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Lshelley21

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Reply with quote  #1 

I was looking online with other things to do, and one thing i found was weight pulling.  I know this takes a toll on their legs and hips and everything, but i was wondering if anyone had any experience with this topic at all, and if there was any great books or anything like that ...or even a website or something.  I am not looking to do it myself, although i would like to watch one.  (way too much work!)


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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #2 
Our girl Emma did weight pulling a couple of times.  It was years ago when she was a young girl but she did great.  She beat all the swissies and won the event - it was pretty exciting.  If I remember correctly, she pulled 1300 lbs.  I felt it was safe for her to do because the swiss club put on the event and they had all the harnesses and plenty of people around that knew what they were doing.  She loved it.  She's also one of the mastiffs that did the lure coursing.  She's very well rounded - LOL!

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smmastiff

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If a dog is sound structurally and properly conditioned weight pulling will not harm the dog although they will become a bit cow hocked because the outside muscles will build up on the rear legs , Here is a picture of Deb Shooks :Moses: pulling 6900 pounds . I also did weight  pull with my Skippy. Its a lot of fun  

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Click image for larger version - Name: moses31.jpg, Views: 111, Size: 19.11 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: moses.JPG, Views: 39, Size: 23.76 KB 

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #4 
If they become cow hocked from weight pulling, it's not because of the outside muscles!



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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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ckjnbrown

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Reply with quote  #5 
6900lbs is absolutely amazing! 

To put that weight into perspective for someone who is unaware, there are only two V6 engined trucks that approach that kind of weight, and they are the Toyota Tacoma and Nissan Frontier which can tow (properly equipped) around 6500lbs. 

To pull my camper, I had to upgrade to a Nissan Titan with the V8, which can tow 10, 500lbs, a mere 3600lbs more than Moses the mastiff.  That is really something. 

Perhaps the engine power should be measured in dogs rather than horses. 

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Cedarhollow

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Reply with quote  #6 
Moses and Ron were great to watch!  I am the one that took that picture and to give a little bit of info on that pull...it was done in 16 seconds.  And if it wasn't for the fact that we ran out of weight...he would have pulled more! 

I used to participate in IWPA weight pulls regularly.  I just don't have the time anymore.  We loved it and the dogs loved it. 

Dogs compete in weight classes.  I also had  CockerX that LOVED to pull.  We had just brought her along for fun one time and she gave it a try in the smallest class and did fantastic.  She was in the under 30lb class.  Well, during her 'career' her top pull was 1840lbs.  Not too shabby for a pip squeak!! 

IWPA pulls are VERY safe.  If you would like more info on weight pull harnesses, training, etc...feel free to contact me.  I would be happy to help. 

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #7 

No matter how well a harness is designed, it still must connect to the dog at some points on it's anatomy.

In Mastiffs, we are pushing the boundary on size to the limit in the canine world. There are enough stressors placed on this breed as it is!

Coupling 7000 lbs to a dog which is over-designed to begin with, can make for a bad combination.

In a natural state, dogs are not designed for pulling things other than their own body mass.

Since the weight pulling competition serves no purpose, other than to amuse the onlookers and impress statistic books like Guinness, why subject the dogs to extreme loads?

A knee, or hock could fail, muscles torn and ligaments & tendons placed at risk.

Perhaps there is a very low incidence of injury at these competitions, I don't know, but why chance fate, especially at these absurd weight levels???

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Highlander

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Reply with quote  #8 

It looks fun, but I agree with Steve....


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1dogsnob

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Reply with quote  #9 
actually our orthopedic specialist suggests using your dogs for pulling (not those extreme loads) for building up of the crutiate ligaments and rears. 

one of the therapies that he has us do after the 16 wks have gone by of crate rest is lite pulling.  He does suggest carts,  centerblocks, wheelbarrows.  This helps build up the ligaments and muscles that have been not used while in rest and  rehabilitation.

i have never done this.  mine would look at me like you are crazy this time!!

courtney d
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #10 

Nothing wrong with resistant exercises to build & tone muscles, but taking this to the outer limits is just nuts in this posters view!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Kelly

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Reply with quote  #11 
Steve, I agree with you on this one. However I also was sitting here thinking maybe it's just like in humans who do this sort of thing, it's a sport to them. Makes no sense to me but to each their own.
BTW this is scary I think I have said I agree with you a few times lately......LOL 


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Cedarhollow

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Reply with quote  #12 
Gee, Steve - I guess since Conformation, Obedience, Agility, etc are just there to amuse the onlookers and impress statisticians...I should quit those, too! 

While actively pulling in IWPA (International Weight Pull Association) pulls there was 1 injury at an event...and that was a torn toenail of a dog that got their toenail caught in the carpet.  That was over a 15yr span.

However, just like any sport you don't start it without training first.  Would you go into a conformation ring without practicing?  Obedience without training?  Same here. 

Not to mention, Mastiffs are a working dog.  History has them doing more draft and freight work (heavy pulling) then they ever did running around a ring looking pretty.  Bottom line is that this is just one more activity to do with your dog.  If you enjoy it and if your dog enjoys it...then by all means...give it a try!! 

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Jamie Morris
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Kelly

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Reply with quote  #13 
Jamie, I don't think any of us that said we wouldn't want to do it meant that there was anything wrong with you or anyone else doing it. It's like I said in an earlier post, to each their own. I think it's great that people can find other things to do with their dogs than just show them in conformation. I want to find new things to do with my dogs as well, just not this. No offense meant towards you or anyone else....

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Kelly,Collin, and Windie
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Cedarhollow

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Reply with quote  #14 
Kelly - My response was not directed at you.  Just the Expert on All Things, Steve.  No offense taken with your post.  Not every sport is enjoyed by every person. 


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Jamie Morris
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #15 
Jamie,

Whether you like it or not, I do have an opinion.

In my view, it's absurd to strap a 7000 lb load to a Mastiff just for records!

I did state that other resistant methods, which includes carting, can be beneficial to an exercise program.

Common sense should tell anyone, not just the "expert on all things", that stessing a Mastiff to that limit is absurd.

You can't compare that to the other forms you've mentioned such as conformation etc.



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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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TAMPA - A national animal rights group wants Hillsborough authorities to investigate cruelty toward a horse that died after a weight-pulling show last month at the Florida State Fair.

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals sent a copy of its letter to the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office on Tuesday, asking that charges be filed because state law prohibits overworking or overloading an animal.

A 12-year-old Belgium horse died of a heart aneurism after it participated in the fair's Draft Horse Pull Show on Feb. 15, said Terry Yoder of Wildwood, the event organizer.

"It's just one of those deals that happened, and there's nothing that anybody did wrong," Yoder said.

Hillsborough sheriff's spokeswoman Debbie Carter did not have details on the status of an investigation, because the deputy looking into it was unavailable.

Jackie Vergerio, the animal entertainment specialist with PETA, said the organization sent the letter after talking to a witness who said the horse had been bleeding and frothing from the mouth after its pull and not given access to water.

Travis Claytor, a Florida State Fair spokesman, said that the horse's death was a private matter being handled between the event promoter and the horse's owner. He said the Horse Pull Show had been going on for several years and described it as "one of the more popular shows at the fair."

Yoder said that in the show, horses pull six heavy loads for about 3 seconds each time, before taking a rest.

Kevin Graham can be reached at 813 226-3433 or kgraham@sptimes.com.

[Last modified March 7, 2007, 01:03:40]


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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smmastiff

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Reply with quote  #17 
Jamie I agree with you .
Steve is not familiar  with weight pull,  the so called experts can say what they want but I have seen more dogs hurt at agility then weight pull.
 Mastiffs are working dogs !!! They should be built solid and strong and should be sound enough and strong enough to do it,  I bred to Moses because in my mind he is what a mastiff should be strong , solid, sound and willing to work and he was sweet as "little bug to boot".
There are many competitions that push animal athletes, such as lure coursing , fox hunting,  agility etc

 
And Steve, Moses got a bit cow hawked while conditioned and pulling but when he quit pulling and was not as muscled he was no longer cow hawked ,,
The cow hawking in the case of weight pullers comes from the over developed muscle.  


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Cedarhollow

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Reply with quote  #18 
Have you ever been to a weight pull, Steve?  One by dogs?  Not horses, cattle or anything else used to pull weights.  Let me tell you how an IWPA pull works.  (We put on MANY during our 15yrs.)

The 'chute' is done on a level surface...as smooth as possible.  Usually carpet.  The start and finish lines are 16ft apart.  The dog has 60 seconds to pull the weight across the finish line, or to get the cart moving an keep it moving.  The cart will be moved to any place behind the starting line the handler wishes.  (side to side)  The handler can in no way touch the dog, use bait, etc.  They can call the dog, etc.  If the dog does not want to pull the weight...can't pull the weight...you can't make them.

Then when the pull is over...the humans move the cart back!  There is also a break person that keeps the cart under control.  (To keep the cart from running over anyone at the end of the pull or if the dog stops to fast!)  Yes, it is a lot of weight...it sounds impressive...and depending on what is being used for weight...it looks REALLY impressive!!  But, once that cart is moving...it is not that bad. 

If ANYONE is thought to not be caring for their dogs properly during competition...they WILL be dealt with!!  What about people competing in agility in 100 degree heat?  You hear of dogs suffering heat stroke every year at shows.  Stuff happens EVERWHERE.  If people are not caring properly for their animals...don't blame the activity...blame the people responsible.

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Jamie Morris
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smmastiff

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Reply with quote  #19 
Well said Jamie.

Quote:
by Steve
In a natural state, dogs are not designed for pulling things other than their own body mass.


Steve this is the silliest thing I have heard you say . Dogs are far from there natural state .
In their natural state horses were not meant for riding and carrying a human on it's back , cows were not meant to produce 5 gallons of milk a day. In the wild birds do not lay one egg a day every day for 8 months solid. I could go on and on.
Our domestic animals are designed by us and Mastiffs were originally bred for many tasks  requiring power and were used to pull weight,  turn heavy stone mills, along with other things.  
The very confirmation of a mastiff dose not suggest endurance such as in your deep chested whippets but instead   because of the broad width of the chest, might and power.




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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #20 

Nonsense!

You're rationalizing away something that makes no sense whatsoever and then comparing it to "oranges" in 100 degree temperatures!


Quote:

I bred to Moses because in my mind he is what a mastiff should be strong , solid, sound


No doubt Sharon, that you are totally objective!

Quote:
 
In their natural state horses were not meant for riding and carrying a human on it's back


Would you have a contest to see how much weight a horse could carry on it's back, before it couldn't take one more single step?

The issue is the extreme load, not the act of carting, or placing a rider on the back of a horse!.

The compression of the spine, among other factors, is the structural system which must absorb the load. Gravity forces the 7000 lbs downward, but breaking inertia is what can take it's toll on the Mastiff pulling a crazy weight.



Big difference between the above and the below!

A man in a wagon is pulled by two dogs along a dirt street.

Fred Vaillancourt, Figure 2

FROM: Fred Vaillancourt And His Dog Team
ORIGINAL CAPTION: Fred A. Vaillancourt,
General Advertising Dog Team
Former Grand Trunk R.R. Brakeman
CREATOR: n/a
DATE: Circa 1910
DIMENSIONS: 4 x 2.5 in
SOURCE: Robert Bogdan Collection



 

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #21 



Please watch the entire video and note the right rear foot after the weight increases.

"Good girl"..."Good girl".................spare me!

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #22 
The irony of this topic.............

As a young boy I fell in love with Buck, the Saint Bernard in the Gable movie Call Of The Wild!

After the sled pulling contest in the movie, I wanted a Saint before any other breed.

Ironic, that the very scene which convinced a young boy to desire a Saint, now tells the man, that it is a useless contest that can only lead to injury over time.



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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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smmastiff

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Reply with quote  #23 

Oh Steve I do hate getting into these things but

You can dig up trash on any sport .
Accidents can happen in any sport, Neglect can happens in every sport .

That dose not make the sport wrong, just the idiots.
You can join PETA and ban all dog sports.
Those poor retrievers jumping into freezing cold water , those poor agility dogs going over jumps and over dangerous A frames , those poor fat unconditioned show dogs being forced to run around the ring  on hot days , those poor carting dogs at risk of injury due to a cart flipping or a wheel suddenly hanging up on something causing the dog to be jerked to a stop. Those poor lure coursing dogs tripping over wires at full speed , The list goes on and on.  
As for your picture of the dogs pulling the man in the cart, those dog will be pulling many thousands of pounds  if asked to pull that man up a hill and if they pull him up a long hill the stress on those dogs would far surpass pulling a weight for a few short feet . Do your math and figure that one out .


A well conditioned weight pull dog is and is far more healthy and less likely to suffer injury   then a pampered fat family pet is in running up the stairs or when playing with another dog .  


Quote:
Quote:

I bred to Moses because in my mind he is what a mastiff should be strong , solid, sound

No doubt Sharon, that you are totally objective!
You are darn right I am biased.
A mastiff who can pull 6900 pounds and never be lame a day in his life is the kind of health testing that surpasses all the lab xrays you can think of.
This is the kind of thing a mastiff should be able to do.
Quote:
Ironic, that the very scene which convinced a young boy to desire a Saint, now tells the man, that it is a useless contest that can only lead to injury over time.
My Skippy never experience a day of lameness from weight pull and Moses retired as the top weight pull dog in North America with out that  injury you speak of, he was sound to the day he died .
 
If you took a dog in poor condition and with poor confirmation and with poor health yes he could suffer injury  weight pulling , he  would also suffer health problems from running up stairs or playing rowdy with another pet .
A top conditioned weight pull dog is less likely to get diabetes, suffer stroke, or heart attack or suffer tendon and ligament and structural damage then a unconditioned family pet just doing normal day to day doggie activities .
I have shown confirmation , competed in weight pull, drafting , done agility and tracking and  carting with my mastiffs with never once an injury involved.
Except the time Mountain sat down on an ant hill.
And Mose or Skippy never had back problerms.
 
 
 
 
 

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #24 

Your experience may be valid for you, but it is still anecdotal!

If you viewed the video, please inform me of how wrong I am in pushing limits to the absurd!




This is not about Peta, or restricting the various activities in the world of dogs.

Good common sense can go a long way and strapping a ridiculous weight to a dog and then  praising it for nearing it's breaking point, is cruel in my "distorted" view!

Quote:
 
As for your picture of the dogs pulling the man in the cart, those dog will be pulling many thousands of pounds  if asked to pull that man up a hill and if they pull him up a long hill the stress on those dogs would far surpass pulling a weight for a few short feet . Do your math and figure that one out .


Well, if I do the math, the weight being pulled can never exceed the combined total weight of the man & buggy. If the man minus legs weighed 100 lbs and the buggy weighed 200 lbs, that would be 300 lbs being pulled by two dogs, or 150 lbs each and that would be at an incline. On a level surface, the weight being pulled would be considerably less.

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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divinemastiffs

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Reply with quote  #25 

I think your view on weight pulling is based on your experience with it or your interpretation of what it is.  People that have had good experiences think it is good people that have bad experiences with it do not agree and think it is bad.

I have only seen one dog weight pull they have I think a big one here in Denver held in conjunction with the National Western Stock Show (there were 4 pulls going on at the same time).  At first I was very interested it looked like another activity that I could do with my dog.  But after more and more weight was added and the dogs were being (in my opinion) encouraged to endure pain I never wanted to see another weight pull.  I finally left after multiple dogs cried out in pain and three fell to the ground and had to be carried away.  I still wonder what happened to those dogs, the people taking them away looked mad at the dogs not concerned with their well being. I left and never looked back.

Maybe this trial was pushing the limits farther than a normal trial does and it may or may not be typical but this was my only experience with them.  So right now my opinion on them is that I do not agree with weight pulls and I have in my contract that no dog I sell can be used for weight pulling. 

However I have been working with the Bernese Mountain dogs on various specialty events and know that they hold drafting at their specialties and do not normally have injuries.  I do not know what if any the difference is between drafting and weight pulling.  If I had a current puppy buyer contact me and say they were very interested in it I would not say no way it is in your contract that you can not do it. I may now consider it but would have a lot of criteria to look at before I would agree to it.  The history of the owner and my relationship with them would be my biggest and first criteria. I would both have them do a lot of research on it as well as I would learn more myself.  I would inquire why they wanted to do it. I would encourage them to start with carting like we have at specialty (going through the coned course with little or no weight).  If I felt the owner was fully educated and the dog could participate safely, I would still be involved every step of the way in the training and the have a say in the trials they attended. For instance I think that a trial held at a Bernese Mountain Dog Club Specialty or another breed specialty would be much safer than the trial I saw. Just my thoughts

Mary DeLisa

 


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