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Reply with quote  #126 
Betty, I do think it is more tragic to see a pure bred dog in a shelter. Why? Because someone, somewhere created these dogs and did not, have not, will not take responsibility for them. They are not "accidents". Responsible breeders take back their dogs, responsible dog owners do not "dump" dogs in shelters. Breeds of dogs do not survive without people who are the guardians of them and that is why rescue groups exist, mostly cleaning up after irresponsible dog breeders, brokers and their puppy buyers. The majority of pure bred dogs in rescue come from mills, shops and byb.
If the AM "community" desires respect from the dog world then they better get their act together and stop ridding on the back of "our" breed.
The Standard is an absolute joke, the club has no web site that I can find. I can't find an organized rescue and I can't find any record of conformation shows. The founder of the "breed" is a disgrace to the dog world, the whole situation is a disgrace.
Anyone who is a loving, caring dog owner will find respect here but do not ask for respect for the AM because it has not in any way, shape or form earned any respect.
The dog world has a long history of dedicated people who take breeding seriously and follow strict guideline. If the AM wants "in" this world then they should get their #$%& together and become respectable. I have more respect for the APBT - respect is earned in the real world.
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EileenDurante

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Reply with quote  #127 
 If the AM breeders insist on breeding let them define what one should look like. Come up with a standard of your own and make an effort at consistancy within the breed so that they may be identified as what they really are.

Another problem with the AM breed not having an official rescue or even breeders that will take responsibility for what they produced when the owners cannot keep them is they wind up in shelters. Of course if they look close to being mastiff, although a poorly bred one, the EM rescues are the ones who get that call to come and get them.

The EM community is a large one with big hearts and often bigger pockets when it comes to rescue. They hold fundraisers. Often the foster care homes reach down into thier own pockets to support these dogs in thier care. It is just not right that the EM community has to give up good potential homes to these AM mixed breeds and spend our donations on the imposters to have them vetted, spayed and fed. While at the same time these breeders are laughing all the way to the bank.

I would like to see just one cancelled check to FORM or the other mastiff rescues that wind up handling these mutts. I won't hold my breath. Put your money where your mouth is. If you can't set up a rescue of your own at least support the rescues that clean up after your messes.

Donations can be made via PAYPAL at the below link. Just click on the Paypal name >     http://www.mastiffrescue.org/main.htm




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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #128 

They don't even have a breed club - they have a council that is more like the Masons - everything is a secret!


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redheads

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Reply with quote  #129 

Amen,Eileen!!!Put your money where your mouth is AM lovers!!

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Reply with quote  #130 

I DO own two English Mastiffs as well as an American Mastiff. 

 

After reading this thread, I want to comment on a few different things.  Sorry for my randomness.

  

Rescue:  To anyone who spouts off about supposed AMs coming through rescue:  How many are bona fide American Mastiffs versus "mastiff mixes" with whatever other breed/s?"  I DID ask a volunteer at GLMR if they ever came into contact with an proven AM.  The answer was, "I don't think so."  Since then, I did hear of ONE possibly true AM that rescue received a call for.  Each breeder WILL take their dogs back, provided that they are proven American Mastiffs, not just assumed to be such! 

 

I find it very amusing that soooo many of you have supposedly come into contact with American Mastiffs..… when the majority of us American Mastiff owners have never even met another AM in person! 

 

Health:  I have a friend who has a EM whom is a few months younger than my AM.  She extensively researched breeders.  She finally decided on a breeder whom is well-respected in the EM community and is very reputable.  Well, she received a nice EM boy who has had bilateral TPLO procedures before he was 2-1/2 years old.  He also has bad hips.  He's not even three years old!  Did the breeder do extensive testing?  You betch! …..and all the testing in the world did WHAT for that boy??


Drool (my personal experience):  My American Mastiff, Murphy, only drools very slightly after a drink of water.  My English Mastiff, Maggie, only drools very slightly after a drink of water.  My English Mastiff, Frank, needs a drool bucket.  After he eats or drinks, I have to wash the floor and him.  Slingers have reached the ceiling.


Standard:  In regards to "standard," take a look at all the EMs.  They all look different.  Some have huge heads,  some don't.  Some are tall and thin, some are short and stocky.  Some have very little wrinkle, some have a ton.  Some have very droopy jowls, some don't at all. Some have long noses, some short.  The EMs DON'T all look alike.   There is a much more standard look to the AMs.  Yes, there are a few here and there who look a little more "shepherdy" in my eyes, but the differences are much less than in the EM breed.


A friend of mine who works in EM rescue has commented MANY times how much my AM, Murphy, looks EXACTLY like my EM, Maggie.  Don't bother wasting your time trying to tell me that she must be a "poor representation of the breed" because she is from rescue.  First of all, rescues come from all different situations, whether backyard breeders, reputable breeders, or puppy mills.  If the all-mighty AKC recognizes my EM, then she is a representative of the EM breed. 

  

Breeders:  I posted this question a couple of weeks or so ago in the "Puppymill vs. legit breeder" thread.  Nobody seemed to want to answer it.  Maybe someone can answer it now….

 

What label would you put on the following breeder? 

Reputable? 

Puppy mill? 

Backyard breeder?

 

Breeder had the number one female (MCOA National Specialty Winner's Bitch) two or three years ago.  Received a call saying one of his pups is in rescue.  Told the dog needs both knees repaired.  Does he want him back?  Breeder asks if  dog is altered.  Yes, he is.  No, breeder does not want dog back.  Rescue asks if he can contribute something financially toward dog's double TPLO surgery.  Breeder sends $25.00 (no, I'm not missing any zeros here).

 

Same breeder received a call saying another one of his dogs is in rescue.  Told dog has hip problems. Does he wants him back?  Breeder asks if dog is altered.  No, he is not.  Breeder takes him back. 

 

In what category does he fall as a breeder?

 

Hmmmm…. I just wonder why he would take an unaltered dog back but not an altered dog back.  Hmmm…. so he can breed MORE bad faults and $$$$$?

 

I guess that I just always assumed (and obviously very naively so) that if a breeder took the time, energy, and finances it takes to champion their dog/s, they obviously cared enormously about their dog/s and their breed as a whole. 

 

I just assumed (again, very naively) that this "care" about their dog/s and their breed would reflect in their breeding practices   …hence, a "reputable" breeder.   As I have pretty recently learned, this is obviously not always the case.  Very, very sad.   …and I guess club affiliation really has no bearing either. 

 

"Purebreed" versus "mix:"  Don't forget that the English Mastiff (just like EVERY other dog) is a MIX.  There is no "pure" anything when it comes to dogs.  EVERY breed was created by man to serve whatever purpose he so wanted at that time.  Let's not forget that the EM was crossed with bloodhounds, St. Bernards, Great Danes, etc., etc., to save it from extinction not THAT long ago.  What's the difference if the "mix" was 25+ years ago versus 50 years ago?  At what point in time do you think it's acceptable to call it a "breed"  ....and "pure" at that?"   Is it 30 years after the last mix?  Forty-five?  


Temperament:  I truly don't understand your concerns with "behavioral" issues in AMs, when all you have to do is check out the threads on you own site to realize the problems with behavior is very real in your own breed (and, as I can see it, much more so than in the American Mastiffs).  By the way, my AM took and passed the CGC test and TDI test right after he turned one year old.  He is an actively working Certified Therapy Dog.  We visit a retirement home, two women and children's shelters, and a mental health facility.  He is the most gentle, lovable, intelligent, trustworthy, faithful creature I have ever known.   ….all that, and he hasn't ever tried to "rip the face off" of any other living being, whether it's an infant or a 94-year-old woman with a walker!

 

The "NAME."   I have to laugh at some of the "reasons" you think the American Mastiff shouldn't be named as such.   It's absolutely ridiculous to even fathom the thought that the "unsuspecting public" would assume that an American Mastiff is an English Mastiff born in America!!  That's incredibly ludicrous!! I think that's quite an insult to the intelligence of the general public, whom I think can figure out exactly what the American Mastiff is just by going to any of the breeder's websites!  It's really not rocket science! That's like saying a German Shepherd born in America is an American Shepherd!   ….or an Irish Wolfhound born in America is an American Wolfhound…. and English Sheepdog…. etc.  

 

Do the English Bulldog people have a problem with the American Bulldog?  I also find it amusing that there doesn't seem to be any problem the "other" American Mastiff (the Panja) using the "Mastiff" name.  Why is that?  

 

…. and, by the way…. when I'm out with my dogs and people ask about them, I am PROUD to introduce them as their respective breeds and am PROUD to explain the differences, just as (I'm sure I can speak for most, if not all) American Mastiff owners are!

Pictured below is my American Mastiff and my female English Mastiff.  Can you tell the difference?


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Reply with quote  #131 
I'm wondering why AM people are being allowed to post on this board and continually bash the Mastiff breed.  There is no more education going on here just a platform for AM people to come bash our dogs, breeders and rescues.  

WHY?
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Reply with quote  #132 
I'm wondering why AM people are being allowed to post on this board and continually bash the Mastiff breed.  There is no more education going on here just a platform for AM people to come bash our dogs, breeders and rescues.  

Excuse me Linda... but who is bashing whom?  Just read the thread and all the other anti-American Mastiff threads!


 
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #133 
Clueless breeders, beget clueless owners, who then beget clueless fanciers and clueless followers!

There can never be any legitimacy to this cross, or acceptance from EM fanciers, even after the long shot of AM fanciers recognizing their folly!

Only then, can there be an understanding, but there can never be acceptance based on the unknown mix, or the fabricated reasons for the dumb attempt at creating a "better" mastiff.

The truth be told!!

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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #134 
Quote:
and all the testing in the world did WHAT for that boy?? 

We have all said here that testing is a tool - not a guarantee. It doesn't mean it shouldn't be done to aid in making breeding decisions. What were the parent's test results? I have 5 mastiffs - 1 not from health tested parents (before I knew better) - who thank the heavens has not had any major issues, 2 from fully health tested parents - who I have no issues with and the 2 from my breeding - currently 8 months old - with no issues/from fully health tested parents. Hip and elbow testing is not the only testing that should be done. Cardiac, PRA, CERF, thyroid, patellar, brucellosis, et...I'm sure there are healthy "AMs", but please don't talk as though each and everyone is perfectly healthy with no issues - we all know that not to be the case either - just as you read the Mastiff boards - some of us peruse your boards - and see the issues that pop up - I see limping, hemangiosarcoma, wobblers, bad stomachs, skin allergies, puppies being sent to their new homes sick, etc...

Mastiffs have a standard - that breeder's should be breeding to achieve. We show our dogs in conformation shows to see how well they meet the standard. Perhaps you've noticed that Mastiff breeders/owners are continuously discussing our standard and the possibility of refining it. As for the 2 different looks - there are Mastiffs that look more like the English type and more that look like the American lines (this will also help you understand the confusion that CAN happen with Fredricka's selected name for her mix.

I've heard of the "breeder" situation you describe. My only response to that would be (if ALL the details I have heard/read are 100% accurate and NOTHING has been left out) - would be a-hole. What is your response to "AM" breeders being uncooperative with owners whn they have problems (I have also seen that posted here and on an "AM" board), especially since there are only 12 of them?

OK - so you have an "AM" and a Mastiff that both drool very little - I'm sure there are "AMs" that drool as much as your other Mastiff - how has Fredricka achieved her grand goal if this is the case?

The potential risk for a more territorial response in the "AM" due to the Anatolian (if that's what was used) in the mix. All traits of both breeds in a mix have the potential to come thru.

Quote:
Do the English Bulldog people have a problem with the American Bulldog?  I also find it amusing that there doesn't seem to be any problem the "other" American Mastiff (the Panja).   


I don't know - you'd have to ask them. As for the Panja - I'm not all that familiar with them - but I don't think they look anything like Mastiffs, nor (to the best of my knowledge - and I repeat I am not very familiar with them) they do not base their standard or "claims" on the Mastiff, as the "AMs" do. HMMMM...but I guess "AM" people have an issue with them?

Your sarcasm and hostile tone regarding the AKC is not welcome. Would you like us to go into a diatribe of your "kennel club" - the Continental Kennel Club - is just about the biggest joke there is - so please don't cast stones.

I'm not playing the game of can you tell the difference - b/c in comparison to the Mastiff standard neither of the dogs you posted are good representatives of the Mastiff breed - and since there is no decent "AM" standard or key factors that set the the "AM" apart I really have nothing to compare it to anyway.

I've spent a good amount of time answering your questions/comments. Would you/could you be so kind as to answer any of the questions throughout this thread regarding your dogs? Foundation purpose, founding dogs, how is it seen fit to breed a girl 5 times by your council, why won't your council answer any questions, what should the "AM" look like (and please don't say the Mastiff), etc (there are a ton of questions posed in this thread)?

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Cammie

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Reply with quote  #135 

Panja -

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/americanmastiffpanja.htm

http://www.geocities.com/panja4/

BARF-
The drug lords of Detroit bred nasty, big dogs to each other and ultimately someone decided that this should be a breed.  The ultimate vanity seems to be that this "breed" is named the same as the kennel that promotes it.  The marketing ties the dog as being the preference of those who have low-riders.  To say that there is minimal information regarding the dogs temperament, health, standard or other fundamental information is to be generous.  Instead there is simply hype that they are "the best" and bred "to guard" (which is fundamentally a trait that is trained).  Anything they might be born with is more a weapon that must be properly maintained.  A "protection dog" is only as good as its training.  Otherwise it is merely a very dangerous animal regardless of breeding. 


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pilgrimspal

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Reply with quote  #136 

My personal opinion, and being very new to Mastiffs is this - take it for what its worth - like I said we are new and this is just 1 families experience:
If you are going to invest in something , say a new car, you do your research, make sure it fits your family needs, look at the features ect... Seems some people jump into dog purchases without thinking.  And Heck, we did it with our first dog!  We got a cockapoo.  was a cute little guy and great when alone with him but terrible with kids.  We learned a lesson the hard way.  Designer breeds open pandoras box of mixing and matching all faults of 2 not just 1 breed.  It does not mean you get a better dog!! You dont know what your going to get.  This is why the OEM breeders out their of merit have the feelings they have.  They know what if any problems they may have and strive to improve them!

the Cockapoo would get aggressive like a poodle when the kids were hyper playing and would nip at them.  He was territorial with the cat, marking in the house when noone was looking - he was fixed too ( NEVER have this problem with our UNfixed mastiff).  He barked and growled at other dogs, was extremely stubborn... probably every bad trait of a cockerspaniel and poodle combined!! 
Needless to say the cockapoo went to the grandparents where it was a much better fit for him and happily resides today.  Not a dog for an active house! 
When we finally decided to try at another dog my husband did months of research, decided on a mastiff then months of searching for the right dog.  We then met the breeder and parents of our pup. 

With all that said, he had good temperment bred in him but it has been defined from his training and environment.  My 2 year old throws herself on his side when hes sleeping to "hug big boy" as she says and he literally does not stir!  She has placed her hands right in his mouth to take back a toy he thinks is pretty neat too and he lets her take it.  She has gone to his bowl when he is eating and can put her hands in there and he will lick her fingers and move to eating in a differnt corner.  The cockerpoo would snarl if you went near his bowl when eating!  So for all the hype on mixing gets better temperment I say Bull#$&!
Recently, my family has met 2 owners of SO CALLED mastiffs.  1 claims it is a RARE long haired mastiff and tells everyone this and comes from a breeder of OEM mastiffs..  It is a mix of some sort with mastiff.  The other purchased what looks like an AM but was sold to her as a MASTIFF... very misleading representation.  She asked us about the size of her girl not seeming to be up to par for a mastiff. 
This is what I see the problem in the AM breeding, selling dogs for sake of selling and leading someone to believe they purchased something they didnt.  an AM to an OEM is the same as saying a cockapoo is the same as a standard poodle.  IT IS NOT! 
As far as the comment on ads for OEMs from back yard breeders, they will never go away, just as you can get a lemon car from a side street dealer  instead of going to the large chain that will charge you an arm & leg!  
Ya get what YA pay for!!  DUH 
BTY  - I hope I am not offensive - just strong opinion on the am thing.

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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #137 
Quote:
1 claims it is a RARE long haired mastiff and tells everyone this and comes from a breeder of OEM mastiffs..  It is a mix of some sort with mastiff. 


I just wanted to note that there are long coated Mastiffs "fluffies".

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pilgrimspal

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Reply with quote  #138 
Hi,
I know there are fluffs but this dog looks like a irsh setter mastiff! muzzle is long and narrow and no mask.

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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #139 

I just wanted to make sure it wasn't just the coat that led you to believe it wasn't a Mastiff!!


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Reply with quote  #140 
Michelle, you are.  Just your mere presence here, to me, is for one purpose.  Talk up your marketing ploy mix and talk down to us and mastiffs.
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pilgrimspal

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Reply with quote  #141 
Hi Maria,

The coat was extremely long like you would see on a setter and the head was all wrong for mastiff.  I have seen only a few shots of fluffs all of which seem to me keep a mastiff quality except for the coat length.  Steve o posted one of before and after shaving... not to get off topic but is there good shots of fluffs out there would be interested to see.. anyway - I am pretty confident that the " rare" dog they say they have is not OEM, but they love it just the same so who am I to say otherwise! We Left well enough alone and continued our walk!!  BTW point of interest - it snarled at our boy and we had him submissively lay down to greet her.  

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Cammie

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Reply with quote  #142 
Anatolians can be long haired or have a short coat...

008bozkaba.jpg (34886 bytes)

k003kangal.jpg (414554 bytes)

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FluffyMastiff

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Reply with quote  #143 

Also wanted to note that some of the american mastiffs (of the Flying W variety)can also have long coats, or fluffies, or whatever you want to call them.  I remember seeing one posted on Fredrika's (I think it was her) site.

For pilgrimspal, here's a couple shots of a before & after clip of my fluffy girl's head...

Raven before (and a couple of years ago)


and after (taken a couple of weeks ago)...


Here's one of my fluffy boy that shows off his tail really well




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Highlander

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Reply with quote  #144 

What a beautiful dog.


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pilgrimspal

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Reply with quote  #145 

Ok, that looks mastiff still to me.  This was definetely some cross breed then.  the fur was very long - shaggy like and head more anotolian...


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Reply with quote  #146 

Betty -you have a mutt, acceptance is the first step in wellness--I am glad you love your mutts --most people go to a pound or get them free from friends, so good luck on your mutts all dogs should be loved.

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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #147 
Deborah, that post is so "you". 

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Reply with quote  #148 
Linda...
 
I'm wondering why AM people are being allowed to post on this board and continually bash the Mastiff breed.  There is no more education going on here just a platform for AM people to come bash our dogs, breeders and rescues.  

Where do you see that I'm "bashing" the EM?  Firstly, WHY would I do that?  I have TWO EMs and I love the breed, obviously.  Secondly, if I WERE going to "bash" the EM, don't you think I would identify the breeder who wouldn't take his altered boy back with blown-out knees (or help with expenses for surgery), but did take his UNaltered boy back with bad hips????  I'm just posting my opinions and my experiences in response to the posts on this thread and in reply to the gross misinformation that is perpetuated on this forum.

Maria...

 
"AM" people have an issue with them?

No, we don't have an issue with them or any other breed.  I was (and still am) curious as to why the EM community has a problem with Flying W Farms' use of the name "American Mastiff," but you, for some reason, don't have a problem with the Panja's use of the name "American Mastiff."  

Your sarcasm and hostile tone regarding the AKC is not welcome. Would you like us to go into a diatribe of your "kennel club" - the Continental Kennel Club - is just about the biggest joke there is - so please don't cast stones.

No sarcasm or tone used.  I used the words "all-mighty" because I feel that the AKC isn't all that it's cracked up to be, like some people think it is.  In my opinion, the AKC is responsible for ruining many, many breeds.  Please, feel free to continue bashing the Continental Kennel Club.  It's no skin off my nose.  The ONLY reason the CKC is used is for record keeping, nothing more. 

I'm not playing the game of can you tell the difference - b/c in comparison to the Mastiff standard neither of the dogs you posted are good representatives of the Mastiff breed - and since there is no decent "AM" standard or key factors that set the the "AM" apart I really have nothing to compare it to anyway.

Would you rather I post a picture of my American Mastiff next to one of the English Mastiffs from this site or an EM breeder's website to show the similarities?  As I mentioned before, I feel that the AM has much more of a standard than the EM.  Just look at all the pictures of your fellow member's EMs on this site and their web pages.  There are MANY different looks,  .....and one type looks just like the American Mastiff. 
 
Pallone.....
 
Betty -you have a mutt, acceptance is the first step in wellness--I am glad you love your mutts --most people go to a pound or get them free from friends, so good luck on your mutts all dogs should be loved.
 
The ONLY difference between YOUR "mutt" and MY "mutt" is about 25 years.  Don't forget that the English Mastiff (just like EVERY other dog) is a MIX.  There is no "pure" anything when it comes to dogs.  EVERY breed was created by man to serve whatever purpose he so wanted at that time.  Let's not forget that the EM was crossed with bloodhounds, St. Bernard's, Great Danes, etc., etc., to save it from extinction not THAT long ago.  What's the difference if the "mix" was 25+ years ago versus 50 years ago?  At what point in time do you think it's acceptable to call it a "breed"  ....and "pure" at that?"   Is it 30 years after the last mix?  Forty-five?  
 
Michelle
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Reply with quote  #149 

All dogs are Bastards from Wolves the difference is mine are considered Full Blooded Registrable with any Club for registrable Dogs--You have a MUTT--Get over it, I do not deny your love for it and the next time I see 2 dogs on the road screwing I can get you another one to love.

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pilgrimspal

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Reply with quote  #150 

          


Deb - You sure never beat around the bush - you tell it like it is, I like that!

P.S - I am surprised though you didnt have a good clip art to go along with your ending statement!!!!


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