Register  |   |   |  Calendar  |  Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 1 of 4      1   2   3   4   Next
lamars

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,309
Reply with quote  #1 

With all the talk of Cystinuria and the sharing of stories I thought I
would share my pedigrees.  I am sure some of you have been wandering
where Boomersmom aquired her Cystinuria positive Mastiff from. I am
more than happy to share that information with all as well as his
pedigree Ch.Lamars Blues Clues came from me. His sire is a dog Betsy
Harvey and I co-owned and came from a kennel in Little Rock Arkansas
Diamondhead Mastiffs." Drake" lived to be 10 years old tested negative
and never had an issue.  Below is " Blue's "pedigree the Mom is a girl I bred
Lamars  Pop the Cork. Both were tested and were negative. I felt so bad
for "Blue" coming down with this disease that not only did I pay for half
his first surgery I replaced him with the Beautiful Pistol my Stud pick
from a breeding with Lexus.
There is also another male that was C positive his name is Lamars Woofus Maximus  his pedigree is below also. Both were sired by Drake
and both the Dam pedigrees are similar althou I am happy to report I
have never had cystinuria before these breedings or since. Pure luck I suspect.:-)
  I just talked to"Woofie's " owner to get an update on him. He has
never had any symptoms he never formed stones or had any surgeries. I
wander how many positive dogs are from diet if they never have
symptoms. I had a friend who's dog tested positive than she changed to
lamb and tested 6 months later and he was negative he lived to 9 years
old and never had any symptoms on regular lamb & rice food.

I talked to Jan McName last night and she said her sire was also
negative.  So this makes me wander if both parents test negative and
some think as I do that the female throws it and females always test
negative now what?
Of course keep testing your dogs ,it is just very frustrating that
there does not seem to be any clear direction in which we are going.
Having dealt with PRA and that stigma of course I am not shouting this
from the roof tops at the same time I do not hide it I tell everyone
Blue has cystinuria .
I was talking to a friend the other day and as conversations do, it
came around to cystinuria I said how Blue has it and she said yes I
heard a rumor your line has cystinuria...
Well it is not a rumor it is true but when people say your LINES they
are of course talking about all your dogs. As I said  I have never had
a C+ dog with any of my other sires and  I have not had it before the
introduction of "Drake". Do I think Drake threw it? No. I think it was
a combination of those genes. Like dogs that throw one testicle my Vet
told me not to throw out the stud dog but dont do THAT cross again.
I dont think it is cut and dried that this one throws it or it is sex
linked but a bad mix is all.
But hey thats just my opinion and what do I know?
  I think if more people would share their pedigrees you will see it is
in almost everyones lines...
I more than happy to discuss this with
anyone who cares to. Althou I do not know much about how it is
inherited or passed on but who does?


I will continue to test my males but will not test females. Would I
ever breed to a dog that was not tested for C? Yes I would because even
if they are negative they can throw it so why would you pass up an
awesom stud dog?


Pedigree for Ch.Lamars Blues Clues
Mastiff Fawn Black Mask

Sire
Ch.LaPaw's Drake of Diamondhead
Sire
Int.Am.Ch. Groppetti Thorg of Windzor
Sire
Ch.Semper Fi Groppetti Gargoyle
Sire
Ch.Deer Run Semper Fi Thor
Dam
Dee Run Semper Fi Kerra ,CD
Dam
Groppetti Tug Boat Annie
Sire
Deer Run No more Mr Nice Guy
Dam
Groppetti Carmel
Dam
Lady Roweena of Flintcreek
Sire
Greco's Falmore Bonner
Sire
Ch.Falmorhall Fortescue
Dam
Ch.Greco's Sacha Sarele
Dam
Rachel Renee Hogan
Sire
Ch.Greco's Hollesley Rogue
Dam
Greco's Saint Renne Spot
Dam
Lamars Pop The Cork
Sire
Lamars Gardenator
Sire
Ch.Paxrivers Dozer by Sidetrack
Sire
Ch.Deer Run River Bull
Dam
Ch.Sidetrack Farm Beatrice
Dam
Ch.Lamars Sassy Sandy Savy
Sire
Lamars Brandon Le' Moose
Dam
Knightsen's Muir Oaks Sophie
Dam
Lamars Sunny Delight
Sire
Ch.Lamars JJ Wilder C.G.C.
Sire
Lamars Brandon Le' Moose
Dam
Knightsens Muir Oaks Sophie
Dam
Ch.MGM Greta Garbo
Sire
Ch.Justamere Mbojo of Lion Kop
Dam
Ch.RoyalOak MGM Tamara By TJ


__________________
Margo
LAMARS Mastiffs
lamarsmastiffs.com
0
cariston

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,617
Reply with quote  #2 
Margo,


This is fantastic info!!!   Thanks for clarifying... There are so many pet and breeding dogs with Cystinuria right now and because there is no DNA carrier test as of yet, all we can do is test our dogs to see if they are positive....  We need more breeders like yourself to step up and fully disclose any info of any dogs that have turned up C+  or if they have ever had any C + dogs in their pedigrees.. This type of information is TRULY beneficial to the health and betterment of our breed... Thanks so much, this is awesome !!


__________________
cariston durden
0
Teresa

Registered:
Posts: 1,345
Reply with quote  #3 
Hi Margo. Thanks for sharing. I know it can't be easy!
Quote:
  I think if more people would share their pedigrees you will see it is
in almost everyones lines...

Yes, I think the more people that share, the more we will see that none of us are immune no matter how hard we try to avoid it.

Jan is a wealth of knowledge on the subject and has been a great help to me in learning..

As for using tested boy, I probably will only use only tested boys when possible. At the very least, I'll use boys that lived to a ripe old age (frozen semen). Teresa

__________________
http://www.oasismastiffs.com
http://www.mastiffchat.com
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #4 

Quote:

Would I
ever breed to a dog that was not tested for C? Yes I would because even
if they are negative they can throw it so why would you pass up an
awesom stud dog?



But what if he would have tested positive?

Your cavalier approach cannot convey proper procedure, in order to reduce the number of affected dogs being bred!

We need to test ALL dogs!

Otherwise, we are passing on potential issues to an unsuspecting purchaser!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
Sheri

Registered:
Posts: 117
Reply with quote  #5 
Margo,

It takes an incredibly courageous person to post pedigrees of the affected dog.  Thank you so much for contributing to the search for answers.  You're awesome

Thank you,
Sheri

0
lamars

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,309
Reply with quote  #6 
Steve as always a fountain of information and constructive critiscism.  I am NOT Cavalier. YOU have NO clue what REAL BREEDERS go thru I went thru the PRA WAR and I will not defend myself to YOU or anyone.!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I shared my pedigrees YOU ARE WELCOME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AS I said these are MY thoughts .

BTW this info was not for YOU who does NOT breed Mastiffs ok ??????????

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveoifer

Quote:

Would I
ever breed to a dog that was not tested for C? Yes I would because even
if they are negative they can throw it so why would you pass up an
awesom stud dog?



But what if he would have tested positive?

Your cavalier approach cannot convey proper procedure, in order to reduce the number of affected dogs being bred!

We need to test ALL dogs!

Otherwise, we are passing on potential issues to an unsuspecting purchaser!


__________________
Margo
LAMARS Mastiffs
lamarsmastiffs.com
0
Teresa

Registered:
Posts: 1,345
Reply with quote  #7 
Margo, most of us sincerely appreciate your courage..

Steve, PLEASE be careful about biting those that are trying to help. I have spoken with Margo on multiple occasions and I can tell you she really cares. I feel fairly sure that she would pass on a definate positive dogs. However, there are many boys out there that are frozen that we just don't know about. Would I pass on those? Not if they lived to a ripe old age and had no problems.... 

__________________
http://www.oasismastiffs.com
http://www.mastiffchat.com
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #8 
No Margo, it's not OK!

You still avoided the question!

I'm glad that you shared your pedigrees and worked on PRA.

Why would you not want dogs tested for Cystinuria that you were looking to breed with?

You're a breeder that many people can learn from, so why take that position when every researcher is telling us to test our dogs before breeding?

Getting angry at me isn't going to address what you stated!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #9 
Teresa,

Margo didn't speak about frozen, she spoke about not passing on an awesome stud dog that wasn't tested, because he could be negative and throw C anyway.

Therefore, why test!

My question was... what if he was tested and was found positive?

It seems to be in keeping with Margo's prior examples of her willing to breed dogs that may not have good hips, since those dogs can produce get with good hips.

The pattern seems to be, if it can't be 100% tested with certainty, then all testing is basically a waste of time, or inconclusive!

Perhaps Margo can explain her views to others, since in her opinion I'm not worthy of a response!



__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
Teresa

Registered:
Posts: 1,345
Reply with quote  #10 

I can only speak for myself and I'm a "newbie" by many standards, but my stance is not to breed to untested boys who are still alive and well. My reasoning is based on several facts. The main fact is there are no hard and fast "facts" (genetically speaking). I know I haven't been around long enough to "watch" lines and know what travels where, so my option to "longevity" in the breed is to rely on health testings. At the end of the day, I just want to do what I feel is right and what I can be comfortable with ....


__________________
http://www.oasismastiffs.com
http://www.mastiffchat.com
0
cariston

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,617
Reply with quote  #11 
Steve:  Your points are valid, but can also be presented at a later time...

One breeder has stepped up and stated her position and has shared pedigrees and has opened up to possible rumours...  Thats a good start.



One step at a time!              


I hope more breeders/mastiff owners/previous breeders and or mastiff owners can share information and pedigree info regarding their experience in owning or breeding a C+ dog.




This should not be taken lightly, but in having said that this information should strictly be shared as a common grounds to better the breed without slandering each other.   Weve got a major crisis in regards to this potentially nasty disease with no trace or backround of where it came from or how it started with the exception of our own suspicions  and heresay...


Let the truth be told yes, but lets not chastize or make fuss with people coming out in all honesty in betterment for our breed. 




__________________
cariston durden
0
margelutz

Registered:
Posts: 444
Reply with quote  #12 
C? Yes I would because even
if they are negative they can throw it so why would you pass up an
awesome stud dog?


Hi Margo :>)
That's pretty awesome that you put up the pedigrees .
But I have to agree ,with Steve on this , None  of  us should breed to a untested Dog that could  be a positive for Cystinuria .

I know the tests are not even close to 100% right .
But its the best we have for now   So i would like to think
That breeders as well as owners would test their Males for it .

Don't get upset over your Boy being a positive , It was not your fault ,cause you or any of us had no idea ,it was  getting so prevalent in the breed .

But now that we know ,to test at least yearly after 18 months .
That's the best we can do ,I hope you agree with that ? :>)

I honestly mean this in the nicest way .

Marge



__________________
lutz96@windstream.net
0
margelutz

Registered:
Posts: 444
Reply with quote  #13 
for "Blue" coming down with this disease that not only did I pay for half
his first surgery I replaced him with the Beautiful Pistol my Stud pick
from a breeding with Lexus.

 
Margo ,
Not many breeders would have done that
Marg e

__________________
lutz96@windstream.net
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #14 

Quote:

The main fact is there are no hard and fast "facts" (genetically speaking).



Actually, there are hard and fast facts genetically speaking. It's just that they haven't been pinpointed.....yet!

The whole reason for testing males is that THEY are the ONLY ones that can be tested with some degree of certainty!

When I became involved in cancer research in the 90's, I had no prior involvement with cancer research. Yet I had meetings with researchers from NYU and Australia, in order to discuss a new method in melanoma treatments. When I was involved in shark cartilage research, I met with researchers involved with the study and it's use in human cancers.

So what?

My other past involvements mean nothing, if I'm talking about Cystinuria prevention TODAY.

I'm glad that Margo was involved with PRA and other activities, but that doesn't mean that it's therefore acceptable to make an erroneous comment about not testing males for C if they "feel" it's OK.

I've even questioned some President's remarks, so why can't Margo be challenged on a position she might have?

Look, a number of people are attempting to get many others to test their dogs before breeding them for Cystinuria.

A lot of time and effort has been put into this to get the "word" out, since many fanciers were not familiar with the process and cystinurias ramifications.

The last thing we need is for an established breeder to state that she would breed to an untested dog. It gives "permission" for others to do the same!

Cystinuria isn't going to go away by itself. Responsible fanciers & breeders have to fully understand the process in trying to reduce it's occurrence, and then employ those measures, in order to work with the best, present, available procedures in testing.





__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
Teresa

Registered:
Posts: 1,345
Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Actually, there are hard and fast facts genetically speaking. It's just that they haven't been pinpointed.....yet!


 SYMANTICS!!! SHEESH!! LOL...

I do understand what you are saying here Steve. However, Margo is one of the ones doing the testing on her boys, so I can't knock her at all. Would she breed to an untested boy if she thought there was something awesome to gain? That is totally her call. And, it's up to her puppy buyers if they bought from such a breeding. If I know Margo like I think I do, I do believe she's "into" full disclosure. I'm sure she knows MUCH, MUCH more about backgrounds than me. As for me, my choice is that I can't. Why? Because it makes me terribly uncomfortable to "chance it" because I AM newer and don't like "risk"....Besides, if all the awesome stud dog owners tested their boys, we wouldn't HAVE to have these discussions! Can we agree on this point Steve?!

__________________
http://www.oasismastiffs.com
http://www.mastiffchat.com
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #16 
It's strange how "rumors" can evoke full disclosures. Damage control is fine with me and like I said, I'm glad that Margo came forward.

Everyone can justify a breeding.

What is awesome to one, may not be to another.

Therefore, as long as it's an "awesome" dog, we can justify not testing before breeding to it?

Either we're all on the same page and we get cystinuria levels to slow it's spread, or we take separate pages and watch cystinuria multiply!

Your choice and like Margo stated..... I don't breed!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
Teresa

Registered:
Posts: 1,345
Reply with quote  #17 

STEVE, you didn't answer my question! I'm so hurt....


__________________
http://www.oasismastiffs.com
http://www.mastiffchat.com
0
Patti

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,368
Reply with quote  #18 
If you have an "awesome stud dog" that you really want to breed to, that is not tested yet... wouldn't the simple solution be to just ask the stud owners to test? It's easy, inexpensive, and you get results pretty quickly.

Why not ???



__________________
Patti Wilkinson
Rising Star Mastiffs
0
lamars

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,309
Reply with quote  #19 
Patti I guess it is the same as when I wanted to breed to a certain stud dog and the co-owner who had posession of the dog did not want to pay for the PRA test so I paid for it. Why wouldnt she pay for it???
It is their choice I did not have to use that stud dog but I did and I must say I am glad I did...And many people did after that.
But thanks for your point of view.


__________________
Margo
LAMARS Mastiffs
lamarsmastiffs.com
0
Comstock

Registered:
Posts: 851
Reply with quote  #20 
Hi Margo,

Thanks for coming forward about Blue...I had no idea who Rosemary was referring to and I remember Blue showing as a puppy, as well as his sire being handled by Rick.  I think I even remember your Pop the Cork...a nice tanky girl.

Though both parents tested negative, was the dam bred more than once and were there any more C+ offspring from those breedings?  If Cystinuria is truly sex-linked, then Drake could not have passed it on to his to his sons...only the dam.  As we know, all the females are testing negative and their silent carrier status is a big part of the problem in stopping Cystinuria.

Like you, I know PRA only too well.  However, I would not breed to an untested dog, or even a young, tested dog at this point in time.  I would sure want to know the status of any female's male relatives as well.  IMO, the longer we take to make those kind of decisions, the more entrenched Cystinuria becomes in our breed.

__________________
Caroline Tobin
Comstock Mastiffs
http://www.comstockmastiffs.net
0
Highlander

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 5,206
Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
I wanted to breed to a certain stud dog and the co-owner who had posession of the dog did not want to pay for the PRA test so I paid for it. Why wouldnt she pay for it???
 


Thank you Margo....I would not have my beautiful Raye......

__________________
Steph
"The superior man is modest in his speech but excels in his actions" Confucius
"Leadership is based on inspiration, not domination; on cooperation not intimidation. - William Arthur Wood

This post may not be forwarded, copied, transmitted, or reprinted without the permission of the sender
0
Teresa

Registered:
Posts: 1,345
Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
If you have an "awesome stud dog" that you really want to breed to, that is not tested yet... wouldn't the simple solution be to just ask the stud owners to test? It's easy, inexpensive, and you get results pretty quickly.

Why not ???



Been there, done that and was told no...oh well, I tried and passed on the breeding. Again, just not a risk I'm willing to shoulder! It's bad enough to worry about the girls being silent carriers, but I really don't want to take the responsibility for having a test available, not using it and THEN find out he's positive and I'm responsible!!

__________________
http://www.oasismastiffs.com
http://www.mastiffchat.com
0
Patti

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,368
Reply with quote  #23 
Your welcome Margo...yes, we are all entitled to our "point of view"

I guess you are trying to attack, but I will say Thank you for paying for that PRA test for whoever it was. What does that have to do with me?
My post was not directed at you or anyone in particular....more to the mastiff community. We ALL need to be proactive ! Don't you agree?
I know you have tested your boys, I have too. THAT'S what I'm talking about.

What is the harm in what I said? No need to take offense.
If we are going to eradicate this nasty disease, why not test?

We as bitch owners, yes, me included, have the option of breeding to any dog as long as the stud owner agrees. I just don't see a negative in asking for results or if they haven't tested yet, just ask...simple as that :-)




__________________
Patti Wilkinson
Rising Star Mastiffs
0
Patti

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,368
Reply with quote  #24 
I really don't want to take the responsibility for having a test available, not using it and THEN find out he's positive and I'm responsible!!

I totally agree Teresa! Good way to put it :-)


__________________
Patti Wilkinson
Rising Star Mastiffs
0
HarmonyMastiffs

Registered:
Posts: 665
Reply with quote  #25 
I really appreciate you posting the pedigrees up Margo.  It is so important to see these pedigrees and for breeders to come forward with them because we do not have a DNA maker and like Caroline says below :

I
Quote:
If Cystinuria is truly sex-linked, then Drake could not have passed it on to his to his sons...only the dam.  As we know, all the females are testing negative and their silent carrier status is a big part of the problem in stopping Cystinuria.


So, if this disease is sex linked it is true then that a male with Cystinuria CANNOT PASS IT TO HIS SON, ONLY THE DAM CAN PASS TO THE SON???  So,  that means accepting that C+ is sex related a DAM IS THE ONLY PARENT WHO CAN PASS TO THE MALE?  I just want to make sure I understand this completely....

This is a huge problem and if and until we have a DNA marker and can test the females we have to tract the pedigrees because they are potentially the much more lethal of the mates in passing this disease, yet they cannot be tested.  So scary!

With that said, would I breed to an untested male NO.  Why would a breeder with a fabulous male who could add wonderfully to the breed get their hackles up and refuse to breed to a bitch when asked to test her dog is beyond me - yes I heard of that happening recently and what a shame. 

The mind starts to spend when keeping up with all this.  I feel the pedigrees are huge in helping folks make better breeding choices.  Of course testing and abstaining from breeding to untested males as well!

__________________
Monica Coyle
Harmony Mastiffs
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:


THANK YOU FOR VISITING OUR BOARD!!