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Comstock

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Reply with quote  #51 
Hi Cariston,

If you are concerned about losing a potential stud dog before 4 years of age, collect and store.  With all the information out there now about Cystinuria not showing up in dogs under 18 months and the need to retest, there really isn't any good reason to use or to breed to a young dog.  If you use a young dog and keep females from the breeding, you run the risk of destroying your breeding program before it gets started should that young male come up positive after 2 or 3 years of age.  All your females would be carriers...end of breeding program.  If you breed to someone else's untested stud, you could end up with carrier females should that dog be C+...end of your breeding program.

If you use your stud with a female from a C+ stud you will end up with C+ males from that breeding...end of stud career.  Don't count on people realizing it isn't the fault of the stud dog.

The bottom line is everyone needs to test their Mastiffs, especially the dogs.  IMO, the same advise about PRA applies to Cystinuria....breed carefully and less.

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JenniferCairns

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Reply with quote  #52 
Even though Im not breeding I thank you for posting this info.  It may mean that more breeders will come forward with their info too.  That really sucks that people were whispering behind your back about your dog.  Im sorry that your baby has C+.  I hope that he remains stone free for life. 

Should people who just own and don't breed be testing their dogs too?  Would it help or make a difference in the research if I did test Moose.  Would I be doing Moose a favor if I tested him, or does it even matter since I'm not breeding him.  If I should test can a regular vet test or is there a specialist he would need to see?




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cariston

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Reply with quote  #53 
Thank you for clarifying caroline....

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cariston durden
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Teresa

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Reply with quote  #54 
Oh Judi, I'm so glad you asked what FMPE meant. I think it means "from my personal experience".

YES, pet owners should test too. The more data we accumulate, the better!

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Mitzi

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Reply with quote  #55 

Great point Jennifer! Most mastiffs are in pet homes.... Yes, pet owners should test too. Absolutely! Thats why we are having testing at the Northern Ohio Mastiff Picnic which is mostly pet owners. http://mastiffpicnic.com/


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margelutz

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Reply with quote  #56 
HI Margo :>)
How old were the Boys ,when they came up postive??

Were they older .than 5 yrs??
Thanks Marg e

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lamars

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Reply with quote  #57 
No Marge they were both around 2 years old when diagnosed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by margelutz
HI Margo :>)
How old were the Boys ,when they came up postive??

Were they older .than 5 yrs??
Thanks Marg e

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Margo
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margelutz

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Reply with quote  #58 

No Marge they were both around 2 years old when diagnosed.
 
Thanks Margo :>)
So then we can think on testing at 18 months or 2 yrs old ??
would be the best time ?
 
With this kind of info ,coming out ,from positives.  We can learn so much more .
 
We have been so behind all these years , in thinking we should test when Pups ,and then forget about it . :>)
 
And now we find that we should have been testing at least 18months old ,for the last few years .
 
 
Thanks
Marge

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Kiokeemastiffs

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Reply with quote  #59 
  Sadly, a male maybe negative at 1, 2 and 3 years of age--and then show up positive after age 4.  I want at least one test done after the age of 3 for my own piece of mind.  Many stone formers do not manifest untill after the age of 4--it's the formation of the stones that makes the test be positive. 

FYI--only 1 in 6 positive male will form stones--so that is another reason for continued testing of all males used in breedings.

As far as not waiting to breed to a male untill age 4--if the dog dies and is gone before age of 4 due to some health related issue--then I DEFINATELY don't want to breed to him!  I also don't want to breed to a dog that produces temperament issues, CMR, CHD, ED, cardiac problems, auto-immune problems, or epilepsy!

There are several genetic issues that may wait until a dog "matures" before manifesting symptoms--thyroid problems, Epilepsy, cystinuria, and a few other auto-immune issues. ALL of these serious health issues are often known to manifest after the age of 2.

So if you breed to that young 2 year old male--and then later one of more of these problems show up in him; you may potientially have more than one breeding from him!  So now most of your current generation of dogs could potientially have a genetic issue.  You now have a major problem to fix.  Could you breed to correct it?  Or would you just quit and start over?

IMO--we would best be served to wait untill a male is 4 to breed to him.  Sure, collect him and store him.  If issues show up--dump the frozen.
By breeding to a 5-8 year old male--we do have the opportunity to assess his daughters and grandsons for cystinuria.  In this case later is better.

Now is this based on documented evidence?  No.  It just my assessment and opinion and a plan I have devised to follow to try and avoid producing C+ dogs.

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Cathy (Catie) C. Arney
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margelutz

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Reply with quote  #60 
Hi
I used to belong to a list ,that had genetic  , vets id guess they were :>)

And they would say ,that you should always breed to an older Stud dog .

That's about 5 yrs old ,as Catie said ,you can then see what he has thrown .

And how His health has held up .

But some of our Mastiff studs ,cant produce sperm after 2 or 3 yrs old .
That's why i was so surprised about my Dyce ,he will be 5 and had sperm that was 79% .

I would have bet the house that he had dead sperm .
Cause he was never used ,or collected  .So i guess we are always learning something new :>)

Marge

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margelutz

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Reply with quote  #61 
8 year old male--
 
Catie ,
How many 8 yr old Males would have good sperm ? :>)
 
With Cystinuria ,biting at out heels ,along with DJD elbows and Hips ,
 
And not so good temperaments ,and not a lot of true Mastiff type .
 
Whats going to be left in the Gene pool ?
 
I'm thinking we will have   to sacrifice something :>)
 
In the health testing Dept:>)
 
And i know I  would not take Cystinuria ,in any case .
 
Marge

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Kiokeemastiffs

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Reply with quote  #62 
  I bred to Tammra and Dave Kuhn's  Tug  who at 8.5 with a fresh chilled semen collection and an AI on my 5 year old Vidalia produced 10 puppies.  It was her first litter, too.  In my book--that's fertility!

Dave was so funny--he offered me frozen semen on Tug that had been taken when he was 3 or 4 years old.  I opted for the chilled semen  instead.

Yeppers,  it can be done. LOL!

FYI--Tug's dam also lived to be 14 years old--another reason for breeding to this boy!

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Cathy (Catie) C. Arney
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Reply with quote  #63 
  Marge, I'm going to say something here that may offend some folks (oh NO not me!).

People should not be breeding SH-t dogs.  I see inferior, poor quality dogs being bred and shown every day.  Go to the Devine site and look at some of the parents on the litter announcements.  Dogs and bitches that I would neuter and/or spay   and GIVE away are being bred producing more poor quality dogs to be bred.  Sadly some of these same puppies are advertised as "show" quality  and sold at an exorbinate fee--$2000-3000 each.  Go figure.

Oh, sure some of these dogs are "Champions"--but if you look into and investigate--a professional handler hauled these dogs around and showed them until they were finished. A perfect example of "buying" a championship for a poor quality dog.

You see litters of puppies less than 1 week old and the breeder is advertising them as "show" quality.  HUH?  How in the Sam Hill do you know for sure?  Even breeders who have done this for years often wait until their puppies are 6-8 weeks old before determining what is pet or show quality.  Mr. "I just Breed My first Litter" can do better?

It's a pure case of the ignorant being lead by the deluded.

 

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cariston

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Reply with quote  #64 
Yes, fmpe = from my personal experience... 


So Cathy,  do you not breed your males until they are 4, or is this just something for breeders and upcoming breeders to ponder until we get more definite answers.... I think its a great idea, but what is they likelihood of EVERYONE waiting until their male is 3 or 4 years old to breed????


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cariston

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Reply with quote  #65 
8 year old male--
 
Catie ,
How many 8 yr old Males would have good sperm ? :>)
 
With Cystinuria ,biting at out heels ,along with DJD elbows and Hips ,
 
And not so good temperaments ,and not a lot of true Mastiff type .
 
Whats going to be left in the Gene pool ?
 
I'm thinking we will have   to sacrifice something :>)
 
In the health testing Dept:>)
 
And i know I  would not take Cystinuria ,in any case .
 
Marge





Marge those are my same concerns and agree 100%.. What will be left within the gene pool???

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margelutz

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Reply with quote  #66 


  Marge, I'm going to say something here that may offend some folks (oh NO not me!).

 

Oh Catie ,dont hold back  :>)


People should not be breeding SH-t dogs.  I see inferior, poor quality dogs being bred and shown every day.  Go to the Devine site and look at some of the parents on the litter announcements.  Dogs and bitches that I would neuter and/or spay   and GIVE away are being bred producing more poor quality dogs to be bred.  Sadly some of these same puppies are advertised as "show" quality  and sold at an exorbinate fee--$2000-3000 each.  Go figure.


 
Catie i agree with you :>)
 
I have always wondered how a breeder can say its a Show Pup ,at 8 weeks old .
 
That was one reason i dont like to show .
Seems the less quality ones ,win over the typer ones .
 
And that shows new people ,what they should breed??
To take any Mastiff fine Bone ,no head tall and a terrible temperment .
Go breed em :>)
 
They do! then they end up in a Rescue somewhere .
And so goes the new person breeding program :>)
 
Judges need to know whats ,a Mastiff also .
To not give a ribbon if its not deserved .
 
Inbetween what we have on the insides and then what wins on the outside .We could be  doomed :>(
 
I think if more People went to Bucks or the specialty .
They would see what Mastiffs should be , and what should be bred .
 
Marge
 
 


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Kiokeemastiffs

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Reply with quote  #67 
  Cariston, I have a champion male, here--fully health tested that will be 4 in dec.  After I test him for cystinuria one more time and it remains negative.--I will breed him.  So, yes, I am waiting until he is 4 years old before I breed him.

  BTW--he has 7 litter brothers which I have requested the owners to test.  IF he had a litter brother to show up positive--he would never be bred.

I have no reason to believe that any of these males will ever have  or be C+  but I am damn well going to be sure before I breed.  He does have some similar lines behind him that has produced C+ dogs--so I will be most careful in how he is bred.

There is only one female in that litter--and she will never be breed.  She was a pet.  So I will not be taking any chance of passing on this trait from an unknown carrier.

As long as my boy stays negative--I can be sure that this particular line is clean.

That's the best one can do.

I don't expect all stud owners to be able or willing to do this--but I can look for an older proven dog that had been tested and has not prioduced C+ offspring through his daughters.   That works, too.  They are ouit there--you just need to do your research and look.

I do not advocate or believe in the self-justification of breeding a dog with a serious health issue  just becauae of it's pedigree or because of the money I may have invested into that dog.   I have given away dogs that I paid $2000 to 2500 for because they were not breeding/show quality--they were pets--so I spayed/neutered them and placed them.  Hurts to pocket book but it save your breeding program.


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Cathy (Catie) C. Arney
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Reply with quote  #68 

  I would rather have a smaller group of clean healtht dogs in the gene pool than to contine to see breeders producing from the shallow end of said gene pool.


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Cathy (Catie) C. Arney
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Reply with quote  #69 
In reading this, I want to clarify that it is not set in stone that Cystinuria is X-linked, but that is the theory they are leaning to.  There are some C+ males who have sired males, are they sure that the female was the carrier, no, esp. when she has been bred to say another male and had no C+ males.
The first breeding of my girl Tangerine Dream has sired 3 C+ boys, I am asking all the litter mates to continue to test so if there are anymore C+ we can get their blood compared to the others and find a DNA to design a test for.  Now Tangee's second litter the boys are coming up Negative. 
They were both tested again recently (28 & 30 months) and both are negative.  Tho 2 in the litter can mean they got lucky and didn't get the gene as you would think that 50% of the boys would get the C+ gene and be C+. 
I am waiting to find what her 3rd litter tests results are because it would be interesting to find only C+ in her first litter.
Now the sire in the first litter had produced C+ from what I understand, but the dam was not related to my lines, so I wasn't concerned as I believed the theory that dam's produce C+ boys and C+ boys produce carrier girls.  I've talked with others who have bred their C+ boy (of course before they knew their boy was C+, were talking about 10 yrs ago) and the dam produced C+ boys, then the dam was bred to other males and had no C+ boys.
Now I also have a liter sister to my C+ boys who had had a litter before we learned of the boys being C+ and so far her boys are testing Neg. at 20 months, but not all have been tested. 
I am trying to get all the pup owners to test their dogs, but some are harder to convince than others. I have explained that the more we test, the more C+ we find, the more we can give blood on, the faster we can possibly find the DNA and help put a stop to this disease in the breed.  However pet owners are harder to see that picture

Now I have also heard of boys who test neg, but are stone formers. This is a hard disease to understand and I just wish we could get a better hold on it!


Now Margo, I commend you for coming forward, I know you dealt with PRA and had to go thru a lot of crap, but it takes a bigger person to be able to openly discuss this and try to help the breed and put the BS aside.  Thank you!
So let's talk, maybe we can really learn something.  How old are your boys now?  Had they been bred more than once and if so was the bitch a different bitch each time?  Were the bitches bred to other dogs and produce other males with C+ or no other males with C+? 

Okay, I'm at work, so got to go for now! 
Thanks for this discussion Margo!

Jan

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #70 

Quote:

There are some C+ males who have sired males, are they sure that the female was the carrier, no, esp. when she has been bred to say another male and had no C+ males.



You cannot use that as an example, since the female can be a carrier on only one of her X's and therefore not pass that to a male. In addition, you are dealing with laws of probability & chance. So a 50% outcome does not always present as 50%.

You can have a 50% carrier female that has had 50 male pups with no cystinuria passed on to any of the males! Not probable, but possible!

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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WindfallMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #71 
Steve,
The fact is, they are not 100% sure it is x-linked and most probable a carrier dam will have at least one C+ if a carrier, but not always the case!
My point is, until we know for sure the mode of inheritance, we can't be sure it isn't passed from the sire or dam, so hopefully people aren't being mislead as to if the male is C+, his son's won't be and that if they are, it must have come from the dam.
Jan

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cariston

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Reply with quote  #72 
I have no reason to believe that any of these males will ever have  or be C+  but I am damn well going to be sure before I breed.  He does have some similar lines behind him that has produced C+ dogs--so I will be most careful in how he is bred.



Thats a good way to go about it catie and also very respectable of you....


You seem to hold good judgement in your breeding program.


So do you rarely breed then since you wait till your males turn 4 and after theyve been re tested several times?

How long have you been upholding this requirement for your stud dogs?



When did you start getting  more and more insight on the Cystinuria disease and then started waiting till your breeding boys were of age to your discretion to meet the requirements within your breeding program???




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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #73 
The researchers are pretty certain that it is sex linked.

And one thing is 100% certain....you don't get cystinuria from the air!

It's inherited!

Therefore, one must follow the precautions necessary in any heritable disease process.

Is it possible that a damaged piece from the Y chromosome is responsible in some cases? Perhaps, but until we get the genome up and running, with many comparatives to use as a guide, we can't be sure.

Until then, it's better to be over-cautious than under-cautious!



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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Kiokeemastiffs

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Reply with quote  #74 
  WEll, Cariston, that's the nice thing about being a "nobody"--the world does not beat down your door to breed to your dogs.

My Tuffy--3 litters--Ist litter at 3 yrs of age--last litter at 6 yrs of age (15 yrs ago)

My Walker--1 litter at 3 yrs of age--(3 males--one of which was Taz)

My Taz--1 litter--2 females--my Vidalia and my Vesta
          Vesta--never bred  Vidalia--2 litters

My Hercules--1 litter at age 8--I kept a brindle female--midnight-
                         -never has been bred

My Cooter--a son of my Tina ( who is out of Zena--Herc litter sister--1/2 sister to Vi and Vesta)-- 3.5 yrs old --never has been bred.

Tina had 1 litter brother ( litter of 2)--Solomon who was placed as a pet and lives with my vet--at age 7 --no symptoms and has had 4 negative tests in his life time.

So basically--I have complete control of my lines and have the ability to monitor almost all of the dogs I have bred.

  I have Sara Lee,  Mona and Reba her (who are Vi daughters)  that have had 1 litter, 2 litters and 1 litter respectivelly--and that is all the litters I have bred for the past 25 years.  So that's why I laugh when someone calls me a "puppymill". 

 I have produced LESS litters in 25 years that some MCOA breeders have produced in the past 6-7 years.   I monitor and follow-up on my dogs better than most.  Go figure.


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Cathy (Catie) C. Arney
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panzerakc

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Reply with quote  #75 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiokeemastiffs
  --it's the formation of the stones that makes the test be positive. 

FYI--only 1 in 6 positive male will form stones--so that is another reason for continued testing of all males used in breedings.

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Comstock
Though many of the C+ males do not form stones, they are still C+ and can still make all their female offspring carriers. 



Okay, I'm grappling with understanding some of this . . .

If the formation of stones is what makes the test positive (and by positive, I'm thinking that means the dog has cystinuria), then how can dogs without stones be positive?

Anita
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