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Reply with quote  #326 

i still want an answer do you think people said it was a bad idea when people started breeding mastiffs or any of the other breeds we have today that turned out good?

 

that is what i want to know did all the breeds magically appear or did they come from trial and error and what we have today came from years and years of making. 

 

were people hated when they started mixing and came up with new breeds but years down the road it wound up being a good idea. 

 

maybe it is a bad idea but give it a chance.  and calling me foolish thats a good one im foolish because i paid 1000 for exactly what i wanted and i got what i wanted last i checked thats not foolish.

 

and i might be crazy but the word mastiff does not mean just plain english mastiff, it is a universal word to describe many large dogs.  if you ask me english mastiff stole that name and should go back to being called english mastiff.   but hey whats in a name oh wait according to everyone on here alot. 

 

i work on cars for a living i only see the ones that need to be fixed so if you ask me i will tell you certain cars are junk but guess what i dont see the 100s of thousounds that never have a problem why because people are more prone to complain.  most people dont brag if something works but they will yell from the hills if its broke just an observation. 

 

maybe you guys should look at the number of american mastiffs with great homes and that have turned out great and stop focusing on the ones that did not turn out so great cause i can do with anybreed. 

 

and by the way the american mastiff is not the only dog that rides around with the mastiff name, when i say mastiff people are like oh bull mastiff or dane or you name the big dog people who dont spend time on dogs dont know them well and confuse easy put up your disclaimer say american mastiff is not a mastiff but dont make us a bunch of lies beacause you guys are losing customers and money to the american mastiff.  point people in the right direction to get info and let them decide. thats what i did and everything turned out for me

 

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Reply with quote  #327 
I have been on the site back several pages ago, every time i feel like getting a laugh I come back & check on this site. That picture of the AM & EM in the same home is true. I have an AM 61/2 mos, sent pictures to goldleaf of my Daisy. I have also had EM as far back as 30 yrs ago. The dogs are very similar, thats obvious. My daisy's temperament is exactly like that of the mastiffs. As observant as I assume everybody is, all of your EM breeders dogs have distict variations. If you can't see that you need your head examined. Most people who went & purchased AM's, buy because of what we have seen on the website, the pictures & writings from owners. Daisy has filled our expectations, the papers, the money that doesn't matter. evrybody knows the dogs aren't drool less. Every dog is a crapshoot, I have had EM's that had to be put down. If you Breed dogs it happens, as sad as it is. Dogs like all creatures of nature get anomolies, illnesses or defective what ever you want to call it. Claiming you had experience with a bad dog from a breeder, that does'nt constitute anything. Some of the people on this sight have no sense of what life is really about. It looks like all you do is sit on the computer all DAY LONG!!!!!!!!1
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NancyE

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Reply with quote  #328 

Quote:

As much as I try to help them understand from a humane, statistical perspective, it is frustrating indeed..

 

You can't reach everybody. Some people are too bitter, ignorant and unreasonable to even begin to grasp any of the pertinent issues or have a rational debate. (for example: angrily demanding that a reputable breeder give someone a well-bred Mastiff puppy to prove some sort of point is ignorant, unreasonable and speaks of the bitterness this person is dwelling on.) I am glad to contribute when I think I may offer my perspective with a positive influence, but I'm just as content to focus my energy elsewhere when I realize it's becoming an uphill battle which cannot be resolved.


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Kat

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Reply with quote  #329 

I dont think he angrily demanded one. I think it was actually pretty funny. Ya know, HA-HA (IE: Joke, jest, antic, quip, wisecrack, etc). One of the complaints against the AM breeders is the price they are charging people. He was making a point by basically stating nothing in life is free. To say otherwise would be a straight up lie. I don't see ANY breeders giving their pups away "Free To Good Home".

 

For Gina : Believe me I understand where you are coming from in regards to the overpopulation problem. But its not that way just because of AM's. I don't see EM breeders cutting back on the amount of puppies they are producing to help the cause any either. The only thing people can do is screen owners thoroughly and educate owners/prospective owners about low cost spay/neuter programs that are offered around the country (such as Friends of Animals). But in the end, no matter how much education you provide, people are going to do what people want to do. While it may not feel/seem it at times, even 1 person listening and having their dog/cat spayed or neutered makes a difference.

 

P.S. I am also Italian so I understand the comment about the caps/speaking with hands  It's also why I can never seem to walk away from an argument/discussion

 

You might say I work in customer service. I deal with people every single day at my job. They made us take a customer service seminar 3 years ago. One of the things the speaker said stuck with me and what one of the prior posters said was absolutely true. When a person has a good experience, they might tell 2-3 of their friends/family, but when a person as a bad experience they can tell up to 10-15 or more. In the end we are all "customers" to a breeder. If I had a good experience with a specific one, I am almost 100% more likely to return to that breeder. Things like price, location, etc wouldn't matter. If I know the service and the quality of the experience they are going to provide me, I wouldnt hesitate to go to them again.

 

 


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Reply with quote  #330 

i was just making a joke if making something better is the sole purpose it should be free, but NO FREE LUNCH was something i was once taught and that comes into play here.  i dont expect a free mastiff just making the point that no breeder will give one up for free because we all want and need money. 

 

you cant make high quality dogs without money, you need money for bills dogs are not cheap especially not big ones, i know i have one and my fiance works for a vet i have seen some bills people pay.  but if you want to prove a point of betterment then just sell the dogs for what it costs you for vet fees for the pups, because you love the parent dogs you dont need money for them, just break even if you break even and make no profit i will beleive you but most breeders make a profit so at that point it is a buisness.  at least the price of american mastiffs is regulated you can buy a mastiff for prices as low as 50 bucks and as high as many thousounds, an am is 1500 no matter where you go. 

 

sorry but dogs are a buisness and a big one at that and always will be. kinda rude to say a living thing is just buisness but thats how we are treated by the goverment at times so be it.

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colinthegirl

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Reply with quote  #331 

I get a lot of people asking me what to look for in a good breeder. In short I tell them to make sure the puppy comes from sound, health tested parents with good temperments. I always emphisize health tested, because it is less of a crap shoot that way. If they are not tested, what good is a health guarentee? Please show me ONE anatolianXmastiff that has been OFA or Penn-hip? Since you cant, why would Flying W choose not to document health testing while trying to form her "new breed"?

 

Seems like a backyard breeder that got popular to me.

 

~Colin


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Reply with quote  #332 

Hello All,

 

I am not the original DDMastiff user that has been posting on this board.  I am his fiance-I believe he's mentioned me-and I have listened to him tell me what has been said here, and I have sat down and finally read everything word for word.  I do not normally get into these message boards-particularly ones that have wars which will always be fought, and never produce a victor.  However, I have a somewhat vested interest in the topic as my fiance and I do have an American Mastiff.

 

I work for a veterinarian who has practiced for over 30 years.  I trust his medical opinion in my dog's regard implicitly.  Not because I work for him, but because I have seen first hand what he can do.  He has declared my American Mastiff a healthy dog with a great personality. 

 

I have seen some amazing things happen with animals.  Particularly amazing is what owners will do to keep their pets happy and healthy.  The lengths that people will go to in order to save their pet never ceases to move me.  However, I have faced many realities in the process of this.

 

No matter how hard you try, and no matter how hard your heart wishes it could happen, you cannot save every animal.  Not every animal will live a disease-free, struggle-free, happy life.  So that is why, Gina, when I read your posts, I do not think that you are a mean or angry person, but I think you are so blinded by the wrongs done against some animals that you can never see how much good is also done by every day people with their dogs. 

 

I also know that people will passionately defend something they love whether it hurts their cause or harms it.  Which is why, Steve, I can sympathize with your anger at what you think is a danger to the English Mastiff's well-being when I read your posts.

 

To the others who are more infrequent but generally side with the EM owners I say this: do not assume that because we do not agree with you that we are wrong.  To tell my fiance he is ignorant for suggesting that an EM owner give a mastiff away to prove the point that both EM and AM breeders profit from their breed, whether they began breeding because of a love of the breed or for monetary reasons is ridiculous, and those EM breeders who would say that AM breeders are senseless purveyors of demon dogs who only care about making money on their puppies is ludicrous.  Not because there aren't some dog breeders (in EVERY breed of dog, not just mastiffs) who breed for money rather than enjoyment, but because every breeder charges a fee for their puppy.  Those who would deride AM breeders for charging money for their puppies and yet charge for their EMs are hypocrites.

 

I did not mean to type quite as much as I did, once I start writing it always seems to pour out.  I suppose I just can't understand the hate that some EM owners speak of AM owners and breeders with and even with the dogs themselves.

 

People will continue to make new breeds, whether they are necessary or not.  This is evident in every cockapoo, schnoodle and maltipoo I see come in at the veterinary hospital.  It is not a bad or wrong thing to do.  It is to produce a dog that will make someone happy.  Yes, there are animals who need homes and there always will be.  But that doesn't mean that someone who chooses to get a puppy from a breeder rather than to rescue a dog is a bad person.  I dislike that several EM owners imply that we are bad people for choosing to like a different dog.  I understand that you are angry because you think that these breeders are steering potential EM owners away from their dogs because they are "just like" EMs, only better in their opinion.  But in the end, unfortunately, it will not keep people from wanting something different, and it will not keep people from making new dog breeds.  Just be glad that people love their dogs enough to try and come to defend them to people who are so openly hostile to them for their effort.

 

I am sure this post will get many responses from angry EM owners, and I expect it.  I know probably everything I've said has been thought or said already at one point in time.  Perhaps it was silly of me to add it at all.  But I wanted to say something, because I am a person who loves her dog, not because of his breed, but because every morning when I wake up and I look at his silly droopy face it makes my heart lighter, and to see someone so viciously attack my and other AM owners' love of their dogs is not right.

 

 

 

 

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Nicci

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Reply with quote  #333 

I would really like to know why the word "HATE" keeps being used.  Not one of us has said that we hate AM owners or AM dogs.  The only thing that is "hated' is the false advertising and propaganda that has been used in promoting this cross breed.   


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Gina

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Reply with quote  #334 

dd, jake, kat..all..

can I ask why you are on the English Mastiff board? I'm not hating you, and if you read my posts, my "work" with my Breed Club (MCOA) has brought me nothing but pleasure..yes, my devotion to the rescue and the breed is important, but I DO see all the good too (dd)..TDI tested Mastiffs, Obed., carting, even search and rescue..you should see our MCOA Journal..chuck full of wonderful stories, reputable breedings, National Specialty events, Health clinics, walks, PRA, dancing even...LOL..(not me)..oh so very much GOOD NEWS about our breed..I think that is why in between cooking, cleaning, taking care of family, house, dogs, ..(I'm retired) I get on puter and have at it...and AGAIN..WE DON'T WANT MORE PEOPLE BUYING EM..WE WANT LESS..not to be confused with "taking business away from AM'S...we want novice owners to make a conscientious choice for an EM..not be confused by mixes..

I wish I could send you all my 20 years of Magazines, Journals, Bulletins, Workshops, TDI program info..it is endless..and through it all..LESS IS MORE..

 

Petshops, Mills, BYB's are thriving on cockapoos, Labrapoos..whatever. It's a shame. And you are right, it IS up to the individual to spend 1,000 on a mix at a petshop or BYB, or 35 bucks at the shelter..the problem is THIS...they are from MILLS, MILLS, FARMS in PA...the AMISH are killin us..they have a vested interest in using animals for livelyhood..I was there, I saw the barns loaded with puppies!!!..pick up any newspaper from Lancaster County..am I trashing the Amish? perhaps...do I buy quilts, funnel cakes..never. Do I hate all in Missouri?..NOPE..I am not grouping or making demands on anyone..

I am involved in my Mastiff breed, I am involved in rescue, breeder referral, anything to monitor and help the novice make a good choice..I DON'T want to pick up the messes..and time and time again..I have said..the EM "Mills", BYB's, are NO BETTER..

 

Either someone is ethical or they are not..you are right, all of you, it's a free country, people can do what they want, spend what they want..I choose to mentor along the way out of compassion, knowledge and my many years of experience..the crying, the phone calls, the stories..you didn't hear them..I did (as others who are so involved) I keep it as a "little piece of heaven" and as a passion for animals that I was born with..I can't help it.

 

I don't and can't sit here all day either ..I'm disabled (except for my mouth and typing skills...LOL) and it's painful at times to sit too long..I'm just one of thousands of EM owners who will not back away from my breed, throw my hands up and say..whatever..there is so much to our breed that AM folks just "don't get"..and that's ok..we have MORE reputable breeders and MCOA folks than bad..do not think I dwell on horror stories..I have seen and heard IT ALL..

 

God Bless,

Gina

 

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #335 

We "do" hate! .........You are correct!

 

We hate the false advertising!

We hate the need for a "new breed" when there really was no need!

We hate the rationalizations used in order to justify the cross!

We hate the use of the name, which was OUR domain!

 

Other than that, we harbor no animus against any dog, purebred or not!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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SilverKnight

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Reply with quote  #336 

I find it odd that everyone is using the word hate because all I see coming from both sides (for the most part) is love. This thing is going to go in circles and NEVER end (why can't this thread DIE). If we could keep emotion out of the debate we might get somewhere but because there is so much LOVE, everyone is feeling that their beloved pets are being threatened and that just is not the case.

 

We know you love your dog, we love ours...the fact that you have a wonderful dog (no matter what breed it is) is great.  Nowhere do we say that the Mastiff is perfect, completely free of genetic problems, or environmental/temperment issues (evil puppymills) but we have people dilligently working on those.

 

What I believe everyone is trying to tell the AM people is that it is not ok in any shape or form to present your "breed" to the general unsuspecting public as a better/healthier version of our Mastiff. Because your dog is healthy does not mean they all are, because your dog has a good temperment doesn't mean they all do. You can not generalize all individual dogs be they Mastiff or AM. EM's from less than responsible breeders (byb's and puppy stores) are going to have more issues because they aren't "breeding to better the breed". They breed for CASH. Cold Hard HEARTLESS Cash. They don't look into the eyes of these dogs and feel any LOVE at all. Responsible breeders of any breed are suffering because of a lack of education on the part of the consumer.  Paying $1500 for a pup that doesn't have the testing, showing, etc behind them I find to be silly - but that's me. I like to see a bit more value for my dollar. Now, once you get that pup home, and it's the love of your life, yes, there is value in that, I agree...at that point you are lost. Which is why people need to be objective before they hold that darling puppy. All puppys are worth a million bucks when they give you those sweet puppybreath kisses. NO FREE LUNCH is a good thing...if people do not pay - they do not value.

 

I'm not telling people to buy EM's over AM's - I'm telling them to do their research - expect that the contract includes a return policy, expect that the contract includes health guarantee (and something to back it up with), expect that there IS a contract and that it will be honored. Find a breeder you are comfortable with. If you have all of that - you've done your homework. Congratulations on your puppy.

 

 


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Reply with quote  #337 

Ok...(this is the fiance of DD again) I can understand why my fiance kept getting so riled up now.  I have only 2 things to say:

 

1.  Steve, the English mastiff owners have no claim over the word or name "mastiff" whatsoever...you own an English Mastiff...but despite the Mastiff Club of America's moniker, a mastiff, by definition is a large, powerful dog, a definition meant to encompass all forms of mastiffs (because believe it or not, there is more than one!).  An American Mastiff is different from an English Mastiff in America!  I could go so far as to say, also, that I am offended by the fact that the Mastiff Club of America's web site is only dedicated to English Mastiffs and not any other type of mastiff!  I move that the Mastiff Club of America be changed to the English Mastiff Club of America, since that is obviously what it is!

 

2.  And Gina, to address your question-the board is for information about mastiffs, a word which does define more than the English Mastiff, as I stated above. 

 

But I am, of course, allowing myself to become upset over something trivial, as are you.  And with that said, I will allow my fiance to continue his posting.  I am already tired of it!

 

 

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #338 

Ok...(this is the fiance of DD again) I can understand why my fiance kept getting so riled up now.  I have only 2 things to say:

 

1.  Steve, the English mastiff owners have no claim over the word or name "mastiff" whatsoever...you own an English Mastiff...but despite the Mastiff Club of America's moniker, a mastiff, by definition is a large, powerful dog, a definition meant to encompass all forms of mastiffs (because believe it or not, there is more than one!).  When did I say that the term "mastiff" was ours alone? Please get your facts straight! An American Mastiff is different from an English Mastiff in America!  I could go so far as to say, also, that I am offended by the fact that the Mastiff Club of America's web site is only dedicated to English Mastiffs and not any other type of mastiff!  I move that the Mastiff Club of America be changed to the English Mastiff Club of America, since that is obviously what it is! You may "move" anything you wish, but you would be wrong! The MCOA is the parent body, which represents the mastiff ( AKA English mastiff ) in America and is affiliated with the only nationally "recognized" body, known as the AKC. Many other mastiff types are discussed, from time to time, in the MCOA literature, but it was formed solely to provide assistance to the English mastiff in America. Since the AKC standard is slightly different from it's British counterpart, the AKC Mastiff ( AKA English mastiff ) in America is known simply as "the mastiff", or English mastiff. The American mastiff, for all intents and purposes, is "the mastiff", or English mastiff in America. Had you done your homework, you would find supportive evidence dating back to approx. 1879 when the AMERICAN MASTIFF CLUB was first formed! That club represented our AMERICAN MASTIFF.......NOT YOUR MIX.........!!! The MCOA was originally formed in Canada, but no doubt you knew that! It was the successor club to the American Mastiff Club and reformed at a later date once again in America. Our mastiffs have a long solid history validating the use of the name "AMERICAN MASTIFF", which your recent mixed breed seized for it's own!

If you want a new "original breed", then at least have the decency to formulate a new original name! Counterfeit Rolex watches, are not Rolex watches, no matter how you label them!

 

2.  And Gina, to address your question-the board is for information about mastiffs, a word which does define more than the English Mastiff, as I stated above. 

 

But I am, of course, allowing myself to become upset over something trivial, as are you.  And with that said, I will allow my fiance to continue his posting.  I am already tired of it!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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CapeWind

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Reply with quote  #339 

Hi Steve,

 

LOVED your Rolex anology, it was absolutely appropriate.

 

I always love your history lessons. I especially appreciated the reminder of the founding year of the AMERICAN Mastiff Club .. But how about we go just a little bit further back in time? How about the MASTIFF that arrived in this country in 1620??? Wouldn't that Mastiff technically be considered the FIRST American Mastiff???

 

For the AM folks ... Of all the "educated" AM owners defending their theft of our name, I sit here wondering when one of these scholars will simply recognize the difference between a common and a proper noun.

 

common noun
-- noun Grammar. a noun that may be preceded by an article or other limiting modifier and that denotes any or all of a class of entities and not an individual, as man, city, horse, music. 

 

proper noun
-- noun
a noun that denotes a particular thing; usually capitalized 

 

How about opening an encyclopedia as well ...

Mastiff

Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia - Cite This Source

Mastiff, breed of very large, powerful working dog developed in England more than 2,000 years ago. It stands from 27 to 33 in. (68.6–83.8 cm) high at the shoulder and weighs from 165 to 185 lb (74.9–83.9 kg). Its coarse, short, close-lying coat may be silver fawn, apricot, or dark fawn brindle in color, with a black muzzle, nose, and ears and black around the eyes. The mastiff was first bred as a fighting dog and guardian. As a fighter it was cited for its physical prowess and courage by Caesar in his account of the Roman invasion of Britain in 55 B.C. Indeed, it was later imported to Rome to fight in the arena. In its native country the mastiff was a popular antagonist in bullbaiting and bearbaiting contests and in organized dogfights until these blood sports were outlawed in 1835. However, throughout the entire history of the breed in England its greatest popularity has derived from its widespread use as a guardian of home and family. This centuries-old association with man is undoubtedly responsible for the mastiff's unexcelled suitability for the role of family companion and its particular devotion to and gentleness with children. The term mastiff is also applied to a general type of giant dog whose origin has been traced to Asia and of which the modern Tibetan mastiff, infrequently seen in the United States, is representative.

 

People continue to "confuse" facts as it suits their needs. Fraud, is fraud, is FRAUD. Point blank, no matter how much one would wish it, ONE CAN NOT CHANGE HISTORY.

 

So EITHER the AM folks are nothing more then theives and liars, or they are defending theives and liars! Take your pick!

 

If I created something, I would want to be proud of it, and not have it synonymous with falsehoods.

 

Main Entry:   falsehood
Part of Speech:   noun
Definition:   lie
Synonyms:   canard, cover-up, deceit, deception, dishonesty, dissimulation, distortion, equivocation, erroneousness, error, fable, fabrication, fakery, fallaciousness, fallacy, falseness, falsity, feigning, fib, fibbery, fiction, figment, fraud, half truth, hogwash*, line, mendacity, misstatement, perjury, pretense, prevarication, sham*, story, tale, untruism, untruth, untruthfulness, whopper*, yarn

Jann .. Thank you so much for allowing this board to be used for such a debate. I believe the EDUCATED fancier will gain a clear understanding of the differences between THE Mastiff, and the "imitation" ...

 

"Imitation Mastiff" now there's a proper name for this breed, based solely on the actions of its breeders and fanciers. Like other mastiff type breeds, it uses the word mastiff (a common noun) but clearly defines it as not being THE Mastiff. Oh wait! That would lead to HONESTY .. The AM folks couldn't tolerate THAT!

 


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Cedarhollow

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Reply with quote  #340 

 

Ok, thought I would start with a little humor. 
 
One of the problems with a debate like this is that we can only get so much from the written word.  And some people are better at expressing themselves than others.  If we were to all sit down around a table and talk about this...the feelings might be much different at this stage in the game.
 
We, the Mastiff community, battle many of the problems with BYBs, puppy mills, etc that we take exception to with the AM...in general.  If you spend enough time going through the archives of this board and others you will see the posts confirming this.  So, much of this it isn't just an AM problem. 
 
However, we, the Mastiff community, recognize the problems in our breed and are doing what we can to combat them.  What is it that they say...the first step is admitting there is a problem? 
 
Among the AM community, we, the Mastiff community, see a lot of propaganda - please see definition below - stating things that are reasons to purchase an AM. 
(1. information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.
2. the deliberate spreading of such information, rumors, etc.
3. the particular doctrines or principles propagated by an organization or movement.)
This is a HUGE influence in the feelings of the Mastiff community towards the AM community.   
 
If we were to look at the AM websites/breeders as if they were just other Mastiff websites/breeders it raises all the red flags that we, the Mastiff community, warn people about in looking for a Mastiff.  Then you add the mixed breed angle and it exacerbates the problem. 
 
The AM community has their 'Breeder Council' that approves breeders and only those breeders are allowed to produce AMs.  Well, unfortunately for them...there ARE many out there breeding their AMs regardless of this Breeder Council and there is not much that the Breeder Council can do about it.  And yes, the CKC (Continental Kennel Club) will register them.  This is the same as the Mastiff community has many BYBs and Puppy Mills breeding Mastiffs regardless of the recommendations of our national club, etc.  And the only thing we, the Mastiff community, can do is try to educate the buying public to not purchase from them.  Supply and demand are the only things that will influence them.
 
As to the money.  In one of the above posts it was stated that the Breeder Council requires that AMs be sold for $1500.  Granted...the Mastiff community is not regulated as such and there are many that sell their puppies for more and some for less.  What ever their reasons.  But, in our education of the public, we encourage people to look at the reasons behind the price.  Mastiffs are not easy to breed to begin with.  Then because it is the betterment of the breed that is supposed to be the reason for the individual breeding most of the time the suitable male is not conveniently located and you have the costs of shipping semen, surgical implants, what have you.  Before you even do the breeding there are the costs of showing, testing, etc.  There are now at least 10 tests available for Mastiffs.  Depending on your location, etc this can be up to $1000 just in testing.  This is all prior to puppies being conceived.  Then you have the costs of c-sections, etc.  So, is it fair to have someone tell you that you have to sell your puppies for a certain price when they cost you much more than that?  Or is it fair to tell you that you have to sell your puppies for a certain price when you have a family that would be a perfect home and you would like to offer them a puppy for less?
 
And before anyone guffaws at the thought that anyone reputable would sell a Mastiff puppy for less than $1500 let me tell you that I know of a NUMBER of them that have.  For whatever the reason.  Most of us care more about the homes that our puppies go to more than the money.  If we are lucky enough to break even, wonderful.  My personal view is that if I take the cost to purchase however many puppies I keep in a litter and I go in the hole no more than that...it was a successful litter! 
 
Here is an example for you:
A couple buys a puppy from a reputable breeder.  The puppy was about 6mo old.  They had the puppy for a month, kind of on a trial, things were going great and they were going to make payments to the breeder.   Then the puppy started getting sick.  It took a couple of weeks for the vet to diagnose what was wrong and by the time they did it was too late and the puppy had to be put down.  This was a freak disease and nothing that the breeder or the people did wrong...just a very rare disease...so rare that none of the vets or specialists in the area picked up on it soon enough to treat it. 
 
The people had spent THOUSANDS of dollars in vet bills for a puppy they had not quite 6 weeks.  They had not paid the breeder a penny for the dog so there was nothing for the breeder to refund on a guarantee.  They placed no blame...there was none to place...it was a freak thing that no one could control.  The breeder would have gladly given them another puppy but she did not have one to give.  They had all of the stuff they purchased for their puppy and no puppy to use it.  They were devastated.  And they didn't have the money to go and buy another puppy because they had just spent it all on medical bills.  Their puppy was a brindle girl.  At the time I had a brindle girl that was just turning 8 weeks old.  I offered them this puppy...no cost.  I felt terrible when I heard their story.  I told them that if they wanted her...she was theirs.  But if they were not ready for a puppy, completely understood that, too.  They were beside themselves and could not believe that we would just give them a puppy.  Well, that has turned into one of my best homes!  When the puppy we gave them was a bit older and they moved into a new home away from her neighbor dog friend she was lonely with no one to play with.  They were such an outstanding home that we gave them a puppy from our last litter.  No charge...just because it is the home that is most important to us.  Again...I don't regret the decision in the least. 
 
This is one example and I know a number of other breeders have done similar things. 
 
But, I have also turned down many homes.  I don't care if they come with 10 times the cost of a puppy in cash...if I do not feel that they are the right home for one of my puppies I will not sell them one.  Sometimes it is simply a personality conflict and they do fine with another breeder.  And yes, sometimes they head straight for the pet store or BYB and get one from them because for them it is about the dollar not the home.  It is sad when this happens but I have to do what is right by my puppies.
 
So, what has this really long post tried to convey?  That the Mastiff community is not all about the money.  The examples given above are not rare.  We, the Mastiff community, are not required to sell our puppies for certain amounts.  And no, we, the Mastiff community, are also not restricted and can sell them for more.  But, a reputable breeder has a lot of expense invested as well. 
 
I am sure that there are AM breeders that truly feel that they are doing a good thing.  There are bound to be a number of dogs produced with excellent temperaments.  There are bound to be a number of dogs produced that are healthy.  There are bound to be a number of dogs produced that drool less than the Mastiffs.  But, when the AM is promoted to not have any of these problems or to be exactly like a Mastiff but better that is where most of us take offense. 
 
Until there are the test results to back up the claims of health it can't be claimed to be healthier.  And yes, a vet that has been in practice for however many years can say a dog is healthy but until the dog is judged to the same (universal) requirements that the Mastiff is judged the claim can not be made.  It is the testing that is being used against the Mastiff saying that the AM is healthier...just look at how much HD is present in the Mastiff...but the AM isn't being judged to the same standard.  If the Mastiff only relied on vet checks...I am sure that the Mastiffs health rating would improve significantly. 
 
The temperaments are bound to be across the board.  And the AM breeders need to acknowledge this and take responsibility for it.  It is a fact...not just rumor...that there have been a number of poor temperaments produced.  These are the ones that have been brought to the attention of the Mastiff community.  Yes, they maybe the extremes, but the fact is that they come to us, the Mastiff community, for help because the AM community was not there for them.  To simply say that it isn't true and we, the Mastiff community, are making it up to disparage the AM is irresponsible and one of the issues that the Mastiff community has with the AM breeders.
 
Yes, there are Mastiffs with poor temperaments.  Most of these come from BYBs who only breed for money and not for the best interests of the breed.  Regardless of this...we, the Mastiff community, take responsibility for them and will do what we, the Mastiff community, can to help the owners, etc.  Rescue could recount many stories of these temperaments.  We, the Mastiff community, do not hide them.  It is one of the reasons that we, the Mastiff community, advocate buying only from a reputable breeder.  We, the Mastiff community, do not simply state that it isn't a problem and all Mastiffs have wonderful temperaments.  We, the Mastiff community, simply state what is the correct temperament and try to help when that is not what people get.
 
Drool...well that is pretty silly in my own opinion.  I know Labs and Goldens that drool as much as my Mastiffs.  But, to each their own.  If that is what the deciding factor is on a dog...then by all means don't get a Mastiff.  LOL!  But, it is the luck of the draw if the AM will drool...some will and some wont.  Just like Mastiffs.
 
And as far as looking just like a Mastiff.  In the BYB Mastiffs the first things to go are bone, head and substance.  The majority of dogs that come into rescue are from BYB or puppy mills.  These dogs are not bred to adhere to the Mastiff standard.  To judge an AM against one of these dogs would be like judging an AM to a Ridgeback...I have seen AMs that look like a Ridgeback...does that mean that the claim could be made on the AM sites that they look just like a Ridgeback, too?  It is apples and oranges.  Now, because of the Mastiff in the AM there are also bound to be the ones that do look like a Mastiff.  But, the claims that they are just like a Mastiff only better are inflammatory and inaccurate.  They are NOT just like a Mastiff. 
 
If you, the AM community, were proud enough and had enough conviction to 'create' this 'breed' then promote it for what it is and the uniqueness that makes it what it is.  Don't ride on the coat tails of the Mastiff in promoting the AM.  Don't belittle what the Mastiff is to promote the AM.  And be truthful and open and honest.  Start the health testing.  Post the results on the websites.  Be proactive.  Be responsible.  Create a national rescue program and promote it.  Have this rescue program get in touch with all Mastiff rescues and share contact information so that when Mastiff rescue is contacted they can provide AM rescue contact to the people. 
 
Please do not take this post personally.  It is not directed at any one person that has posted here.  Hopefully it can be read with an open mind.  The handful of AM people that have come on this board and posted have been passionate about their dogs, just as we, the Mastiff community, are passionate about ours.  Nothing that the Mastiff community is going to do is going to change the past.  The AMs are not going to go away.  Regardless of our feelings of the validity of this 'breed' it is going to continue.  All we can try to do at this point is make the distinctions in the 'breeds' and encourage the AM 'breeder council' to be responsible in how they promote the AMs and the claims they make. 
 
Many of the AM people have said things like what about the Bullmastiffs, etc.  Well, the best answer I have for you is that they are not claiming to be just like the Mastiff but better.  The Bullmastiff is the most recent, if my memory serves me correctly.  Yes, it was a created breed.  It was created for a working purpose.  Not just as a companion.  There was a job that needed to be done and a dog needed for that job.  The Bullmastiff was created for that job. 
 
While I agree with many that have posted about the overpopulation and name issues...I will leave those discussions for others.  I think this has been longwinded enough!  LOL!! 
 
 

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Jamie Morris
Cedarhollow Mastiffs
http://www.cedarhollowmastiffs.com

Until one has been loved by an animal,
a part of one's soul remains unawakened. ~ Anatole France
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Michelle

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Reply with quote  #341 

To Kat and DD ...

 

You say that a reputable breeder would never give a puppy away to a good home.  I know of one that had an accidental breeding that was a cross.  It was still some of the most beautiful mastiff puppies you have ever seen, with wonderful temperaments, and 2 completely health tested parents.  They were a cross between a Spanish Mastiff and an English Mastiff.  Well, guess what ... all these puppies were given for free to great homes and all are spayed and neutered!!!  After all a MUTT is a MUTT is a MUTT!!!  

 

What you can't get about the MUTT statement is beyond me. 

 

Like Jaime said, there was no PURPOSE in developing this breed.  And  although these dogs deserve good loving homes ... the breeders are flat out taking advantage of the public, and unfortunately (like I said before) laughing all the way to the bank!!! 


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Michelle ~ Vegas and Cowboy
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kittykat

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Reply with quote  #342 
Wow, Jamie, Wow! Loved that post! There have, of course, been many good posts in this thread, but that really says it well, without all the emotion and just the facts. Very well said. I'm impressed.

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Reply with quote  #343 

http://mastiff.org/faq/ammastiff.mv


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Gina

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Reply with quote  #344 

Thank you Jamie..the Mastiff Breed is fortunate to have you and visa versa.

I wish I could have everyone get together for a talk also. You are right. It is very difficult on a machine. That is why at the Nationals, Regionals, Local, whatever any Mastiff org has come up with, it is all about the breed..how we can better serve it, the public, the rescue problem, through all the trials and tribulations I have met the best friends, had the most fun, learned more about myself, the breed and dogs in general. What AM folks might be missing is perhaps the comraderie that has been established among us through shows, events and of course this puter..someone posted that I only saw bad things..not true at all..I did obedience, TDI, CGC, finished 2 males, showed 4, held different positions for MCOA, TRMC, SSMF, helped at Nationals..tons of rescues (mostly ending in happy "tails"), breeder referral..sadly, the AM folks on here do not know us or me and I sure hope with all this dialogue, they have more information than before..

There is only ONE thing wrong in your post, and I will email you private..it's a huge one..something I am so shocked that you would type..really Jamie..LOL..

woofs,

Gina

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colinthegirl

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Reply with quote  #345 

Great post Jamie! All I have to add is "ditto".

 

~Colin


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Romans cross country trek. 16 months.
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Reply with quote  #346 

In the spirit of debate I'd like to throw in a few thoughts on the AM vs. EM controversy. Upfront I have an AM puppy who I love and is an incredible dog. That being said isn't dog owning all about preference big vs small, sporting vs non-sporting etc... tight-lipped vs loose-lipped. Breeders are breeding puppies according to standards that they are interpreting from a written description or a show ring. I don't know of many or any breeders with advanced degrees in canine genetics. But I've sure met more than a few with enough common sense and experience to know a good match-up when they see it. But since there is no committee making decisions on the dog dna match-ups and passing that down to breeders there is always a possibility of an aggressive or not up to standards puppy being born in any breed. The associations or councils are leaving the breeding decisions up to people who in turn can act responsibly or greedily out of love or need. The eight AM breeders approved by their AMBC are responsible loving and kind breeders of quality mastiffs. The dogs are all they promised and more. If the dogs were aggressive or genetically unsound trust me you wouldn't have this debate or this thread. No one would want an AM. And I don't know of any other AM breeders nor can I find existence of them (at least locally or on the Internet) Maybe you know breeders that I can't find or unhappy AM owners but I haven't found one yet. Don't all breeds start somewhere with some cross or genetic mutation that results in something quite desirable. There are 32 rare breeds of dogs that the AKC is recognizing this year...including the Tibetan Mastiff and the Dog DE Bordeaux sp?.  Is the AM that threatening that you would call it a mutt and the people breeding them irresponsible? All that I can say is that if that's the case you haven't met either one of those groups.  Mutts are the results of accidental breedings...if you've ever met an AM you would know that is not the case. You say it's wrong to breed a dog just so it won't drool but come on be realistic...breeders breed dogs for just about every reason under the sun...eye color, size, temperament, head shape ...whatever...and you are wrong about the drool factor...they do drool less just like different breeds of dogs shed less...it's just fact. And this fact is just one of the things directly contributed to the genetic contribution made by the Anatolian Shepherd. The drooling vs non-drooling one-upmanship suggestion is childish. I refuse to go down that road. Instead of attacking AM's why not embrace the breed as a sibling in the canine world. Celebrate the differences and in turn celebrate the history behind the EM's. If they weren't such a great dog believe me the AM breeders wouldn't be so quick to reference them. It's a big enough world for both just like all of the Shepherd's, terriers, hounds and Mastiffs

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Reply with quote  #347 
I would like to start this message off saying that I do not own a Mastiff, either English or American.  In fact I do not even own a dog at this point in time.  I am however looking at getting a new dog,  I have had AKC registered dogs, as well as mutts in the past, and would like my next dog to be a large breed of some type.  I have been considering buying an American or English Mastiff along other similar breeds.  At first I must admit being attracted to the idea of less drool in the American Mastiff, along with better health and longer life all sound good no matter what angle I view it from.   I go to the breeders sites for both breeds, many of the EM breeder seem caught up in the AKC show driven world of ever changing unattainable perfection selling mostly pet quality dogs, and perhaps a few potential show qaulity ones at a high premium.   The AM breeders are on the other hand promoting their dogs as having the best qualities as a companion, many of the breeders sites mention the relationship of the OEM to the AM in one light or another.  I go to users sites for both breeds (yes I consider the AM a breed, to me a Mutt is a random usualy unknown cross breed, a Cross breed is a dog of with parents of two known breeds, however from all I have read the AM is the result of a multi generational crossing to introduce a 7/8 OEM 1/8 Anatolian blood line, the current breed appears to be bred from a confined gene pool with no new OEM or Anatolian blood being introduced, and is now on at least its 5th generation to me this is a breed, perhaps a young breed, but still a breed).  I then read threads like this one and find myself leaning even more towards the American Mastiff if for no other reason than the owners on average seem to be a much nicer group of people.  They in general have great things to say about the AM, a few have negative things to say, or have dogs with some sort of problem, but the same can also be said about OEM's,  there is one clear difference the AM owners tend to promote their dog where the OEM owner often only atttacks what the AM people say never pointing out any good supperior points of their breed other than some idea that it is the "real thing".  A lot these feelings I am having also has to do with how circular the OEM arguements are (not that there may not be some merrit) in no particular order the OEM attack on the AM seem to go something like this:

1, claim AM breeders are just making claims to rip people off and charge outrageous prices, this claim makes little sense as the prices the AM breeders charge are roughly in line with the prices OEM breeders charge.  I have no doubt there is demand for these dogs, with less than a dozen official breeders, one of which has their waiting list filled through 2007 and is not accepting new customers, and many of the others with shorter waiting lists in very remote locations, I suspect that they could charge more if not limited in maximum price to $1,500 by the AMBC, if they were really in it to make money why not breed OEM's and ask more?

2, That there are no shows to establish the qaulity of the breed, and anyone can go out and breed more, first off the lack of shows is one of those AKC catch 22's as to people other than the licensed AMBC breeders selling puppies, please point me to one of their ads online, I have searched and can't find any.

3, That there are no hard numbers on the AM being an improved breed, this one may have some strong points, but the unscientific numbers that are out there do suggest to me that the AM's claims have some basis in fact.  Particularly the number of AM that are older than all but the most long lived OEM's

Having said all this I may still end up getting an OEM or perhaps even some other large breed although as each day goes by the AM seems to look better and better.

Ike

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Gina

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Reply with quote  #348 

Hi Ike,

I am on this thread way too much. If you want some one on one time I would be happy to call you. You see, WAY back when there was another invention called the telephone...LOL...we used it all the time. It was not a cross bred thing, it was a simple device ..now with the advent of this puter thing, lots of misinformation along with GREAT and wonderful information is being spread across the world..I see big changes because of this "double edge sword".

I have been with the Mastiff breed for almost 20 years..on that antique thing most of it ..for my breed among personal use of course.

I can't explain it all on here..I don't want you to run out and buy the first Mastiff you see on HERE...yes it's a great learning tool and way to find breeders...but what did we do before?..and what was Flyin W doin while the mass production was going on?...hmmm..

AND...yes the AM is a MIX breed..now it's a mix breed that is reg. with CKC because of it's longevity, promotion and riding on the EM's standard...

all Flyin W did was take 2 very different breeds and create this thread that will never end..I am not promoting the EM for you..I don't want to, I don't have to, we have HUGE problems already..

Flyin W just added more...

With experience comes knowledge and truth..as "deep" as that might sound, I can't help it. You can do what ever you want..of course..

Did I read that the AM MUST be sold for 1,500?..why?

ok..I am willing to help you make a choice..and it's your choice. But what I do best is what I have been at for these many years..let me know.

Gina Anelli

P.S. I have long distance plan and much to share..it means that much to me that people have an informed view of my breed. I am not going to try to change your mind, it is my responsibility (as others) to represent, protect and educate the public through MCOA's guidelines and ethics.

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StergoMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #349 

It has been awhile since I posted on this thread.  At times I have thought about posting, then changed my mind thinking it is a waste of my time.  However The English Mastiff, That I am devoted to is NOT a waste of my time. 

There are so many emotions on this thread, and it is great to see that!  I think everyone here is a true animal lover.  This is going to be long winded.. due to my emotions as well.  MANY MANY thoughts running through my mind.

 

What Gina has said about the internet is so very true.  This world of internet has allowed anyone to put up a website of a lot of Fancy pictures, and a lot of false information.  Websites are based on  "opinions" of their dogs.  Not only do I have a problem with the AM breeders posting false information, I have a problem with EM "breeders" posting false information.  I see people posting pictures saying their dogs are 200+ lbs and 36 inches tall, and there is no way, i email them and ask for a photo of them standing next to a standard kitchen counter LOL.  EM breeders post testing, but don't inform people that it was their vet that said the dog was healthy.  I see breeders websites loaded with show pictures, dogs winning blue ribbons, but they neglect to tell people that their dog was the ONLY dog entered that day.  UKC winning dogs/CH dogs that never competed against another Mastiff.  BUT IT LOOKS GOOD TO some PUPPY BUYERS! WELCOME TO THE WORLD of the internet!  Websites are advertising, marketing, we all do it, but how many that are honest about it is a good question.  We put up the BEST pictures of the dogs.  We need to get back to basics and back on the phone to question people!!

One point is, responsible EM breeders already know all about the BYB, the puppy mills of "our" breed, the tactics breeders use.  We try to inform people about them all the time as well. 

All of the "pet owners" of the  AM your comments have been great!  Maybe "breeders" are able to read between the lines of the approved AM breeders websites.  ALL of them contradict themsleves.  They all claim they drool less, or claim drymouth, but then say they don't drool any more than any other dog. 

IT was the drool less part that GOT YOUR ATTENTION to begin with.  Buy the dog, you WILL fall in love with it, and you WILL LOVE IT, even when they do DROOL!  (it IS a marketing ploy) 

I HATE to do this but I will throw a few breeders names out there (and please other EM people do NOT take offense that I am not mentioning you) take a look at Rockport Mastiffs, take a look at St Patricks Mastiffs... does the AM really look identical to the AM?  Isn't the real reason anyone wants a Mastiff to begin with the size of the dog?  IMPO I don't by into people wanting a smaller mastiff... people don't mind if their dog ends up small, they love it anyhow.. but the real reason they bought one was because it was supposed to be MASSIVE!  I have NEVER received an email asking for the smallest mastiff... the emails I get are ALWAYS asking for a HUGE dog, the biggest puppy possible, and people asking for a HEALTHY DOG!  The honest person that I am, I always say that no matter how responsible I am, no matter how careful I plan a breeding, I can NOT GUARANTEE a healthy puppy.  I CAN WARRENTY A PUPPY!  AM breeders say their dogs are healthy and that was the reason for the breed, people WANT TO HEAR that!  GREAT -BUY ONE!!  I enjoy the puppy buyers I have!   

Someone posted about not being able to find other people breeding AM's other than the "approved" breeders.  Go to usfreeads... there is an add posted there.  There are BYB of Am's as well.  It is all about the mighty dollar.  AM people really need to go back and start reading about the history of what they say they know.  What the AM people know is what they have been told by their breeder or the bits and pieces of information taken from websites that fit their puzzle.  Maybe we should get some Anatolian breeders and PET OWNERS on this site to explain to ALL of us their breed. 

The AM does not have any available genetic dna tests, Purebred dogs are just now being offered the oppertunity to DNA testing.  The genes for one breed are different in another breed.  It does bother everyone involved in the creation of the AM to know that  AM breeders are selling pups on FALSE information.  If you can read through all this stuff we are trying to get accross information to protect YOU!  We are trying to put information out into the world to let YOU make an educated decision.  That way when some thing does go wrong you can say that you were informed!  YOU take responsibilty for YOUR actions! 

 

These are some things that really bother me being posted about the AM

 

"The American Mastiff is a new and rare breed developed over twenty years ago by Fredericka Wagner of Flying W Farms" posted on an AM website

The word rare was used... well doesn't it sound better to have something rare?  Human nature says i want something that no one else has.. i want something that is not going to have problems, i would rather be lied to, than have a breeder actually tell me what could happen and the truth.  If i tell you one sibling to my girl has hip dysplaisa, you would be less apt to buy a puppy from my breeding.. if someone else doesn't know, or says there is no problems.. you would rather hear that, even though since no testing was done, the odds could be the same.  People do not want to hear the truth!    MARKETING is key to all of this..

 

I am not going to post both standards.. Am people should  study them both on their own.  They claim they look identical to the EM, but their standard has things that are NOT similar at all.. Mastiffs eyes are suppsoed to be DARK!  They are not supposed to be amber.  EM ears are not supposed to be rounded.  Mastiffs do not have a "tuck up" like the AM.  These are things that a breeder picks up on, not the average pet owner.  The average pet owner hears "they look identical to the EM". 

 

"Beware of breeders who are crossing Mastiffs with more aggressive breeds such as Pit Bulls to create large aggressive dogs or with Great Danes to generate size with no other concern.  All of these breeders sometimes advertise under the name of American Mastiff, but they are not the CKC (Continental Kennel Club) American Mastiff created by Fredricka Wagner.  Also beware of the Mastiff breeds Carnaris and Filo Brasilerio which tend to be more aggressive in nature than the English and American Mastiffs."  posted on same AM website..

Why is it ok for AM breeders to post such things on thier websites, but AM people take such offense if we put things on our websites or talk about the differences between the Am and EM.  The reason is... what we say hurts the sales and claims of the AM.  It puts doubt into some minds.  It is because they want to "protect" their breed.  They want people to know those other breeds are agressive and NOTHING like their breed.  Well WE (the EM community) WANT THE SAME (the AM IS NOT THE SAME AS THE EM)!!  But again, they are holding onto the English Mastiff to "sell puppies".  They have to use the word English over and over again.  Most of the information they advertise is information copied about the EM and a few words changed here or there. 

I too whould like to know why you (the AM community) is posting here on an EM board trying to convince us this is ok. AGAIN  i will be yet another asking for STATS, show us pedigrees of the tested EM's that were used in the beginning?  Show us the stats of the Anatolian Shpeards used.  Why couldn't all of this hard work being devoted into the AM been used to create better EM's if you wanted something "identical"? If you have so many deposits, and waiting lists are full... why are you so concerned with what we have to say?  If the Am community can make a council, MAKE A RESCUE!!  Why don't all of you that love your AM's so much and they are such awesome dogs, open your homes to the ones that are not so fortunate.  That would only take another website, and some love and devotion. Nothing in this owrld is forever anymore, there ARE people out there that just cannot take care of there dog any more.  There are i am sure situations when the approved 8 breeders must be full and cannot take back dogs.  But from previous posts, you are told to put them down!  What loving owner can possibly put their dog down?  It is endless contradictions!!   

Lastly, if AM puppy buyers think what i have to say is rude, snooty, whatever term you want to use for the day, I am OK with that.  I do NOT think that I am better than anyone.  I want puppy people that I can see myself being friends with.  I want puppy people that are 100% happy with their puppy, I want people that want to be part of my family.  I tell people right off the bat, "I may NOT be the breeder for you".  This is not a perfect world, people clash, personalities clash.  DOGS ARE NOT CHEAP, if you  are spending 1000's on a puppy ( i do not care what breed) just make sure it is the right dog for you! 

Sorry this is so long, just some feelings that have been building up, and needed to vent!  Everything said here has already been said in one way or another...


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Jennifer W
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Reply with quote  #350 
Gina, thanks for your kind offer to talk on the phone about Mastiffs, I may take you up on it if it is still good at a later date, this weekend and all of next week will be rather busy for me.  I too was confused about the $1,500 fixed price set by the breeders association , that is quoted online on one of the American Mastiff pages.  I posted a message a couple of weeks ago on one of the American Mastiff message boards about this topic and recieved a reply from one of the breeders on the breed council, that stated that the $1,500 was a maximum price set for a pet quality AM.

Ike

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