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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #101 

The dog in my avatar is not one of mine!


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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #102 

As a new member of this list, I am very happy to have found such an educated and diverse group of Mastiff lovers. I have been reading everything I could find about AM's and now I'm looking at OEM's.

 

Let me start by saying that I am not new to the purebred dog world, and I am definitely not an advocate of purposely crossing breeds to come up with a designer dog. My mother was a breeder of magnificent collies, and as a child I travelled the country in an RV going to dog show after dog show. I think she finished somewhere around 31 of her dogs before retiring. I myself am not a dog breeder, but admittedly I'm a "purist" when it comes to dogs. I want to know what I'm getting when I buy a dog. I have a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, great temperamant, beautiful dog. I also have a long-coat chihuahua, not so great temperament with others, she shakes and yaps at strangers, but she is totally devoted to me and a permanent fixture on my lap. LOL. That's what I wanted when I bought her.

 

Now I want a large, intelligent, protective but not aggressive dog. I don't want anything too hairy (GSD's) or too drooly (OEM's?). This dog would have to be completely reliable with my 6 yr. old granddaughter, but still be a deterrent if any bad guy came around the house. I spend a lot of time home alone as my husband travels extensively for work, and for some reason my intuition tells me that I need a large dog. Maybe it's the recent burgularies in an adjoining neighborhood.

 

So what do I get? Anyone have a suggestion? The OEM seems perfect except for the drool factor. Sorry for the long post, but I welcome more education and comments from the Mastiff world.  Thanks!

Ronda

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #103 

If they "drool", they "rule"!

 

Buy the real thing!

 

Your English mastiff might drool a bit, but you're getting a dependable dog.

 

If you just can't tolerate the drool factor, then a mastiff should not be your choice!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #104 
Hi Ronda,
Some of my mastiffs drool more than the others, but you can't tell if they're a real drooler until they're older. Also, they usually drool when they eat and drink, but they don't (not mine anyway), just sit and endlessly drool. If you're concerned with temperament, I would have to highly recommend an EM. If you have more questions, please post them so we can get them answered for you.


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Reply with quote  #105 

Ronda,

 

The drool is not such an issue as you would think. Their jowls will drip after drinking or eating, but if you keep a towel handy that problem is solved. Sometimes if some really great smelling food is right there they will drool. That's easily solved, put them in another room, outside, or in their crate. I don't think you can beat a well-bred mastiff for their temperament. They are loving, loyal and can be great family dogs. They are "guardians" rather than an "attack" dog. Their mere size and loud bark is a great deterrant to anyone with bad intentions. Many mastiffs can sense something "off" about someone and will put themselves between you and the one they are not sure of. Of course, they are all individuals and vary in their reactions. I live alone except for my animals and am very comfortable with my 2 big babies-who would lick most people-except those they are not sure of.

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Reply with quote  #106 
I totally disagree w/ Homebody and would never tell a perspective Mastiff owner that the drool is not much of an issue.  A typey Mastiff w/ a large head and jowls will drool A LOT, and not just after drinking or seeing something yummy to eat.  The majority of my Mastiffs have drooled like this.  If you are at all a clean freak, the Mastiff is NOT FOR YOU.
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Gina

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Reply with quote  #107 

I think what homebody is trying to say is that drool IS part of the breed, but because he loves his Mastiffs so very much it is not such a big deal..and I also agree w/Kristen..one of the first things people want to know "do they drool"..a resounding YES...I like to tell folks all the negatives, to make sure they know what they are getting..I never say "oh you must have one"..well you know me..I'm not against breeding, but from where I am sitting, frankly these lists, boards, threads, kennels, are scary...

Ronda, everyone seems to have jumped on the Mastiff bandwagon..when I started back in l988, my God, you could not even locate a breeder..now everyone has a "litter on the ground", the biggest, best, ..pictures taken at 2 days old..yikes..it is much pride, and some are much self promotion..just because 2 Mastiffs happen upon each other with lust in their hawless eyes..haha..does NOT a breeding program make..

 

Their are few folks that I would even consider as reputable anymore..always remember the BYBs had to start somewhere..and again, from some of these pictures some of these Mastiffs are "pet"..meaning..fine boned, lack of pigment, long coats..well you know..I am NOT anti breeding..but we have a serious, serious exploitation issue going on..building state of the art facilities to house adult, pups, breeding programs..all looks lovely..

 

BUT..Mastiffs are house dogs..plain and simple (oh gee here I go again)..they make lousy "kennel" dogs..they love their humans, want to be near you, with you..to be at their most wonderful best, they crave human companionship...

After you start or during your search you will see the good, the bad and the ugly..I am all for breeding, but more for protection...the welfare of our breed should be paramount ..not stats, financial gain, ...

 

I don't make apologies for my opinion, some hate me for it...too bad...take a look at these internet lists (not this one), you will see..it is a double edge sword..so info available, yet so MANY litters available..studs are over used, bitches are for brood..puppies shipped all over with sometimes horrible endings.

 

If someone tells you they have the best, biggest, most winningest, run, don't walk away..look for an honest, ETHICAL breeder..of course I am Pro Parent Club, but I have seen first hand members or NOT destroy this wonderful breed..little by little..it did not happen overnight..

 

I have helped w/breeder referral program since l995, rescue since l989..if you wish to call or want some more info, I am always ready to chat..can ya tell?

 

much love, respect and admiration to my fellow Mastiff lovers..

Gina

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Reply with quote  #108 

Thanks everyone for the opinions! I agree with Gina that we are over breeding dogs everywhere. IMO the only reasons to breed a dog is to improve on the breed, improve on your own champion lines, and to produce a better show prospect. Dogs that are exhibited and WIN are usually the best specimens of the breed and are good candidates for breeding. Of course every puppy bred from champions will not be a show prospect, those puppies can be sold to responsible pet owners. But to breed strictly for the pet market? That's exploitation and greed. Now I know that many disagree strongly, but that's what I was taught and I still subscribe to the notion that pet dogs should

a.)be adopted from a shelter or rescue program, or

b.)be adopted from a breeder who has a litter from show quality dogs who aren't all show quality.

 

If everyone did that it would put the byb's out of business. If you want to be a breeder, exhibit your dogs that have been health screened, and only breed the ones that win consistently. That's improving the breed!

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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #109 
Great posts everyone.  It is so important to be patient with people when they call or write.  I have so many people that initially tell me they're looking for an AM to bring into their family, and after talking to them for a few minutes, they realize that it actually is an EM they're looking for.  There are days I just don't feel like taking the time, but I try to remind myself that this could be one more person that needs a clear explanation.  Thanks again for all the great posts.

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Gina

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Reply with quote  #110 

Pesty me again Ronda..Jann and a few more like her have made these lists available for well..the world to participate, learn, and communicate with each other. No matter how many times I try to get the message out (along with my fellow Mastiff lovers) we seem to fall on deaf ears.

I also think we ARE the problem..too many in "rescue" give the holier than thou impression..in fact it is detrimental to our breed to get preachy, judgmental and "over the top"..although I have not been as active, my heart is and always will be for the welfare and protection of our breed..I know, I know I was TOLD I didn't know about birthin no babies...LOL..cuz I never did, BUT from my wonderful vantage point I was able to concentrate on honing my people skills and put my "gifts" to work in other ways for our breed..

 

Until someone gives us good reason to cross breed, over breed, not health test..yadda yadda, I will never give up trying to get the word out. Joan Hahn was one of my mentors..when I read her books and although written years back, everything still applies..and MORE so..

 

We live in a terrific country, however we are SO free that it gets us in trouble..anything goes..new registeries will condone any breed anytime..and it's the last thing on the political agenda..I'm no bleeding heart, I eat red meat and cannot save the world..but perhaps these topics will gently guide a prospective Mastiff buyer to stay clear of the notorious BYB's or commercial kennels that forgo the true "pedigree" of what our breed is..

 

Good luck finding your new best friend Rhonda..any Mastiff would be lucky to call you MOM..

hugs,

G

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Reply with quote  #111 
Gina, love your post!  So well said.  I know we have talked about this before (rescue), and then some...I also think that rescue folks that deal with the public must have good people skills and be willing to educate w/o judgment.  After all, we were all new once too.  Rhonda, I hope you get your Mastiff baby soon, whether through rescue or a breeder.  They are very special souls and make wonderful family members.  Mine are all laying around the house watching those pesky puppies chew each other's ears, etc. 
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colinthegirl

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Reply with quote  #112 

Very well said Gina. I have to remind myself everytime I hear "Cool dog, where can I get one" that I need to be patient...take a deep breath....and... educate.

 

~Colin


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Reply with quote  #113 

After reading the majority of these messages, I am ALMOST speechless!  EVERY thread consists of bashing the American Mastiff that was developed by Fredericka (not five years ago.... over 25 years ago!)!  Obviously NONE of you have ever researched the breed!   Firstly, the word "mastiff" means "A breed of large dogs noted for strength and courage. There are various strains, differing in form and color, and characteristic of different countries; any bat of the genus Molossus; so called because the face somewhat resembles that of a mastiff."  The term is NOT indicative of the ENGLISH mastiff.

 

Before I got MY American Mastiff (NOT to be confused with the PANJA...which IS an aggressive dog), I researched different large breed dogs.  The English Mastiff was one of my top choices.  I came across Fredericka's site.  After finding that the breed looks like the EM (which, obviously, I love!), lives longer, has many less health problems (i.e. hip dysplasia, elbow problems), drools less (YES, they still drool, but usually after drinking; some drool more, some less), I decided on the AM.   Murphy, my male fawn will be two years old in January.  My Murphy is a Certified Therapy Dog and is extremely smart, loving, and loyal.  He is my absolute pride and joy!!

 

In talking to MANY, MANY,  MANY AM owners,  I have only heard of ONE AM having to be put down because the owner that 1% of the time he had aggressive "tendencies."  ONE dog in 25+ years!   I think the percentage is extremely LOW of all the "problem AMs" so talked about on this site!

 

Goldleaf posted this link:  http://www.americanmastiff.org/FAQ.htm

and made the following comment:  " I found this website and thought some might find it interesting - how much is fact, and how much is fiction?"

 

WHY must you assume ANYTHING listed is fiction?  I can tell you FROM EXPERIENCE, that EVERYTHING listed there IS 100% TRUE!  Should I also assume what's on YOUR website is "fiction?"

 

I find it EXTREMELY ignorant to bash something you OBVIOUSLY have no knowledge of (and obviously have no desire to learn about)! 

 

http://www.flyingwfarms.com/

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanMastiffs/

 

 

Michelle

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SilverKnight

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Reply with quote  #114 
I'm sorry you felt insulted by our conversation. I think the point of the thread is to educate not casterate.

I am confused by something....if Frederika wanted to breed a better mastiff, why didn't she just start with a better mastiff and breed selectively instead of creating a mix? Anatolians have just as many health problems...it would seem to me that's just doubling up on the issues.

This breed is the MASTIFF....that is their name - not ENGLISH mastiff. Not being argumentative...but if you look it up on the AKC website, you won't find it under E. Molosser, from what I understand, is the general term for a giant breed dog.

Happy Holidays!




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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #115 

WHY must you assume ANYTHING listed is fiction? I can tell you FROM EXPERIENCE, that EVERYTHING listed there IS 100% TRUE! Should I also assume what's on YOUR website is "fiction?"


You can assume anything you like. It doesn't matter to me.

I find it EXTREMELY ignorant to bash something you OBVIOUSLY have no knowledge of (and obviously have no desire to learn about)!


The only ingorance going on here is the fact that you are an advocate for mixing an Anatolian with an English Mastiff. You can say whatever you want....if you think you or anyone else can convince me that this is a responsible thing to do, then you have your work cut out for you. I constantly send uneducated people to this page, and will continue to do so. Sorry if I (we) are putting a damper on your AM promotion.



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Reply with quote  #116 

Funny how you can't find an American Mastiff Rescue organization. Maybe because there is no reason to have one. You can't find an AM to rescue because no one is giving them up. Not for aggression reasons, not for health issues.

 

The waiting lists for AMs is huge because they are a great breed. What's an OEM's temperment guarantee? AM's have a lifetime temperment guarantee.

 

With all that's been said regarding AM's being mutts, come on - tell me that every single person on this board (or in the world) isn't a mutt? Are you any less of a person because of it?

 

 

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Nicci

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Reply with quote  #117 

----The waiting lists for AMs is huge because they are a great breed. What's an OEM's temperament guarantee? AM's have a lifetime temperment guarantee.----

 

That has to be one of the most ignorant things I have ever read! OK.. the entire post has to be one of the most ignorant things I have ever read. 

 

Nobody is faulting you for having a mutt.  And that is what an AM is!   Most of us have at least one mutt of our own and love them the same as our mastiffs.  What we are faulting is the mis-information that is available about this mix breed and the promotion campaign that this is a "better healthier mastiff".  When most of us see it as a bastardization of the breed.  This is a mastiff board not an AM board.. don't fault us for defending our chosen breed.             

 


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #118 

It's even funnier that one Am- Mas site (http://www.american-mastiff.com/) has the nerve to use the following slogan..."“WHAT THE LION IS TO THE CAT, THE MASTIFF IS TO THE DOG! THE NOBLEST OF THE FAMILY, HE STANDS ALONE, AND ALL OTHERS SINK BEFORE HIM!!!!! (Britannica 1800)"

 

Now if you do your homework, the Continental Club states that the breed was developed by Fredericka Wagner of Piketon, OH.....I don't believe that she was breeding in 1800!!!

 

This watered down breed cannot be compared to the English mastiff and riding on the back of the true English breed, won't enhance this cross at all!

 

There are over 5000 English mastiffs registered in the USA. How many Am-Ma's are registered?

 

What is the purpose of this "breed"? To reduce drool????

 

A noble goal! Perhaps the Saint should be crossed as well!

 

It was a silly cross, done without reason and now Am-Ma buffs want to validate the debacle!

 

I can't wait for the Am-Ma fluffs!

American Mastiff
 
Height: 28-35 In.
Group: Mastiff
Weight: 140-200+ Lbs.
Coat: Dense, Short And Thick
Color: Fawn, Apricot And Brindle, All With Black Mask.
  
Description: Head: Wide, heavy and rectangular in shape. Eyes: Amber in color. Darker the better. Ears: Rounded and set high on head. Muzzle: Medium size and well proportioned to head. Nose: Black. Bite: Scissor. Neck: Powerful, and slightly arched. Chest: Deep, broad and well-rounded, descending to the level of elbows. Ribs are well-sprung and extend well back. Body: Back is straight, muscular and powerful, with well muscled and slightly arched loins. Legs: Forelegs are strong, straight and set well apart. Hind legs are wide and parallel. Feet: Round and compact, with arched toes and black nails. Tail: Long, reaching the hocks. Movement: Strong and driving, yet very agile. Temperament: Dignity rather than gaiety; quiet, calm, loving and loyal. Protective, but not aggressive.
* This breed was developed by Fredericka Wagner of Piketon, OH.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #119 
Very well said Nicci! 

My two cents - I am a clean freak!!  I grew up with a wonderful German Shepard, currentlly own Labradors, Chihuahuas and now the OEM.  I would not mix my three mastiffs with any other breed, not a shepard (who was the love of my life and the most loyal wonderful dog as I was growing up), not my never hurt a fly labradors - NOTHING!!  They are pure, wonderful and they are so special in heart and soul that if I have to endure some drool and a few less years with them it is worth having ALL OF THEM, EVERY SINGLE PUREBRED NUT AND BOLT!


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Monica
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Reply with quote  #120 

Firstly, nobody is "attacking" "your" breed like you seem to be SO eager to do to the American Mastiff!  Secondly, if you have ANY basic knowledge of "your" breed, you would realize that "your" breed is not "pure" in any sense of the word!  If you go to the below websites (among many others regarding the subject), you might educate yourself on "your" breed.  

 

http://www.mastiffassociation.com/Info/his.htm

 

http://historicalbandoginfo.blogspot.com/2005/12/english-mastiff-just-bandog.html

 

Michelle

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Monica

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Reply with quote  #121 
Michelle - my your feathers are ruffled aren't they.  It is clear you love your breed.  I don't know that tossing yourself and other AM owners into the middle of a OEM owner/breeder field will do anyone any good.  Fortunately and often times unfortunately the internet allows information to be posted, passed on, etc., that some would rather not passed on. 

I'm sure if you want to fight you will find some here that might go a few rounds with you - I am not one. 

In closing - I am proud to own the OEM's that I own for a multitude of reasons and if anyone asks me ever for my opinion between the two breeds I would tell them what my feelings are.  Just beacause there are a lot who don't care for your mixed dogs, it doesn't mean they/I/we are uninformed.  Please don't mistake an informed opinion with an uninformed opinion.  And please - don't take the word "pure" out of the context in which is was meant.

You may just need to chalk this up to disagreement.  You feel the creation of the AM has bettered the "mastiff" and I would venture to bet the vast majority of board members here feel the opposite.  Disagreement... 


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Reply with quote  #122 
I believe the concept in crossing the Mastiff with the Anatolian was to obtain some portion of genetic diversity that some felt was lacking.

IE: Better hips and the tighter lower lip and the longer lifespan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outcrossing

I am not an expert but I do not believe that the American Mastiff is recuringly a cross of one parent Mastiff and one parent Anatolian, rather the cross happened quite a few years ago and the American mastiff is the guided outcome of this 25 years old set of breedings, and as such can allow the 1/8th Anatolian that is claimed in its makeup.
Similarly the Labradoodle is the result of outcrossing with the specific intent of developing specific consistent traits, one of the primary of which for that dog is the hypoallergenic aspect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labradoodle

Now according to any purebred dog association these dogs would not be considered purebred dogs. I believe that the buyers of these newer breeds are not at all concerned with the papers that the dog carries, and rather find the value added from the claimed 'improvements' that the parent breeds have, true or not.

But the question remains, what does make a purebred dog? is it the lineage? the ability to breed true? well American Mastiff breeders and owners, according to all I have read, would claim that the Flying W American Mastiff does breed true..

Lineage? After WWII the Mastiff breed was drastically rebuilt from widely distributed stock, due to being basically obliterated. That means the particular genetic diversity today considered to be the Mastiff is no more than 61 years old.... 61 vrs 25 yrs....
(If anyone knows more about the reconstruction of the Mastiff breed following WWII I would really love to hear about it)
I may well be completely off base with a lot of this as I do not really know much and I am not a breeder, I just want to understand this whole thing.

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Reply with quote  #123 
I am new to your board and I have read through the messages on the AM vs. OEM. First, let me say that I have had AKC german shepherds, and my last pup that just passed away at 11 was a wonderful AKC rottie. I have done my share of research on the AM and OEM. I always research my breeds. I am extremely amazed at the OEM postings.
You seem to act like your breed is so pure and any other breeding will "ruin" its wonderful image, etc. I urge you to go this site that I list below and read it thoroughly--to truly acquaint yourself with the mastiff's beginning and how far its expanded. There is no true OEM. Just as there is no true one breed. I am on a waiting list for an AM from Flying W Farm and although it is not a "pure bred"--if enough research is done--your's really isn't either.
I truly believe it is just a matter of time before the AM is recognized by the AKC--just as the Bull Mastiff was. Please read the following carefully.
Thank you for your time. Teresa
http://www.bulldoginformation.com/Origins_Mastiff_page2.html

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SilverKnight

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Reply with quote  #124 
Since AM's have HD and ED, and they drool just as much as most mastiff seems the crossing was moot. Again, I ask why didn't Frederika just try to breed true to the mastiff and better the breed that way?

What do you need a rescue for? If the AM looks exactly like the Mastiff, Mastiff rescue is called in - and they think they've just rescued a mastiff. Ingenious really.

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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #125 
The comments made by Anatolian/Mastiff cross advocates just goes to show how important it is for mastiff breeders to continue to educate the public.  I know many of you have posted the information from my website onto your own, but for those of you who have not, please take the time to do this.  I have been getting fewer and fewer inquiries regarding "American Mastiffs", which is a very positive sign.

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