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mariaruoto
Registered:1156726881 Posts: 3,846
Posted 1195071624
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#2
I'd love answers to the following questions: Do you know the history of the "AM"? Who are the foundation dogs? Is there any proof of the actual mix that started the "AM"? - "foundation stock" just doesn't cut it. Any health testing proof? What is your definition of selective breeding (it doesn't mean only a handful of people can breed)? From the stock I see the "AM" breeders working with - there isn't much type consistancy or health testing as to be called selective. What steps have been taken for you to be a recognized breed?
__________________"I hope that someday they can understand that it's not 'just a dog', but the thing that gives me humanity and keeps me from being 'just a (man or) woman'." ~Biby '06
Maria S. Ruoto
Dunraven Mastiffs
http://www.dunravenmastiffs.com
Mastiffs4U Store
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Posted 1195073879
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#3
I tell you that there is 4 pages of ads in my local paper selling back yard bred mastiffs and you think your biggest problem is whether or not I can prove my dogs' heritages?
But if you are really interested I can direct your questions to the AMBC Executive Council and they will be able to provide you with all this information.
mariaruoto
Registered:1156726881 Posts: 3,846
Posted 1195074570
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#4
I'm addressing your points regarding the "AM" in this post. P lease check out other the adoption/rescue threads regarding BYB ads. Also, many of these listing are for: Cane Corso, French Mastiff, Dogue de Bordeaux, Neopolitan/Cane Corso mix, CKC Mastiff pups (which means they could be ANYTHING), etc...Also, many are repeat listings. Please don't take an argumentative posture and try to turn my questions around on me. I suppose the simple answer would be that - you can't answer these questions. Thank you. ps - I take accountability for my dogs. Yes, I do know where my puppies are and I am in regular contact with their owners. In fact, I'm going to visit one in Boston next month.
__________________"I hope that someday they can understand that it's not 'just a dog', but the thing that gives me humanity and keeps me from being 'just a (man or) woman'." ~Biby '06
Maria S. Ruoto
Dunraven Mastiffs
http://www.dunravenmastiffs.com
Mastiffs4U Store
clydeman
Registered:1161795650 Posts: 403
Posted 1195074720
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#5
BettyR: I can see the mastiff in your dogs. It also looks like you take good care of them. Good job.
What we have been hearing is that the start of the AM is very similar to these "Designer Breeders". The original intent was to cross 2 different breeds to collect on a niche market. It doesn't appear to me a noble endeavor like Bull Mastiffs where the breed was designed to save human lives. It doesn't appear to be as noble as even the Australian Cattle Dog which was needed to help herd the cows. It appears like the beginning was similar to a puppy mill trying to make a buck. I am not against capitalism or trying to earn some money, however, I am against doing it irresponsibly. Anatoly’s are not known for the best of temperaments. You couple this with the size and power of the mastiffs and you can have problems.
I don't think the people on this board consider you or your dogs the problem but rather the ridiculous claims from the AM breeders. We have been on their web pages and seen "they drool less", "they are healthier", "No hip dysphasia", etc etc etc etc etc etc. These are PR claims to sell dogs and they were focused at the EM Breed. These people are saying what it takes to sell a dog (at extremely high prices) whether true or not. There are exceptions to the rule but most of the people that got into the AM did so because of the claims from these breeders or planed on breeding themselves because of the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Your AM's are probably great dogs. They have to be they have a lot of their blood lines from the mastiffs. Mastiffs are great dogs with great temperament. They are loving and somewhat protective of their owners/property. It's probably the mastiff in your AM that you like and admire. The question is whether the Anatoly improved anything or made things worse. Since the original breeding stock appeared to come from an auction, it is highly doubtful that they had the best intentions to improve anything but merely was looking for a market and used the unfounded claims to do so.
We are just trying to show the public that AM's are not bad dogs but rather shed the light on the matter and bebunk the claims and sales pitch. In our eyes these designer dogs (including the AM) are nothing but a cross breeding system to make money. Just because some good intentioned people like yourself, who got involved with the AM, don’t change the facts or the history or the original intent. There is probably some good intentioned honest people that will get involved with these newest designer breeds mentioned on the other threads also but it don’t change the FACT that they are nothing but a cross breed equivalent to a mongrel and people are getting duped. You obviously don’t agree with the new designer breeds according to your post but the EM community doesn’t see any difference between these designer breeds and the AM.
As I understand it, these designer dogs are going for thousands of dollars per dog. Please use some common sense here and understand the motive behind these breeders. It’s good ol American Capitalism at its worst.
__________________ Dwight
http://www.linguardmastiffs.com
mariaruoto
Registered:1156726881 Posts: 3,846
Posted 1195074980
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#6
This is page one of your link: I suppose these people don't know that the dogs they "bred" are Dogue de Bordeaux's - or maybe they just think the work MASTIFF will help them sell more pups?!Houston Chronicle Shopping
French Mastiff puppies For Sale, 4 left. Call 281-615-5820
11/14/2007
Houston Chronicle Shopping
Dogue de Bordeaux, / French Mastiff puppies. / $800 obo. 281-825-9587 /
11/11/2007
Kingwood Yard Sales
NOW TAKING DEPOSIT WE HAVE 2 FEMALES 3 MALE LEFT THEY WE BE READY ON DEC 6 THEY ARE 2 WEEKS OLD
11/10/2007
Houston Chronicle Shopping
NEOPOLITAN MASTIFF ANE CARSO Special Pups; wormed,born 10/07/07.
11/09/2007
Houston Chronicle Shopping
AKC English Mastiff puppies available Nov 28. De-wormed and vet check. Females $800-$1000 Males $1000-$1250 All Brindle. 409 751 4092 deposits
11/07/2007
Kingwood Yard Sales
Neapolitan mastiff female 4months old tail docked,ears cropped and up to date on shots.8326735195
11/05/2007
Houston Chronicle Shopping
English Mastiff ABSOLUTE Quality AKC pups "HUGE" $1000 281.342.8262
11/04/2007
Houston Chronicle Shopping
Neapolitan Mastiff pups, taking deposits now. mortonsneomastiffs.com All are reg.408 849 1505 /
11/04/2007
Conroe Yard Sales
CKC English Mastiff Pups They will be ready in 5 weeks.
11/01/2007
Tomball Garage Sales
11/01/2007
So a total of 2 listings on the first page are for AKC Mastiffs. The third one doesn't say one way or the other...this one should be thrown in jail as far as I'm concerned. She is letting these pups go at just over 6 weeks (if they were 2 weeks on the 10th and she is letting them go on Dec 6).
__________________"I hope that someday they can understand that it's not 'just a dog', but the thing that gives me humanity and keeps me from being 'just a (man or) woman'." ~Biby '06
Maria S. Ruoto
Dunraven Mastiffs
http://www.dunravenmastiffs.com
Mastiffs4U Store
Registered:Member deleted Posts: N/A
Posted 1195077633
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#7
I understand your concerns but you have to understand that I am a 57-year-old woman who has been involved in the doggy world since the early 70’s. I began showing my German Shepard’s in 1972 and by the mid 80’s I became very disillusioned with what I was seeing happening in the world of purebred dogs.
I left the German Shepard world feeling that all was lost there and took up what I thought was the good fight to save the Rottweiler breed from suffering the same fate as the Shepard’s. Well you know how that turned out. Your chances of finding a Rottweiler these days that is not negatively affected by careless breeding is about as good as finding a hen with teeth.
I vowed in the mid 90’s to never purchase another purebred dog; all of my dogs came from the pound after that and I have had some wonderful dogs. Then by chance while at a little league baseball game I ran into a man with the most beautiful dog I had ever seen in my life. The dog was very well mannered and stood to let me pet him but he was at the same time aloof and extremely proud. I asked the man where he got his dog and he gave me Fredericka’s (Flying W) website and the rest is history.
My two dogs are the most well behaved dogs that I have ever had; they live to please me. When we are in public if they think there is something that might be a threat to my welfare they calmly place themselves between the perceived threat and me. What fool is going to reach across 2-150 pound dogs that are standing their ground? They don’t bark or growl they just stand there and dare this threat to advance. They are much more stable than any dog I’ve ever had and about 10 times more intelligent. There are times when I’m convinced that Fredericka must be doing human/dog genetic experiments in Ohio.
I truly believe that Fredericka and the rest of the breeders have the dog’s best interest at heart and I believe that with the care the breeders and Executive Council are taking to develop and preserve the breed that these wonderful dogs will be here for my grandchildren to enjoy.
By the way I also have two dogs that came from the local pound, I can't take them out in public, they try to bite, but they are good dogs for keeping coons out of my hen house.
ShawnC
Registered:1169180061 Posts: 84
Posted 1195081915
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#8
What you describe as your dogs temperament is true Mastiff temperament. If that is the temperament you want,then why not get a Mastiff? You also said you left German Shepard & Rottie world, basically because you didn't like what was happening to those breed! We are trying to do what you did in German Shepards & Rotties and protect or breed from over population and breed mixing.
__________________ Shawn
http://www.peerlessmastiffs.com
mariaruoto
Registered:1156726881 Posts: 3,846
Posted 1195083349
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#9
Quote:
I truly believe that Fredericka and the rest of the breeders have the dog’s best interest at heart and I believe that with the care the breeders and Executive Council are taking to develop and preserve the breed that these wonderful dogs will be here for my grandchildren to enjoy.
Why are claims of better health made, without any supporting documents? Why aren't the foundation dogs known? Why isn't the Anatolian (if that is what was used) named?
__________________"I hope that someday they can understand that it's not 'just a dog', but the thing that gives me humanity and keeps me from being 'just a (man or) woman'." ~Biby '06
Maria S. Ruoto
Dunraven Mastiffs
http://www.dunravenmastiffs.com
Mastiffs4U Store
Registered:Member deleted Posts: N/A
Posted 1195085291
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#10
Breed mixing was never a problem; you can’t register a mixed breed dog. As far as getting a mastiff, don’t think I didn’t look.
I contacted several breeders from the list I was given as in my area by the MCOA and asked for references, I didn’t get one response. I looked up people in the Houston area and contacted them looking for references I got the same response…nada.
I contacted Frederica and got a list of references as long as my arm and a lot of very friendly people who were more than happy to share their experiences with me. People gushing about how happy they were with their dogs and the amusing stories that went along with these sweet animals.
In my opinion it was a no-brainer.
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Posted 1195086040
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#11
mariaruoto
I'm sure I can get all that information for you if you really want it, but you have to remember that I don’t care if my dog is crossed with a jack rabbit as long as he or she is what is advertised and in my opinion I got that and more.
mariaruoto
Registered:1156726881 Posts: 3,846
Posted 1195087070
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#12
Quote:
I'm sure I can get all that information for you if you really want it, but you have to remember that I don’t care if my dog is crossed with a jack rabbit as long as he or she is what is advertised and in my opinion I got that and more.
If you can get this information you would be one in a million - as many have tried before! I'd love to see what kind of response you get. See if you can get the basics on the "AM" - health testing (which there should be documents proving all claims) details and actual pedigree/registration information on the "foundation stock" (there should also be documents proving any claims). Also, any proof of genetic testing that has been done to substantiate the 7/8 1/8 claim would be very interesting to see. I'm glad your happy with your dog. However, without any of the above documentation you really don't know that you got what was advertised.
__________________"I hope that someday they can understand that it's not 'just a dog', but the thing that gives me humanity and keeps me from being 'just a (man or) woman'." ~Biby '06
Maria S. Ruoto
Dunraven Mastiffs
http://www.dunravenmastiffs.com
Mastiffs4U Store
Registered:Member deleted Posts: N/A
Posted 1195093472
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#13
Quote:
I have one of each “type” the lean athletic shepardy type (the fawn) and the more Mastiffy brindle. I
A 'slender' looking AM and a Mastiffy one? How many types of AM are there? They look like two different breeds. You can argue that there are no two Mastiffs that look alike but they are more uniform (at least the better bred ones) There is a lot of nonsense here and nothing anyone can say will change my mind. I've been involved with the Mastiff since 1988 and in it for the long haul. I care very deeply about the direction our breed is taking and want to see it there for others to enjoy in the future. The last thing I wish to see is the Mastiff be a part of negative publicity. The cross-breeding of Mastiffs to other breeds destroys our breed...MY BREED!!! Thus far I haven't heard the true and relevant purpose of the AM, let alone the other mutt mixture! I have no sympathy for these mixed breeds and I do realize that the price tag on these is $$$. On another note....I've heard that some have chosen the AM to escape some health issues their Mastiffs have had. How exactly are you escaping these issues when the AM is half Mastiff? This is MASTIFF BOARD... put together to discuss the issues which affect our breed. To gather people who have a common bond...to promote the Mastiff and to preserve it...not to bastardize it. There have been many AM in shelters. This has created a huge problem with Mastiff rescue. I can't help the way I feel. I refuse to sit back and be silent. I respect the fact that people do own these dogs...but please, don't try to substantiate breeding crosses to create a 'better' breed of dog... Bes
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Posted 1195093553
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#14
mariaruoto-
Below is the advertisement that I was referring to and yes this is exactly what I got and in my opinion even more.
My dogs have only been to the vet for their yearly shots, I’ve had absolutely no heath problems with them at all. They are extremely strong, athletic and very full of life. We live in the “Big Thicket National Preserve” area of Texas and it is pretty wild country. They have taken their share of some pretty hard knocks and always come out on top. They are brave and extremely dedicated to their family.
Now if you were given the opportunity to have a dog with these qualities who’s heritage was in your mind questionable would you really turn it down?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE AMERICAN MASTIFF looks identical to the English mastiff in color, shape, size, etc. however, they have a much dryer mouth due to outcross early on in the history of the breed. They are very much the "gentle giant."
These wonderful dogs love children and are totally devoted to their family. wise, kind and gentle, they are patient and understanding, very loving with their own people. They are accepting and non-aggressive to your friends, visitors (and the postman), however if anyone threatens their family, especially the children, this dog will gladly give its life defending them.
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Posted 1195094088
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#15
Quote:
THE AMERICAN MASTIFF looks identical to the English mastiff in color, shape, size, etc. however, they have a much dryer mouth due to outcross early on in the history of the breed.
And THIS is reason enough for promote this mixed breed?Quote:
These wonderful dogs love children and are totally devoted to their family. wise, kind and gentle, they are patient and understanding, very loving with their own people. They are accepting and non-aggressive to your friends, visitors (and the postman), however if anyone threatens their family, especially the children, this dog will gladly give its life defending them.
Can you explain to me what, of which is mentioned above, does NOT pertain to the Mastiff? Again, outside of the 'drier' mouth (which I doubt your Mastiffy AM has), is the reason for this breed? Where is the American Mastiff Standard? What happened to the 'guarding' nature of the Anatolian? Did it disappear? If you can prove to me that this breed has a specific purpose that goes beyond the Mastiff....well, I guess I will listen. Bes
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Posted 1195094634
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#16
gwenstone
I’m really sorry that you are so bitter; my purpose in coming to this board was not to make anyone angry but to try and help you understand that the AM is not just a cross between this dog and that. It is an ongoing effort to produce another breed, hopefully a stronger and healthier dog that will live longer.
I’m not trying to make you want one or say that my dog’s better than your dog I was just hoping that we could come to some common ground and stop butting heads. There is room here for all our dogs…mixed and pure bred. To say, “I have no sympathy for these mixed breeds and I do realize that the price tag on these is $$$.” Sounds extremely cold, I hope I’m taking this the wrong way.
I guess I’d better say it was nice to meet you and I’ll be going now.
Betty
mariaruoto
Registered:1156726881 Posts: 3,846
Posted 1195094844
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#17
Quote:
mariaruoto- Below is the advertisement that I was referring to and yes this is exactly what I got and in my opinion even more. My dogs have only been to the vet for their yearly shots, I’ve had absolutely no heath problems with them at all. They are extremely strong, athletic and very full of life. We live in the “Big Thicket National Preserve” area of Texas and it is pretty wild country. They have taken their share of some pretty hard knocks and always come out on top. They are brave and extremely dedicated to their family. Now if you were given the opportunity to have a dog with these qualities who’s heritage was in your mind questionable would you really turn it down? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ THE AMERICAN MASTIFF looks identical to the English mastiff in color, shape, size, etc. however, they have a much dryer mouth due to outcross early on in the history of the breed. They are very much the "gentle giant." These wonderful dogs love children and are totally devoted to their family. wise, kind and gentle, they are patient and understanding, very loving with their own people. They are accepting and non-aggressive to your friends, visitors (and the postman), however if anyone threatens their family, especially the children, this dog will gladly give its life defending them.
Did your "breeder" provide you with any health testing records to substantiate the health claims? Why is the Mastiff even mentioned in the statement about the "AM"? Can you find another breed that compares itself to another breed? Why can't the "AM" stand on it's own? Why does it need to be exactly like the Mastiff?Quote:
Now if you were given the opportunity to have a dog with these qualities who’s heritage was in your mind questionable would you really turn it down?
Why would I want to own a dog stemming from a person who is not willing to disclose the genetic foundation of their mix? Who cannot back up any of their claims with hard cold proof? Why would I trust someone who bought her breeding stock at auction? Have you been able to find out any answers to the questions we discussed above?
__________________"I hope that someday they can understand that it's not 'just a dog', but the thing that gives me humanity and keeps me from being 'just a (man or) woman'." ~Biby '06
Maria S. Ruoto
Dunraven Mastiffs
http://www.dunravenmastiffs.com
Mastiffs4U Store
mariaruoto
Registered:1156726881 Posts: 3,846
Posted 1195095012
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#18
Quote:
I’m really sorry that you are so bitter; my purpose in coming to this board was not to make anyone angry but to try and help you understand that the AM is not just a cross between this dog and that. It is an ongoing effort to produce another breed, hopefully a stronger and healthier dog that will live longer.
What health testing is being done to produce better health? What effort has been made to try to be recognized by the AKC or enter the FSS (according to their standards, the "AM" would not be let in)?
__________________"I hope that someday they can understand that it's not 'just a dog', but the thing that gives me humanity and keeps me from being 'just a (man or) woman'." ~Biby '06
Maria S. Ruoto
Dunraven Mastiffs
http://www.dunravenmastiffs.com
Mastiffs4U Store
Registered:Member deleted Posts: N/A
Posted 1195095116
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#19
"There have been many AM in shelters. This has created a huge problem with Mastiff rescue. "Now YOU are the one who has to prove something. "Gwenstone" please prove the above statement. I peruse the rescue lists. Not one rescue could give me any information regarding an AM from the Flying W line.
mariaruoto
Registered:1156726881 Posts: 3,846
Posted 1195095408
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#20
Barb - I know several "AMs" have passed thru GLMR.
**edited to add** Mastiff rescue gets called for "AM's" in shelters or surrenders, since "AMs" do not have a rescue. Why isn't there an "AM" rescue? And, please, don't tell me it's because "AM" breeders take back any dog for any reason - b/c as we know from previous posts - that is not the case.
__________________"I hope that someday they can understand that it's not 'just a dog', but the thing that gives me humanity and keeps me from being 'just a (man or) woman'." ~Biby '06
Maria S. Ruoto
Dunraven Mastiffs
http://www.dunravenmastiffs.com
Mastiffs4U Store
Registered:Member deleted Posts: N/A
Posted 1195095834
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#21
Barb...http://mastiff.org/faq/ammastiff.mv I am sure there are a number of Rescue volunteers on this board who are more than willing to chime in. Do you have Mastiffs Barb? BTW, I need to substantiate nothing Barb. The Mastiff world is quite small. Bes
redheads
Registered:1164722276 Posts: 771
Posted 1195097027
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#22
I wasnt going to post on this topic,since it always goes in circles,no REAL answers are given,and it really is an agree to disagree thing.AMs ARE showing up in shelters!!I have a friend in my dog club whom breeds Anatolians,and can attest to their health problems and temperment(and is as against this mix as EM breeders).When a new breed is developed,it is for a particular purpose.I DO NOT SEE a purpose for this breed.Dry mouth,that is a reason,please!!There are other dry mouth breeds,are there not?Better health?/Are ya friggin kiddn me?Both breeds have equal health problems!!We all love our dogs,regardless of what they are,or where they have come from.This is not in question.I dont question that these breeders of Ams do love their dogs,and are responsible for them(I hope).BUT,the breeding programs do not appear to be based of facts.All anyone is asking for is a REASON WHY?Why not call them what they are,an Anatolian Mastiff.Why only focus on the Mastiff in the mix??Why not focus on the Anatolian,too.If you are PROUD of this breed,be upfront and honest!Dont hide behind the Mastiff name.This board consists of EM lovers and breeders.Can we not be PROUD of what we live for,our passion,without being called an AM racist?In regards to unethical,BYBs of Mastiffs...What in the world makes ya think the EM community supports that?Well,Whatever.Your right ,EM lovers are wrong.How dare we care about the future and purity of OUR breed,how dare we care about this noble breed,how dare we worry about OUR dogs on ban lists due to the ridiculous crosses.How dare we??
Highlander
Registered:1186925418 Posts: 5,206
Posted 1195098239
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#23
I picked up an one of the mixes and was bit by the damn thing. Needless, to say, it is dead. We brought it home, put our kids up and let him wander the house, he was here for 2 days. I got up one morning to let it out, put it's bowl down, when he was done eating and I went to get the bowl. He got me. He was fine for the first 2 days. I have had many Mastiffs in rescue come through my house and NOT ONE ever tried to anything. You are messing with 2 different types of Working Dogs and putting 2 different temperaments and traits together. They are DANGEROUS and giving my breed THE MASTIFF a bad name. They should never have been bred. They are a genetic mess. Contact Kim Wilson at FORM and ask about her rescued Mixed Breed aka AM. They will NEVER be recognized by the AKC not if the The Mastiff World has anything to do with it.
__________________ Steph
"The superior man is modest in his speech but excels in his actions" Confucius
"Leadership is based on inspiration, not domination; on cooperation not intimidation. - William Arthur Wood
This post may not be forwarded, copied, transmitted, or reprinted without the permission of the sender
redheads
Registered:1164722276 Posts: 771
Posted 1195098872
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#24
I checked out the AM breeder whom "developed" the breed.I could not find pedigree information on the original EMS whom were crossed?I do see they are crossing my beloved Gypsy horses with ponies and calling them "Gypsy ponies",whatever!!Apparently,they like to "develop" all kinds of new breeds.There are crosses allover the sight!!Does anyone know for sure they were auction dogs?That would truly be disgusting.I would love to know the truth?
Highlander
Registered:1186925418 Posts: 5,206
Posted 1195099109
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#25
They are crossing the Gypsy Vanner (my dream horse) with Ponies.... These people are profiteers.... http://www.irishcobireland.com/?gclid=CNrF9-n73Y8CFR-YWAod7VN77g http://images.google.com/images?q=gypsy+vanner&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=images&ct=title
__________________ Steph
"The superior man is modest in his speech but excels in his actions" Confucius
"Leadership is based on inspiration, not domination; on cooperation not intimidation. - William Arthur Wood
This post may not be forwarded, copied, transmitted, or reprinted without the permission of the sender