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Teresa

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Reply with quote  #26 

Hey Monica...NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING, is 100% sure as far as what we KNOW about Cystinuria and its genetics. Steve's right. The answer is out there some where, but just not HERE and NOW. All we can do is test the boys and "assume" some on the girls, so YES, it's scary. The only thing we CAN do is test the boys, don't breed to positive boys and PRAY ALOT!


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lamars

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Reply with quote  #27 
"It's strange how "rumors" can evoke full disclosures. Damage control is fine with me and like I said, I'm glad that Margo came forward."


And we wander why more breeders are not open and forthcoming with information. Thanks Steve  for yet again being an impartial caring individual with the best interest of the Breed in your heart... Just keep that positive attitude.

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HarmonyMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #28 
Thanks Teresa - I am staying pretty on top of this stuff - I think but I wasn't sure if was confirmed that if this is sex linked that means males CAN ONLY get the C from the dams.  In other words if you have a C+ male you would (given it being a sex linked related disease, which we don't know yet) automatically look to the dam and then on up to the grandsire/dam OMG!

I hope they find the marker soon....

So sad to hear the stories like Blue's and Rosemary's, so sad to see the community split by not knowing and so sad to see excellent breeding stock that could potentially not be that at all or that folks would chance on because they just cannot pass on the quality (-) the health... 

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cariston

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patti
If you have an "awesome stud dog" that you really want to breed to, that is not tested yet... wouldn't the simple solution be to just ask the stud owners to test? It's easy, inexpensive, and you get results pretty quickly.

Why not ???


 



Hey Patti,   althought this makes perfectly good sense to me, this has been attempted and some may think theyre above it all and will become affended if you ask.....(FMPE)

Youd be surprised at who gets "jumpy"






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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #30 
Teresa,

I thought your "question" was rhetorical!

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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
In other words if you have a C+ male you would (given it being a sex linked related disease, which we don't know yet) automatically look to the dam and then on up to the grandsire/dam OMG!


Monica,

I believe you mean the grand-dam's/dam.

If this is X-linked, then it's the bottom half of the pedigree that is in question in male positives. Or, have I misunderstood your meaning?



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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
BTW this info was not for YOU who does NOT breed Mastiffs ok ??????????


Margo,

No need for sarcasm, I get your message loud & clear!

Even though I don't cook and I'm not a chef, I still advocate health inspections of restaurants.

It protects those who eat out and even if I were to never eat out, it would still protect members of my "family" who do eat out!

If we make "exceptions", then when someone comes down with salmonella poisoning, who should we blame?

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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cariston

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Reply with quote  #33 






Even though I don't cook and I'm not a chef, I still advocate health inspections of restaurants.




Steve, what do you mean you dont cook?   Lol

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Tracy

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Reply with quote  #34 
I for one applaud margo for coming out with the fact, and the pedigree behind it. It stops that entire witch hunt scenario that played out on another board, where friends turned into enemies, and many ties in this community where broken by some, who in there anger could not see beyond their immediate goals to what was best for the entire mastiff community.
Truth begins in your heart, and the ability to stand up and say it aloud is defined in your integrity. I for one applaud  than those who have stepped up, and identified a problem within your line, and have taken steps to make sure it doesn't happen again.
There doesn't seem to be a definitive answer as to the mode of transmission of C+. It might be sex linked ( Males are affected, females are carriers), it may be linked to color ( a theory that I had heard about), it may be just a combination of the above two, and another factor no one has discovered yet. Those who breed have a duty to test, to prevent the heartache that goes along with getting an affected dog. The burden is great, financially, emotionally etc.  Testing will not prevent an affected male from coming from a breeding of tested parents, but it would seem to at least narrow the possibility down. From what I have read, testing before 18 months doesn't seem to give as many positive results as testing later in the age spectrum, there does seem to be a role in nutrition as far as forcing a borderline C dog into coming out as a c+ dog. Right now there are to many variables to eliminate, but at least we know we can narrow down the probability by eliminating those who are affected.

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emarsh

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Reply with quote  #35 
Thanks Margo for stepping up and personalizing - it is the people - and most especially breeders - with positives in dogs they have been associated with that will make the difference. That you have chosen to post this info speaks highly of your willingness to be open and straight. 

Erika M.


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lamars

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Reply with quote  #36 
Simply for the sake of discussion because we all know that is what you like to do..:-)  Ok so you test your males they come up negative and still throw it. Do you than not breed any dogs out of this male? If like some think the female tends to throw it do you breed to a female who's littermate brother had C+  ?
DO you breed to a female who has C+ top & bottom in their pedigree?
Lets say a dog tested negative but his brother was positive would you breed to the negative?
There are so many other scenarios than just saying I wont breed to a dog that is not tested but you would breed to a bitch who's littermate has C+...

Where do you draw the line? Stud dog owners need to be as vigil as bitch owners. IMO

So you breed to a bitch who's littermate brother has C+ one of those male pups comes down with it your stud dog is negative who gets the blame for that one?

I feel C+ is similar to Cancer it is predisposed in lines and a certain combination will throw it. I feel we need to put this much energy into Cancer research which is just as prevalent and deadly in our breed. How many have lost Mastiffs to cancer and how many to C+.

I am not saying you personally Steve but throwing out the scenario...



Quote:
Originally Posted by steveoifer
Quote:
BTW this info was not for YOU who does NOT breed Mastiffs ok ??????????


Margo,

No need for sarcasm, I get your message loud & clear!

Even though I don't cook and I'm not a chef, I still advocate health inspections of restaurants.

It protects those who eat out and even if I were to never eat out, it would still protect members of my "family" who do eat out!

If we make "exceptions", then when someone comes down with salmonella poisoning, who should we blame?

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lamars

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Reply with quote  #37 
Marge I want to thank you for your posts and I do know what you mean and thanks for saying it in the nicest way possible.:-)

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Margo
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #38 

Simply for the sake of discussion because we all know that is what you like to do..:-) Nice lead in! Ok so you test your males they come up negative and still throw it. Do you than not breed any dogs out of this male? Well if you know that they are throwing it, then why would you continue to use the dog? The dog can't pass it on to his sons, so you can in fact use them!If like some think the female tends to throw it do you breed to a female who's littermate brother had C+  ? If the brother was positive, then the sister is a potential carrier. If you want to reduce the insidence of Cystinuria, the responsible thing is to not breed the sister.
DO you breed to a female who has C+ top & bottom in their pedigree? If it's there and close up, then the answer is... no!
Lets say a dog tested negative but his brother was positive would you breed to the negative? No, because there is a high probability that he is positive as well.
There are so many other scenarios than just saying I wont breed to a dog that is not tested but you would breed to a bitch who's littermate has C+...I wouldn't!

Where do you draw the line? Stud dog owners need to be as vigil as bitch owners. IMO They can't, as bitches don't test positive...yet!

So you breed to a bitch who's littermate brother has C+ one of those male pups comes down with it your stud dog is negative who gets the blame for that one? The breeder that used the bitch knowing that the brother was C+!

I feel C+ is similar to Cancer it is predisposed in lines and a certain combination will throw it. Cancer is not just one disease. The genetics are much different and the causes are much broader. I feel we need to put this much energy into Cancer research which is just as prevalent and deadly in our breed. How many have lost Mastiffs to cancer and how many to C+. The reasoning there is not valid, in that you won't get a cure for cancer with a few hundred thousand dollars thrown at it, but you have an excellent chance of finding the DNA markers for Cystinuria, with a limited amount of funds needed to do that research! There are many worthy battles to fight when it comes to disease. I like to fight battles that can be won, with the least amount of resources needed to engage the enemy! 
I am not saying you personally Steve but throwing out the scenario...Nice try Margo!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Mitzi

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Reply with quote  #39 
Call me crazy, but I think that the bitch-owners have the power to stop this disease.
Do not breed a bitch who has any C+ males in her pedigree....PERIOD
Do not breed to any young studs under 4
Do not breed to an untested male
Do not breed to a C+ male (even if he has been tested multiple time and only tested positive once)

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margelutz

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Reply with quote  #40 

Call me crazy,
 
Nope Mitzi ,your not NUTZ:>)
Marg e

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Comstock

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Reply with quote  #41 
Hello,

With the information we have now, it would appear that Cystinuria is sex-linked in Mastiffs, as well as a few other breeds.  If I understand what that means, C+ males will make ALL their female offspring carriers.  Very scary and a good reason for breeders to want to know the cystinuria status of potential stud dogs and at what age they were tested.  No responsible stud dog owner would object to testing or retesting if asked by a breeder.  I was asked to retest Lucah at 4-1/2 years since his previous test was at 16 months along with the rest of his litter.  I had no idea that testing needed to be done as the dog ages, but I certainly didn't have trouble complying and tested his brother as well.  Just to be certain, he and 2 brothers were tested again after 6 years.  All negative, all eating chicken based diets.

If the dam is a carrier, potentially half of her male offspring will be affected and half of her female offspring could be carriers.  Since we don't have a screening test for females, knowing the cystinuria status of her sire and full and half brothers is important.  If her sire is C+, then she is a carrier and would be out of my breeding program.  If she has positive brothers or half brothers she is potentially a carrier and would be one I would only consider breeding to a stud that was clear after 4 years and came from a clear sire/dam.  That is the only way I can see to not throw out an entire breeding program with the limited testing we now have available to us.

Given how big a problem Cystinuria is becoming in our breed, why would anyone not test before breeding?  Why would any breeder not insist that the dog be tested, regardless of who pays for it?

Though diet and sulfa drugs/supplements may play a part, so far I'm hearing they do not turn a Cystinuria negative dog positive.  Though many of the C+ males do not form stones, they are still C+ and can still make all their female offspring carriers. 

My hope would be that all breeders would be proactive about testing results and notifying puppy owners when they find a problem.  The sooner we get blood from affected lines to UPenn, the sooner we will get some answers.



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HeartsDesire

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Reply with quote  #42 
Margo,
I to applaud you.  You have done what a responsible and ethical breeder would do.  You helped take care of your puppy and puppy buyer.  You have also given full disclosure on the matter. 

Steve, I believe it was you who was caviler about Cystinuria last year when I brought it up on the Dysplasia thread. 



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Teresa

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Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
Do not breed a bitch who has any C+ males in her pedigree....PERIOD
Do not breed to any young studs under 4
Do not breed to an untested male
Do not breed to a C+ male (even if he has been tested multiple time and only tested positive once)

 

Hi Mitzi,
  I wish I could agree with you on all counts, but I can't. After looking at MANY pedigrees (and many lines) and truly taking a huge interest in curbing C+, I assure you that to never breed any females with it anywhere in there pedigree is darned near impossible if not impossible. Most people do not really comprehend how wide spread this ALREADY is and how often it's been covered up in past pedigrees. If it was still relatively uncommon and there was a DNA test, you'd be absolutely right on all counts, but that's just not what we are dealing with. As for studs, I agree with under 3, but not 4. Also, I watch the testing for my girl's brothers. Is it a guarantee? Nope, but it's better than nothing. I definitely agree with do not breed to untested males. My exception would be frozen semen on a dog long gone but lived to a ripe old age with no problems and even that would be a bit scary. Finally, I TOTALLY agree with the last statement. No test, no stud fee, no breeding.

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #44 
Good posts Caroline & Teresa!

Lynda,

It's always best to be able to validate something said that's dumb and without you being able to prove your empty accusation, it remains just that....empty!!

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Kiokeemastiffs

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Reply with quote  #45 
  Thank you Margo for being honest and upfront.  I have nothing but respect for you speaking up and taking a stand.

Folks, instead of inferring alternate MOTIVES for this disclosure--please use it as an example.  If we all test our dogs and share ALL testing results--we can all learn.

   For myself--I will not be using any outside stud dog that is not at least 4 years old and that has not had a recent Cystinuria test.  I would prefer to see the  test results of puppies that he has produced--I would prefer to see the test results from the grandsons of his daughters!  I want to see the test results of his dam's sire!  You can't just look at the result of just one dog to determine IF that line is "clear".

I would be leary of using any brother of a C+ dog--it may be that his littermate has just not developed any symptoms!  If a dog's dam had any brothers C+--I would not use him.

Would I breed a bitch who has a littermate brother who are C+--No.  The risk is too great that she could be a carrier.  I would spay ALL litter sisters to a C+ male and NEVER breed them. PERIOD.

IF cystinuria is a sex-linked genetic trait  as we now believe--it's the females who are the "silent" carriers.  IF I had breed a male who at a later date shows up positive (after the breeding)--I do feel comfortable keeping a male that I would continue to test at least yearly.  If all tests were negative up to age 4--then I would use him.

This next statement is priobably going to set a few tail feathers on fire--but here it goes.   I am not pointing any fingers at anyone--I am just stating my opinion and beliefs.

IMO--modifying a diet (using lamb and rice and not feeding chicken)  is a TREATMENT  that prevents the development of cystinuria symptoms (I.E alters the results of the cysitiuria  test).  So if one modifys the diet and produces a negative test from a previously positve dog--you are just hiding the fact that your dog IS POSITIVE and has cystinuria.

If your dog produces a C+ test on a chicken based diet--or while on Vit. C supplements--your dog is POSITIVE.

What's wrong with altering the diet??  Your "stud" dog may live a long, healthy life and may never have any life threatening symptoms, but he will pass on this trait to ALL his daughters--who will then produce POSITIVE sons.  These dogs could have a much more severe case of cystinuria that CAN NOT be controlled by diet alone!  You have simply hide this jhealth risk and have now passed it on to TWO more generations.

  It's is going to take breeders making hard decisions about their lines to get some control to the spread of Cystinuria in our dogs until we do have a DNA test.  You can hide it for a while--but it will surface and show up in succeding generations.

Would I use an untested dog? No.  I would ask the owner to test if they are unwilling to test--I would pass on breeding to that dog.  That has always been my personal policy r/t to hips and elbows--and it will be my policy for cystinuria and CMR.



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Teresa

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Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
IMO--modifying a diet (using lamb and rice and not feeding chicken)  is a TREATMENT  that prevents the development of cystinuria symptoms (I.E alters the results of the cysitiuria  test).  So if one modifys the diet and produces a negative test from a previously positve dog--you are just hiding the fact that your dog IS POSITIVE and has cystinuria.

If your dog produces a C+ test on a chicken based diet--or while on Vit. C supplements--your dog is POSITIVE.



Couldn't agree with you more! And saying that a dog was "slightly positive" and on an altered diet was negative is like saying that someone is "slightly" pregnant but after 9 months they were all better!!!

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HeartsDesire

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Reply with quote  #47 

Well Steve dumb is not the worst I have been called.  As far as proof, I am sure the people that emailed and called me will remember your remarks.  I am sorry that you think you must name call and bash to make your point.  Seems I am not the empty one here.  Please continue with your bullie tactics I will not post on this thread any longer. 


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #48 

Lynda,

I didn't call you dumb, I said what you said was dumb. There's a difference!

You decided to enter the fray, I didn't seek you out, you sought me!

Please spare me the support system of "others" who remember my "attitude"!

A cheap tactic to smear someone without hard evidence!

I also said that your accusation was empty, I didn't call you empty!

Best to review your own tactics first, before examining mine and then labeling them "bullie tactics"!



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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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cariston

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Reply with quote  #49 
Do not breed to any young studs under 4


Mitzi- No one would wait till a stud is 4 to breed to that dog.. Thats unlikely and imo a waste to own a potential breeding dog after a dog has been tested for C and comes up negative and lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.. There is other health tests to consider such as hips/elbows/eyes/cardiac, to say the least!

Some mastiffs dont even make it to 4, they could have something happen to them unexpectedly, but have passed all areas of being health tested and not have had the opportunity to reproduce themselves or better...

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cariston

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Reply with quote  #50 
Ok, lol now after re reading some posts...

Caroline and Catie Arney,  why do you wait 4 years of testing for C+  in potential breeding males to breed them?


Is it a bad thing to breed to a dog thats under 4 years old that has been tested and come up negative??

What is the harm in breeding to a dog that has tested negative for C+  at 2 or 3 years of age??


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