Register  |   |   |  Calendar  |  Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #1 



Depth of chest has nothing to do with the Appendicular structure and Wynn was incorrect in his portrayal of height coming from depth of chest.

The axial structure is separate from the appendicular structure.

A correct layback of shoulder cannot increase height, unless the shoulder assembly is straight!

Therefore, Wynn's wording was incorrect, as he was not an anatomical intellect, but was a reverend with good intentions!

"31" -33" are to be desired!"

Wynn did not want 29" Mastiffs to rule the breed!

Wynn was confused regarding locus of weight and height requirements! He then postulates that height must come from depth of chest, even though it cannot!

"Over legginess" was his warning, and in order to issue his intentions, he wrongly used depth of chest as his axiom of correctness, as it pertains to height. The key word is "over"! He did not want a tall mastiff coming from the lower appendicular structure. He wanted tall Mastiffs, but he wanted them balanced and substantive. A 50-50 scapular to elbow-elbow to ground ratio would have sufficed, but he needed to incorporate the depth of chest as well, and so the wording emerged after the fact and created a subjective dissonance of sorts!

Knowing that the Mastiff is front loaded, he wrongly gave that area too much liability for height requirements. "As this tends to develop the weight, more or less, of the whole animal"! No mention is made about the chest falling below the elbow! He knows that height is a disputed point! The picture shows a Mastiff without much depth of chest below the elbow ( if this picture is in fact from Wynn's example ).

In subsequent standards, "depth of chest" was utilized as a knee-jerk response to convey height requirements ala Wynn! In fact, it has created short legged Mastiffs that breeders deem correct based on their subjective interpretations of the standard!

All this emanating from just ONE man, who had the power to influence many, even though it was short lived!

Today, we dare not challenge that view, or review the true intentions behind the wording, even if it was incorrect in total scope!

So Steve raises this issue and usually gets shot down for exploring this anomaly, even though some feel that history is not important and the "true" mastiff type has been set in stone!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed!

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
Jademmastiffs

Registered:
Posts: 2,783
Reply with quote  #2 

Havent we already talked about this, recently?


__________________
Tina W.
Jadem Mastiffs

~** http://www.jademmastiffs.com ~**

I have a low tolerance for stupid....so dont push it!
(crazy, however, is perfectly acceptable)

0
Highlander

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 5,206
Reply with quote  #3 

Yes, it has... 


__________________
Steph
"The superior man is modest in his speech but excels in his actions" Confucius
"Leadership is based on inspiration, not domination; on cooperation not intimidation. - William Arthur Wood

This post may not be forwarded, copied, transmitted, or reprinted without the permission of the sender
0
Kiokeemastiffs

Registered:
Posts: 453
Reply with quote  #4 

  Summer reruns?


__________________
Cathy (Catie) C. Arney
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #5 
It was discussed in a different forum. There are many here that may have never familiarized themselves with the concept and it's irregularities as originally written!

Sorry if you have all become expert in this regard, but I thought some might want to see the epigenesis of the wording, as it exists presently in the standard.

__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #6 

Wynn's pre-standard of 1873 states:


Quote:

Many good dogs are only 28-29" high; but from 31 to 33" are to be desired.
Height should ever be accompanied with massive build and length, and should proceed from the shoulder to the elbow, rather than from the elbow to the foot. I mean, the height of the dog should be derived from the depth of chest, rather than from over-legginess, as this most tends to develop the weight more or less of the whole animal. 


This preliminary outline was later abridged and simply printed as "height coming from depth of body not from length of limb". Interesting to note, that this was omitted from the OEM standard to this day and only added back to the MCOA standard post 1981 amended standard revision.

So once again we can see how Rev. Wynn metaphorically used this symbolic description of body depth to be the cause of height, when in truth, body depth can never relate to height! He had it right the first time when he stated, "Height should ever be accompanied with massive build and length, and should proceed from the shoulder to the elbow, rather than from the elbow to the foot."

Had he stopped at that point, we would all clearly understand that he didn't want long legged Mastiffs! When he added " I mean" and then used his metaphor to further his explanation, he made a fatal error!

As a result, some breeders started breeding short legged Mastiffs and height was compromised. The very thing that Wynn desired for the breed!

Other breeders bred for a 60-40 leg assembly (60% from shoulder to elbow and 40% from elbow to foot). If the chest is further dropped below the elbow of a 60-40 structure, the dog appears to be out of balance and loses symmetry. It can also contribute to bloat, as very deep chests increase the percentages of gastric torsion.

Ideally, a 50-50, to a max of 55-45 structure is best for almost any Mastiff, and then when the chest dips below the elbow, the dog is still in very good balance & proportion.(bear in mind that the first percentage number is variable and is determined by the shoulder layback and not from some added height through other forces)(the second number is a fixed length that can appear long when the layback is angled more than 45 degrees. That should not be faulted when breeding, as opposed to a truly long leg!)


Sorry if this seems a repeated subject, but this has been a gross anomaly for way too long and deserves to be brought back to the surface periodically, since the AKC standard still uses this erroneous concept, in depth of body reflecting height!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
teresa

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 333
Reply with quote  #7 
Well, Steve thats really interesting since I just saw a tall Masiff today that had a very shallow chest and long legs...not at all what a Mastiff should look like . A mastiffs height will obviously be taller if he has a deep chest as opposed to a shallow chest. He can also have lots of leg too, but then he starts looking like a Dane! I'll take a Camo or a Finny ANYDAY!
__________________
http://www.oasismastiffs.com
Align yourself with those with kind hearts, gentle spirits and honest intentions. Be a good friend and let good friends know how much they are valued! Live every day with the intention of doing what is right...
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #8 
If that same Mastiff had a chest down to the ground, he would still not have gained one millimeter in height!

Height is not controlled by depth of chest!

It's controlled by the appendicular skeletal system.

We are talking about height, not about what a Mastiff should, or shouldn't look like!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
Ern

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 15
Reply with quote  #9 
It sounds as though some of you are saying that it is impossible for a tall mastiff to have great depth of chest? A well proportioned mastiff, of "any height" will not appear leggy....

Great bone, depth, breadth, length etc., will create a well balanced, structurally sound and fantastic balanced mastiff at any height.....

Slab-sidedness is not what a mastiff should like at all either. So we remedy this fault by careful breeding practices. Why not do the same with tall mastiffs who appear "leggy". Sustain their height while carefully breeding other needed attributes.

I guess one could surmize that the easiest way to correct the "leggy looking mastiff" is to breed height out...... This is posed as a question!!
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #10 
Almost every molosser in the animal kingdom possesses a 50-50 ground to elbow/elbow to withers ratio.

The construction of a chest is a separate structure, unrelated to height.

What Wynn considered leggy, was a ground to elbow ratio, greater than the elbow to withers ratio.

So he used a metaphor to try to get this point across. Taken literally by some, it was assumed that the ground to elbow should be 1/3 the total height of the dog. If one considers that the standard also calls for a chest to fall at or below the elbow, we can envision a 30" Mastiff in profile who's chest is only 7" off the ground!

"We are therefore looking for a very large, very powerful, and very massive dog, but the massiveness and height must come from the depth of the body rather than the legs, in the approximate proportions of two-thirds body to one-third legs."

The above is from the Baxter/Blaxter interpretation of the standard. When I spoke to Betty Baxter about this issue, she agreed that it was too severe. You can have depth of chest and still maintain a 50-50 leg ratio.



__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
CalKal

Registered:
Posts: 4
Reply with quote  #11 
Thank you Steve, I am new to researching mastiffs and your post has been most helpful. To learn something thoroughly it helps to go over the material in several different ways...speaking of which, where can I find the other post where this topic was discussed? Thanks again!
Cal

__________________
Calvin J Kalmon
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #12 
Calvin, sorry for the delay in responding. You can also check the WMF (World Mastiff Forum) and hit search for depth of chest, etc.
__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #13 
I like what the DDB standard states on this for their breed.

Basically, "the depth of chest is more than half the height at the withers".

At least this wording does not involve height coming from depth of chest, since height can never come from anything other than leg assembly lengths.

The DDB wording speaks of chest depth as it relates to symmetry in profile, nothing more.

__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.


THANK YOU FOR VISITING OUR BOARD!!