other supplements were you told could interfere with the test? Thanks!


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Teresa

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Reply with quote  #32 

Okay, I just reread your post. So, nutrigrass is something you give the dog? ICK, don't think I'd give that. Oh well, the good thing in west Texas is there IS no grass to kill but the dog pee!!


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rainydaysmastiffs

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Reply with quote  #33 
Angie Huff Erat works with Dr Urs Giger who also is aware of this screening process and the results on this particular dog.  This was from an email dated Oct 8th, 2008. 

Nutrigrass is a supplement FED TO THE DOG to prevent the urine from burning the grass. It is sold by different various pet stores and online supply stores.

I don't know about the other supplements since this was discussing one particular dog and one particular case. 

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Anita Sanders
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Reply with quote  #34 

Thanks Anita. Very updated information that I had not heard.


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HeartsDesire

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Reply with quote  #35 

I believe that sulfa drugs can also cause a false result on the test.


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Harmony

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Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
We get a positive or a negative but when positive UPENN looks at the percentage of cystine in the urine. That is what is meant by retesting and giving them the food info. It is to see if diet can lower the amount and control the cystine.
When they talk about chicken and that with the diet it is only to control a dog that is positive. If a dog is neg it can not get a positive reading no matter what its fed. If positive, diet can control the disease. Or that's my understanding anyway.


Am I understanding this correctly?

A dog can test positive, the owner can get a positive result back, then is instructed by UPENN to change the diet and retest the dog, then the retest can come back negative and the breeder/dog gets a form saying negative?  Then what?  Does the breeder assume the food caused the problem?

What about following collection protocol.  Can a false positive or negative come back if the collection of urine protocol is not followed?

If I am reading some of the above posts correctly some are saying that once a positive test comes back - that's it!!!  THE DOG IS POSITIVE, even if a diet change is made, the dog is retested, say several times, and comes back negative - the one POSITIVE is the answer?  The rest is just management?



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HeartsDesire

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Reply with quote  #37 

Yes, Monica you are right.  UPENN says there are NO false positives.  The diet change and re-test is to help control the cystine and help prevent them from forming stones.  It is also to help them in their research to find a DNA marker for Cystinuria.


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rainydaysmastiffs

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Reply with quote  #38 

I have added the ingredients to the post above about the grass supplement and the screwed up results.


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toadhall

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Reply with quote  #39 
Quote:
Theoretically, even if you introduced Cysteine into the diet in large quantities, a normal dog should be able to scrub it out unless it was dangerous level, right?


maybe not? Maybe diet is the problem for some mastiffs. Maybe thats why they ask you to change the diet and retest in a week..

So what is the level of cystine that a normal functioning mastiffs kidneys can filter/tolerate?

How much cystine and/or methionine which can be converted to cystine, is in raw chicken/beef/lamb/fish or other proteins fed to mastiffs?

When is too much cystine in the diet just too much? and how long do you have to give them too much for it to have adverse affects on kidney metabolic function?

Do whole raw food proteins metabolise differently to processed kibble proteins?

Are any pet food producers also funding UPenns research? Is it independent research?

Have UPenn got a control group for their research?

too many questions... 

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Harmony

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Reply with quote  #40 
Okay, last question as this is all very new to me, well a lot of folks maybe, and I'm still absorbing some. 

If you do not follow proper collection protocol, could that cause a false POSITIVE or NEGATIVE? 

I know some geographical areas (like other countries) do not have a test yet and cannot get urine to a testing site before the urine was useless.  So, the best that can be done is to do a spin down on the urine at the time to make sure their are no crystals or stones.

Can anyone comment on this?


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Monica Coyle
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Harmony

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Reply with quote  #41 
Karen, those are all really good questions and it just does not appear to me that everyone is on the same page - i.e., a bad hip is a bad hip but with cystinuria - it seems there is a lot of room for interpretation and lets not forget pee is collected by the breeder WITHOUT MICRO CHIP VERIFICATION

And I am having a hard time grasping that  dog could test positive and then a week or two later negative and maybe go on to have multiple negatives. 

Is the test at UPENN really that sophisticated? 

Are they really that far along in the research?


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toadhall

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Reply with quote  #42 

well I  rang my vet to ask her about % levels of cystine in the urine and she said they couldn't test for it...the nitroprusside test dosn't give that information.


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sandragon

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Reply with quote  #43 
Look at it as diabetes. a normal person can eat sugar all day and NOT become a diabetic but a diabetic can control the disease with correct nutrition. It works the same wit Cystinuria. You can not make a dog have it with diet alone. you can control a C+ dog with diet.
You can get a false positive with the use of curtain sulfur base drugs and apparently this nutragrass stuff. You can also get false negatives. That is why dogs need to be tested yearly. Bitch always test negative regardless of being positive , carrier or not. For some reason only one bitch has ever tested positive and I would guess there was an issue with her sample. because no other bitch has ever tested positive even when she has thrown positive sons.

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sandragon

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Reply with quote  #44 
Quote:
breeder WITHOUT MICRO CHIP VERIFICATION .
 

yes but you can have your vet do it and verify microchip so if anyone asks you can prove it.. Thats what I would do,,

Quote:
And I am having a hard time grasping that  dog could test positive and then a week or two later negative and maybe go on to have multiple negatives. 


You are correct

Quote:
Is the test at UPENN really that sophisticated? 

No and several have asked that same question they have been collectly money and samples for over 10 years and they dont even have a better test yet. Thats why many are pushing to get another lab involved.
 
Quote:
Are they really that far along in the research?


NO


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Lorie
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rainydaysmastiffs

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Reply with quote  #45 
But UPENN is all we have at this point and as Lori Borden and other parents of C+ dogs can tell you, we have to do something, test somehow, screen the best we can to prevent the heartache of passing it on.


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Anita Sanders
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toadhall

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Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
i.e., a bad hip is a bad hip but with cystinuria - it seems there is a lot of room for interpretation and lets not forget pee is collected by the breeder WITHOUT MICRO CHIP VERIFICATION


Hi Monica..quite right..a false negative of sorts or distorts..lol
How are you going with your SI breeding plan?. Flick me an email..TTYS


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toadhall

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Reply with quote  #47 
Quote:
Look at it as diabetes. a normal person can eat sugar all day and NOT become a diabetic but a diabetic can control the disease with correct nutrition.


well I understood there is type A and B diabetes..one is genetic, the other is gradually caused by bad diet..and can be controlled by diet.

Where do you all think diseases like this come from? They have mostly developed/mutated in relationship with the environment you live in and food you eat.
Healthy populations of indigenous people living off their environment, have been researched to be free of many of these diseases until colonised...within 20 yrs of colonisation (changes to food and environment) statistically they have the same rates of diabetes, heart disease etc as the western world.
but have we humans learnt anything yet..apparently not!
What has changed for mastiffs in the last 20 yrs?


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HeartsDesire

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Reply with quote  #48 

As stated UPENN is all we have at this time.  As for, a bad hip is a bad hip, PennHip and I believe OFA state that only 25% of ALL dysplasia is inherited, that leaves 75%.


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Reply with quote  #49 
Hi Lynda,

Yes that makes sense, but that can also tie into the diet scenario with the C+.

Still - no one has answered about the collection process and if that could cause a problem with the test.

If someone does not collect properly could that alter a test?


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Monica Coyle
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HeartsDesire

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Reply with quote  #50 

Monica, UPENN states that yes improper collection can alter the test results.  Your concerns are honest ones that has gone through everyones mind at one time or another.  But at this time it is better then nothing.  All we can do is test, test, test and hope and pray they come up with a DNA marker soon.


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