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Reply with quote  #51 
Regarding testing....why not test, just to strengthen your argument that AMs are healthier and an improvement over the parent breeds? 

Given that HD/ED are not likely caused by a single allele but are influenced by multiple genes and environmental factors, isn't it reasonable to expect that OCCASIONALLY you might have a dog with dysplasia, and that it would be prudent to exclude that dog from your breeding program?

I understand that there is some controversy regarding OFA and HD/ED, and that a excellent or good OFA score doesn't guarantee that descendants will never have dysplasia, but certainly some information is better than none.  If you're skeptical about OFA, then why not PennHip? 

Given that PRA is a dominant trait, I can accept that if you've never seen it, then its probably not present in your stock.  But what about other eye disorders?  My child doesn't have any history of vision problems, but I still make her get an eye exam every few years.  Why not CERF all your breeding dogs - its safe, non-invasive and not terribly expensive (about $25 at clinics offered at dog shows) 

Why not do cardiac testing?  Again, its inexpensive and safe (a cardiac specialist listens to your dog's heart with a stethoscope, and if there's anything irregular, follows it up with doppler)

Thyroid testing - I'm not a breeder, but given that thyroid problems are common in most breeds, and easy to detect, why not have your vet draw some blood and send it off?

What about cysteinuria?  Again, cheap to do, and all it requires is a urine sample.

What about brucellosis?  Do you screen for this? (Dogs and bitches both can be asymptomatic carriers, and once brucellosis is established in a breeding colony, there's no getting rid of it)

I have no plans to breed my dog, but he had his first CERF exam at 3 months, and will have them regularly throughout his life.  He's had cardiac and cysteinuria testing, and will have his hips, elbows, and thyroid screened after his second birthday. 

His DNA has been submitted to the mastiff DNA bank and I've sent cheek swabs to the osteosarcoma research project, because I believe that testing and research are essential to improving the health of all dogs, not just mastiffs

Why do I bother with all this if I'm not likely to breed him? Because its reassuring to me to know that he's healthy, and if there is any hint of potential medical problems, I can take steps to minimize them.

More importantly, it helps his breeder know that she is producing the healthiest puppies that she can!  Its a small way that I can thank her for all the testing and thought and effort that she has invested in her breeding program!




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Cammie

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Reply with quote  #52 
Very interesting post from the fluffy mastiff site...

http://www.fluffymastiff.com/lovedogs.html

In the case of the 'American Mastiff' (or AM for short) the breeder who claimed that she trademarked this name with the CKC for her mix of dogs did not even know what breeds were in her foundation stock - this was by her own admission.  This woman e-mailed me and stated that she knew other breeders were using the AM name for their own dogs but that it would take too much time and money for her to stop them - and she had no intention of doing this.  This person has absolutely no desire to protect her 'breed' of dog.  THIS IS NOT AN EXAMPLE OF A RESPONSIBLE BREEDER!!!
 
from the same post and explains why the two dogs posted look nothing alike
 
In doing a little research I found five breeders of the 'American Mastiff'.  Since the only recognizable name here is the Mastiff that is the dog that everyone is going to associate this with.  Good.  Now you have a picture in your mind.  It may surprise you to know that of these five dogs, only two faintly resemble the real Mastiff.  The reason for this is simple.  THE SAME BREEDS OF DOGS WERE NOT USED!  At least five different breeds of dogs were used - bull & terrier breeds (several kinds), Great Danes, Anatolian Shepherd, Neapolitan Mastiff, and Cane Corso's.  If you stand these dogs side by side they will not look anything alike - although they all have the name 'American Mastiff'.  Confusing, isn't it?


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Reply with quote  #53 
No matter what the excuses (the shovel must be overloaded by now), you cannot convince Mastiff breeders and knowledgable people about the purpose of the AM... It has no purpose!!!  It is just pulling down our breed... compare that to second-hand smoke.

It is about time that people start to stand up for our breed. 

The Mastiff IS the name of our breed. 

Bes
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inohio

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Reply with quote  #54 

To Grimes/Kevin Ware,
If you are ever in SW Ohio, I invite you to my home and meet my 3yr old American Mastiff and my 5month old English Mastiff. Please come and see for yourself. (I would also invite you, Betty, but I believe you are in TX?)

Here's what I don't get, granted it took me quite awhile to get there...Can anyone just stand back and look at the facts? Flying W has a HUGE farm LOADED w/dogs and horses, creating "new breeds" and charging big bucks. How could they be spread so thin, with all the new breeds they have developed and still have the best interest of the animals and people purchasing them, at heart?  There must be hundreds of thousands at least rolling into that farm in the course of a year. Are you really willing to say it's not about the almighty dollar?

I wore those rose-colored glasses myself. I got defensive over my AM puppy. I didn't like being wrong, who does? But I am finding more and more people whose AM is displaying Anatolian traits, just like mine. This is just plain common sense. You cannot suppress the bad traits, and close your eyes and wish for the good ones. And touting that the breed is 7/8 mastiff, then according to that, you would still get 7/8 of the health issues, wouldn't you?


You may be providing joy for some or most families, but you must be open and honest that the Anatolian traits WILL come through, and that truth should be clearly expressed to prospective buyers. I did the AM gamble and I lost, like others, and please recognize us, we are real families that bought into the sweetness, no drool (there is just as much drool from my AM as my EM) advertising thing, and for us it was not true.

I am sorry if my descriptions or post sounds "green", I am still learning the proper lingo. I have been on this board for some time now and have learned more truth here than anywhere else, and for that I am grateful.

Sincerely,
Kim Schroer

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Reply with quote  #55 
I would like to know when these breeders who claim to be reputable, plan to start an official rescue for these mutts ? If they care so much about all the pups they pump out why won't they take them back when the owners can no longer keep them ?

I have had a few AM's dropped on my doorstep that Flying W wouldnt take back even though they were her breeding. When I called her she hung up on me.

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Reply with quote  #56 
To PRN65 -

Remember please that I speak only for myself and not for the AMBC.

I have stated that  I do not do OFA for dysplasia. I do not say that I do not have my dogs thoroughly examined and tested. I just do not believe in the "Certification" process so that  can claim my dogs are "Certified". I spent a long time finding a network of Vets (including Robin Smith who lived near me and treated my dogs several times) and Veterinary resources (my Repro specialist is a professor at Virginia Tech. Each one of my breeding dogs is examined and tested thoroughly before they are bred for most of what you have mentioned and others that you have not. I trust my Vets, they know my dogs, they know me. They come to my house on average 3 times for every litter and see my dogs (all of them) at least twice a year problems or not. I give every buyer my Vets name and document any issues that the Vet may have with the puppy if any. I have always be lived in full disclosure to my buyers. 

Now, I have read all of your posts and I am sorry you had a bad experience with the breed. I could regale you with stories about bad EM's and therefore condemn the entire breed and all of the breeders. I could do the same for Labs (Bench vs Field), the poor over bred and under protected Rottweiler, the  English Bulldog that would die out in a single generation if not for the C-Section.  There is nothing inherently wrong with the EM. It has it's own history of tragedy and subterfuge and shady dealings in the past. (Yes I do know the history since I am an analyst and researcher as a large part of my profession)
The point is that the AM is an evolving breed, we are still in the infancy of the breed and we are not a "mature" breed. There have been many misunderstandings and flights of fancy that went on in the past. The AM is not being created to supplant the EM to to find it's own niche. its own unique place. AS I stated in my previous post some of that fumbling around in the early years is probably the root of many of the issues of today. It made it seem as if the AM was "new and improved" EM. This may have been the thought back then but in my mind and the minds of some others we have specific goals to attain in the continued breeding of these dogs. Now the Mastiff breeders can continue a campaign of aspersion and denigration and this debate will continue to be one of vitriol and ill-will or y'all could point the way. Let us learn from your mistakes without trying to force us into your paradigm. We are trying to create a new paradigm for breeding that avoids as many of the pitfalls inherent in the current system as possible. We don't want to be AKC, I am sorry if that offends you, I have been a AKC breeder as have many others of my fellows and we disagree with many policies and practices of that organization. Does that make AKC breeders bad or stupid NO!. There are an extraordinary number of excellent breeders but that is not  because of the AKC. They would be excellent at whatever they bred.
Why do I not fight to change the AKC. Because I would rather create something new rather than fight an entrenched bureaucracy.

OK to much information for now. 

BTW- as a side not to another poster I have had 5 breeding females in the past 7 years. On average they are bred once a year between ages 30 month and 7 years. With no more than 5 litters per bitch. My average litter size is 8 but I have has one litter of 15 (all lived) one of 14 (all lived) and 2 of 12 in which all carried to term but we lost a couple at birth. I have indeed bred one of my dogs "back to back" this was at the suggestion of the aforementioned Repro specialist to regularize some asynchrony in her hormone cycle (which it did)


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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #57 
Grimes -

Don't you feel that as a breeder of these dogs you should know their history, care about their history, fully understand BOTH breeds involved?
Don't you think if claims are made they should be substantiated or removed? Why is their any comparison of the "AM" and the Mastiff?
Do you know of any other breed that compare themselves to another within their own standard?
If your community is so intent on developing this breed, why isn't information readily available regarding all claims made (extensive health testing of foundation dogs, longer life, 7/8 Mastiff)?

Quote:
Each one of my breeding dogs is examined and tested thoroughly before they are bred for most of what you have mentioned and others that you have not.


If that is the case wouldn't you would have vet records and x-rays that you could share with us?
Do all of the "AM" breeders do this?
How do your vets to diagnose the condition of a dog's hips without x-rays?

I've been told you recently resigned from the "AM" council? If you don't mind me asking, why?

Quote:
n average they are bred once a year between ages 30 month and 7 years. With no more than 5 litters per bitch.


OMG is all I can say to this statement. I can't imagine breeding a bitch 5 times - in my opinion, that's cruel.

Do you do AI's, surgical or trans insemination? Do you allow these girls to whelp naturally?








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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #58 
I have to say it's very sad that even a "breeder" of the "AM" is not able to substantiate any claims made by the "AM" council and has no information regarding the foundation of their dogs.

The "AM" has been shown to have no form or function. The breeders do not hold themselves to a physical standard (The vast physical difference in the 2 "AMs" posted above - while I am happy the are loved dearly - clearly demonstrates the lack of a true physical standard. These sorts of things should be very controlled with such a small gene pool and selective breeding) - nor are they able to describe the "purpose" of creating this mix.

What is your mix really supposed to look like? If the response is "just like a Mastiff" you've only demonstrated the lack of purpose in creating this mix.

You don't see the Mastiff community speaking out against the Bullmastiff or the Neo (who is a newly recognized breed). Don't you wonder why that is?

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Reply with quote  #59 
No matter what stage of development this is in... "infancy stage"...  how could this be if someone has been breeding this mix for 11 years.  We're looking at least 3 generations here.  Do they breed true?  Are the litters consistent in the look?  What SHOULD the AM look like?  Is there a picture which illustrates the AM Standard?  AND, THE BIGGEST QUESTION OF THEM ALL.....  WHY CALL IT AN AMERICAN MASTIFF???  To me that is intentional so that they may grasp unsuspecting buyers thinking that these Mastiffs were born in America as opposed to having foreign lines (which includes Canada). 

When you look at the other Molosser Breeds, their names stand on their own.  The Neo, Dogue, Cane Corso, Boerboel, Tosa, Bull, Fila, Tibetan, Spanish...  These are stand-alone breeds and EACH was bred for a specific purpose...coloring, hooded eyes, type of gait, etc.  There was a purpose.

Again... What is the purpose for this AM?  Where is your Standard?  What is your goal?  WHERE IS YOUR RESCUE???  Why is it that Eileen, who contacted the AM's breeder, ignored?  She didn't have to do a damn thing... but she did.  She contacted the breeder...so that they could hang up on her.  There is your support for the MUTT you have created.  It is second-hand smoke! 

And to Barb... like I said... the Mastiff World is a small world Barb.  We band together and you notice how quickly many came forward with the AM rscue issues.

Claiming to know all the health issues without health testing is a lie.  I don't depend on my dogs' health testing results to make a breeding decision BUT, I know what is there and I KNOW what is behind the lines I breed.  I know what I am dealing with.... Does the AM breeder know? 

I do believe that each breed that is being cross-bred with the Mastiff be contacted and a notation should be placed on the Breeds' National Club's homepage... AND have it linked to the other affected Breeds... Perhaps this is one way that we can make a change and protect the Mastiff as well as the other Molosser breeds. 

Bes
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redheads

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Reply with quote  #60 
Im reposting my question,hoping for an answer??


Unfortunately,the Anatolian/American Mastiffs found by rescue usually have no microchip,nor can they "tell" us which "farm" they are from.I wish they could,because we can not take mixes in .Therefore,their lives are usually ended.So sad.

Could you please provide a contact name,phone #,email address for American/Anatolian Mastiff rescue? Do they have contacts in each state?We can not foster them,do you have boarding available until transport can be arranged?Im giving you and the dogs' an opportunity here.Please step up.

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Reply with quote  #61 
I am sure there are a number of Rescue volunteers on this board who are more than willing to chime in.

Do you have Mastiffs Barb?

BTW, I need to substantiate nothing Barb.  The Mastiff world is quite small. 



First off, I am very sorry for PRN's difficulties with the AM they owned. It is heartbreaking, to say the least and I will never try to belittle their experience. I do have to say, though, I have known people with various AKC registered dogs (both small and large) who have had to give them up for aggression problems. This is the exception, rather than the rule.  That said...
 
Yes, Gwenstone, I have 2 gorgeous AMs, 1  2 yr old apricot brindle female, 1 3+yr old fawn male (both altered)who are admired EVERYwhere I take them.  They are noble, calm, obedient yet alert. Intelligent eyes and eagerness to please are also a hallmark.  My breeder keeps contact with us and, from the very first took much time insuring a great match of dog with owner. I proudly tell people who stop to ask to pet my dogs that they are American Mastiffs. I am not a young person, and have been responsible for the well being of a GSD, Doberman and Rottie.  They were all well behaved, loyal dogs who were welcomed in my various circles and travels.  These AMs, though,  have spoiled me for all other dogs. If I am lucky enough I will never own a different breed again in my life.
 
I know of a few people (3 out of 3) with EMs who cannot take them in public or around other dogs-even after consulting behaviorists and having medical testing done. 
 
As far as the Mastiff world being quite small-please- I am trying not to make this sound hostile, just a suggestion-maybe you should get out more often.  Maybe YOUR mastiff world is quite small (that keeps it "safe" for you) but I see mastiff breeders, ads, dogs everywhere. 
 
As far as the $$$ factor that repeatedly came up in earlier posts--I assume you give your dogs away for free????
 
I have to go now and get out in the real world with my best dogs. I am working on getting them certified as therapy dogs.  BTW  my 3+ yr old has not taken the head off of my 85 yr old neighbor who lives down the road, YET.  Maybe he's contemplating  it while he sits and lets her love on him. 
 
I hope you have a wonderful day and, if you perceive AMs as your only problem--you truly are blessed.  Your dogs are beautiful--may you always be the person they perceive you to be!

 

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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #62 
Barb,

Not to sound rude, but, your answer to Bes' question of whether you have Mastiffs is actually NO - you have "AMs".

That being said -
Why is nobody - breeder or owner able to answer ANY questions regarding their "AMs". The only thing they are able to their pets (some good, some bad). If that's the case - what makes them different than any other dog you can get at the shelter?

Quote:
As far as the Mastiff world being quite small-please- I am trying not to make this sound hostile, just a suggestion-maybe you should get out more often.  Maybe YOUR mastiff world is quite small (that keeps it "safe" for you) but I see mastiff breeders, ads, dogs everywhere.  
 


Mastiff breeders who are truly active in the betterment of the breed pretty much know or, at least, know of eachother - the ads and breeders you speak of are most likely BYB's and puppymills.

Quote:
As far as the $$$ factor that repeatedly came up in earlier posts--I assume you give your dogs away for free????


This was my response to the the $$$ concern:
Quote:

Since I'm in the red from the litter I had the beginning of this year - and I know many other breeders that face the same wall because of the money we spend on health testing, showing and caring for our dogs - I don't know what you mean by a financial stake. Perhaps you are referring to BYB's - leaving that statement a moot point here on this forum.

 


Why doesn't your council respond with the facts? Why aren't the owners/breeders privy to the facts?

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OsoBodacious

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Reply with quote  #63 
Quote:

These forums have approximately 500 owners and want to be owners registered. And unlike forums whose primary posters and participants are breeders who have a financial stake in the their breed the owners are the ones that will tell the absolute truth


I am a Mastiff owner - not a breeder.  I belong to several forums.  I would have to say that the "primary posters and participants" on ALL of the forums I read/post on are NOT breeders, but owners.  Why is that?

Because we as Mastiff owners take breeding very SERIOUSLY.  We do not get into breeding without a lot of questions and education, as well as mentoring, and assistance from established breeders.

As a Mastiff owner, I feel that not all Mastiffs are breeding quality (CH or not CH) and I won't just "throw 2 dogs together to have puppies" simply because I have intact males and females that are CH'd.

I have found that most reputable, established breeders (not talking BYB's here) will tell the absolute truth about their dogs because they DO have a stake in the future of the breed and to lie would be to endanger that stake.

Quote:
why is it that so many EM breeders are so vocal against the AM. Is there something perhaps less altruistic and more monetary at play. Do we threaten you? How can an "inferior mutt" threaten an established AKC breed. IS it that you think that buyers are so stupid as to be taken in by a bunch of con artist with nothing but graft and the fast buck in mind?


Our vocalness against the AM (and any other so-called independent / designer breed) is NOT monetary.  We are NOT threatened by you per se, but yes, your "inferior mutt" poses a very big threat to our established AKC breed.

The threat is the fact that you use our Mastiff name in your mutts name, you tout your similarities to our Mastiff, you spout your claims (ALL unsubstantiated I might add) that your dogs are immenently better than our Mastiff.  The threat is that when your "inferior mutt" turns on its owners, bites a neighborhood child, or shows its unstable temperament - the name that is remembered is "Mastiff", not Anatolian, not American - but Mastiff.

As a Mastiff owner, I work very hard to help educate the public about the traits, and behaviors of the Mastiff.  Being a giant breed in and of itself causes fear, and wariness in many.  I go out of my way to try to dispell the myth that big equates to mean.

What is takes me a very long time to do, your "inferior mutt" can undo in a matter of seconds - in the time it takes to bite one person.  THIS is the ONLY threat your "inferior mutt" poses to my established AKC breed.

Quote:
Do we threaten you?


Yes, but only because you and your "inferior mutts" and your lies about their temperament, will ultimately be the reason for breed specific legislation and/or bans against my Mastiff.

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Reply with quote  #64 
GOOD GRIEF!  I go to WSU to get Micah's hips/elbows xrayed for OFA and all h#ll breaks loose!  Yes, health testing.  He is now 2 yr old and we're able to finish up on all the safeguards that MCOA and the veterinary community has developed to protect our breed.  I intend to use any means I can and fully disclose the results to the Mastiff community that I am a part of so that not only I, but others, can see what certain breedings and lines produced.

Micah has already proven himself in the show ring --both in the US and Canada-- as has his dam who is now retired and spayed after TWO litters AND an active Therapy Dog so until the "AM breeders" start to put their $$ where their mouth is in taking an active part of "proving" their breed both in health and accountability since you cannot show your mixed breed, I think your posts are moot.



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Reply with quote  #65 
"I asked the man where he got his dog and he gave me Fredericka’s (Flying W) website and the rest is history."

Please Betty if you can refrain from mentioning that person's name. I just had my breakfast.
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Reply with quote  #66 
Not to sound rude, but, your answer to Bes' question of whether you have Mastiffs is actually NO - you have "AMs".

Neopolitan Mastiff, French Mastiff, English Mastiff, Spanish Mastiff, Tibetan Mastiff, etc.  They are all Mastiffs.  Are all these breeders ignorant of their own breeds? (That was rhetorical, BTW)

That being said -
Why is nobody - breeder or owner able to answer ANY questions regarding their "AMs". The only thing they are able to their pets (some good, some bad). If that's the case - what makes them different than any other dog you can get at the shelter?


I have these dogs because I wanted a predictable look, size and temperament.  I have EXACTLY the dogs I was hoping for. They are both EXACTLY what was advertised. 
Really--this seems to go around and around. I am just a happy owner with great dogs that are admired. Just have to put my .02 cents in--y'know "representin' "--AMS in the HOWSE!!!  :-)  Woof Woof! 
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clydeman

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Reply with quote  #67 
I went over to the Flying W's web site and they stated they no longer sell EM and are now focusing on AM's.  They sell for $1500 per dog.  This lady must have one heck of a sales ability.

They were careful to put a lot of pictures of their dogs up with children to prove they are not aggressive.  Most of the mastiff community doesn't do that becasue it's a given.  Mastiff's naturally protect children.

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Reply with quote  #68 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie
"I asked the man where he got his dog and he gave me Fredericka’s (Flying W) website and the rest is history."

Please Betty if you can refrain from mentioning that person's name. I just had my breakfast.


What's that supposed to mean?
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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #69 
Quote:
Neopolitan Mastiff, French Mastiff, English Mastiff, Spanish Mastiff, Tibetan Mastiff, etc.  They are all Mastiffs.  Are all these breeders ignorant of their own breeds? (That was rhetorical, BTW) 


A neo owner would said they own a neo...the french would have said dogue. These breed owners are very clear when they discuss what type of dog they have. The Mastiff (capital - proper name) is a breed unto itself.
 
Quote:
  have these dogs because I wanted a predictable look, size and temperament. 


How is that (predictable look and size) possible when an "AM" breeder himself has come here and stated he does not breed for the physical appearance? Betty's  dogs look completely different - there is certainly nothing predictable about their appearance.

Can you tell us what the "AMs" intended function was/is?

Can any owner / breeder / council member answer any of the questions posted throughout this thread?

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Reply with quote  #70 
Quote:
Originally Posted by clydeman
I went over to the Flying W's web site and they stated they no longer sell EM and are now focusing on AM's. They sell for $1500 per dog. This lady must have one heck of a sales ability.


Not at all, there is a waiting list; I was on it for 9 months before I got my first puppy.

I was so pleased with the first dog I got back on the list for a second dog. After being on the list for 11 months waiting for my second dog (I wanted a brindle female) when the puppies were born all the brindles in the litter were male. So back on the list I went, then Frederica called me and told me that one of the other breeders had a brindle female who's people had canceled at the last minute and she would call them and ask them to hold this puppy for me if I wanted it. I said yes that I wanted it.

I am just as pleased with the second dog as I am the first, in my opinion these dogs are worth twice what I paid for them.
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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #71 
Betty -

I'm glad you didn't leave!

Quote:
  
I'm sure I can get all that information for you if you really want it...


Any luck getting the information?

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Reply with quote  #72 
Actually mariaruoto I didn't look for it since grimes answered all those questions for you already.
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Reply with quote  #73 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariaruoto
Can you tell us what the "AMs" intended function was/is?


They are intended to be a companion/watch dog; at least that is what I wanted mine for.
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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #74 
I didn't see any answers in what he wrote. He had no information regarding the foundation dogs or the "extensive" health testing that is claimed to have been done on said dogs. No DNA/genetic testing results to provide proof of the 7/8 1/8 claim. Nor did he explain the function of the "AM".

Although, he did basically confirm that the claims of a longer lifespan are unfounded.


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"I hope that someday they can understand that it's not 'just a dog', but the thing that gives me humanity and keeps me from being 'just a (man or) woman'."
~Biby '06

Maria S. Ruoto
Dunraven Mastiffs
http://www.dunravenmastiffs.com
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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #75 
Quote:
They are intended to be a companion/watch dog; at least that is what I wanted mine for.


No disrepect - but what you wanted a dog for is not the establishing function for the "breed".

There are a multitude of purebred companion/watch dogs available, as well as rescue at the shelter - no need for a "new" breed.

__________________
"I hope that someday they can understand that it's not 'just a dog', but the thing that gives me humanity and keeps me from being 'just a (man or) woman'."
~Biby '06

Maria S. Ruoto
Dunraven Mastiffs
http://www.dunravenmastiffs.com
Mastiffs4U Store
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