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Reply with quote  #51 

I was there. I don't draw conclusions from misinformation. Do you know that all breeders allow all there dogs free reign of there house & property. Lets be realistic. When you breed animals, its somewhat different than having them as pets. You can say its the same, but its not. You & I both know we don't see what all breeders do behind the scenes. How can you possibly know where she got her original Mastiffs from, she's been doing this for over 20 yrs. the grandmother or original female (1st generation) of my dog lived till 16 yrs old. The mother of my dog was older. She's bred her own english mastiffs before that.

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SilverKnight

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Reply with quote  #52 
I wasn't aware that breeding and loving your pet were mutually exclusive. I'm sure that the breeders here wouldn't agree with your thoughts on that. If they didn't love the breed they wouldn't fight so hard to improve them. Through health, temperment and education. They wouldn't join a board like this to share what they've learned...tell stories about their mastiffs and share pictures. I don't know Fredricka, don't really care what she does unless she's doing something unethical...but that's not for me to judge. I think it's sort of odd to join a board specifically for a breed - then expect the members not to believe their breed isn't the "most awesome". You have Engish Mastiff in your pet Daisy, how can you argue that ? Blood will tell.

For the Record, every Mastiff/Anatolin mix owner I've met said that drool-less they aren't. I've also heard of hip or other health issues...so I'm still a little confused as to what the point of the mix is. Can you enlighten?

Welcome BTW.


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #53 

What's the point in any of today's mixes?

 

Cockerdoodlepoos and pitpapillonchows , not to mention greatirishsharpeifoundlands.

 

It's like anyone can become a "founder" of a new breed!

 

All you have to do is call it a "new breed"!

 

The American Mastiff is no different!

 

To say that it was developed to reduce drool, is totally idiotic!

 

Perhaps the next mastiff du jour, will eliminate stools as well! (no pun intended)


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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EXCMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #54 

I agree Steve!

 

Heather


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Nicci

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Reply with quote  #55 

Ok.. trying to get a mental image of the GreatIrishSharpeiFoundland is just mind boggling!! 


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #56 

They like to drink beer, are great swimmers and fold away nicely in suitcases when traveling!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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TamK

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Reply with quote  #57 
This is what happens after the initial popularity surge is over:

Breeder Turns Dogs Over To Humane Society

PORTLAND - Forty dogs are waiting adoption after an overwhelmed breeder decided to surrender the canines before winter weather arrives.

The dogs, which include Goldendoodles, a cross between a Golden Retriever and Poodle, and Labradoodles, a cross between a Labrador Retriever and a Poodle, were turned over to the Oregon Humane Society.

The breeder, from the St. Helens area, said the impending cold, rainy weather and a building with no heat or running water led to the decision to relinquish the canines so they could find permanent homes.

The dogs will receive medical attention from OHS and will be available for adoption on Sunday.

There are 18 puppies, eight adults, four small mixed-breed dogs and one female mother with seven three-day-old puppies.

11/2/2006




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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #58 

There was even a genetically engineered dog. It was part cocker spaniel, part poodle and part rooster!

 

They called it a "cockerdoodledoo", but I don't know why!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #59 

TamK - your post is such a huge reminder to all how precious these lives are and how much they "ALL" depend on us to make the right decisions for them.  That makes me really sad to read, but I am happy that they were not left to die and were taken to a place where they have a chance at a home. 


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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #60 
Steve - you are just so corny!!!  Good ones.

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ebdogge

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Reply with quote  #61 

TamK,

 

that is ridiculous.  she has all those dogs but cant provide shelter for them.  she needs to spend winter in her building with no heat and running water.  what a cow.  sorry that just ticks me off.


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #62 

Jann, at every sunrise he'd bark like crazy!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #63 

I don't know that this will clear up any issues regarding how people are getting their information (or lack thereof) but I can share my family's experience.  About 2 years ago we were looking to get a dog for the sole purpose of being a companion, especially for our toddler.  We researched all the breeds for reliability with children.  I do suffer with allergies so we eliminated certain breeds due to coats, etc.  The English Mastiff and American Mastiff both came up as being excellent with children.  Neither my husband nor I had ever had a mastiff before and we knew very little about standards, showing, etc., and we were just looking for a pet so that didn't really matter at the time.

 

All of the original descriptions for the American Mastiff that we saw NEVER indicated in any way that it was a mixed breed.  The Anatolian Shepherd was NEVER mentioned at all.  The descriptions (at that time) said that they were exactly like the English Mastiff without the drool due to outcrossing early on in the history of the breed.  My definition of "outcrossing" does not necessarily indicate mixing breeds.  Long story short, we decided to go that route.

 

There is a very high demand for pups so we put ourselves on several waiting lists for a puppy.  After 10 months of waiting, we went back to re-evaluate American Mastiffs vs English Mastiffs since the wait was not nearly as long for English Mastiffs and frankly, we were tired of waiting.  The "origin" section of the description now stated that a Mastiff had been crossed with an Anatolian Mastiff or an Anatolian Shepherd.  That had NOT been there 10 months prior (and what exactly is an Anatolian Mastiff anyway?).  A few of Fredricka's approved breeders have also added that to their website and others have not.  We assumed there must have been some lawsuit that made them admit that.

 

Anyway, we were not about to pay top dollar for a mutt.  Please don't misunderstand me, there is nothing wrong with getting a mutt, but if that was what I wanted to do, I would just go down to the local shelter and rescue one, as I have done many times in the past and didn't wait 10+ months to do it either.

 

We ended up feeling very foolish and a bit deceived, but grateful that we found out beforehand.  To be honest, from a newbie's standpoint and a VERY uneducated eye, they did look exactly alike.  We now have a mastiff, have attended many shows, researched breeders, breeding and standards and obviously 2 years later, we know MUCH more now.  At this point, I don't think they look ANYTHING alike but that is only because now I know what to look for.

 

Hopefully, that will give you some perspective from someone that was a TOTAL newbie and didn't have a clue and I believe there are many more people out there in the same situation.  If their AM is a few years old, they may not have even known it was a mutt because the AM breeders were not very forthcoming with that information until just recently.

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Reply with quote  #64 

I am in Ohio and it is TRUE she did purchase most of her mastiffs from an auction - Walter Nancy was suspended from the AKC so he auctioned off all of his mastiffs and she bought the whole lot of them.  I know plenty of people that have euthanized dogs from her because of temperament - and when she was notified of the problems she told them she wasn't surprised.  I've also rescued a few of the dogs from her breeding - one guy told me that if paid her $500 more she would have gave him AKC papers stating that his dog was a full blooded mastiff - that was when she still had registered mastiffs. I am so tired of hearing how great she is when all she is - is a conarist. the Anatolian people are just as upset as us Mastiff people also - they agree that the Anatolian should NOT be mixed with the Mastiff that is it just asking for trouble. I am in awe at how many people pay money for mixed breeds and then I hear that they are registered - I have news for you the Continental Kennel Club is a BOGUS kennel club - just a group people got together and figured out how to rip people off. If you wanted to breed a cat to a dog they would registered it there.

and I also heard that many years ago she was suspended from some horse associations for being unethical - this was told to me by a very good friend who is into horses.

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Gina

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Reply with quote  #65 

Greetings Jake,

I have to join this party, not as a pooper, but a trooper ..please, please try to understand what our concerns and obvious disdain are ..not just from a "breeders" point of view, but for the Mastiff breed's ultimate protection, dignity and validity as the oldest breed. The "Lion of Dogdom"

Now Jake, as corny as all this may sound to you, and I KNOW, just KNOW how much you love your dogs...we all agree with that. Just try to have what I call "peripheal vision", not tunnel vision...to see the whole picture of the why's and how's are beloved Mastiff breed is in serious trouble.

Now, if Flying W really just wanted to "breed" a truly drool proof dog, and that was the only criteria, why would anyone who is a reputable, solid professional, take two very different, distinct breeds just to come up with a non drooler?

Like Steve says..and we have witnessed, Labradoodles, puggles,..it is endless. Years and years ago breeds were bred, distinguished and recognized in various "jobs"...you have herding, toy, sporting, working...you know the big 7?..this reminds me of genetically engineered plans with a purpose of monetary gain and fame with certainly no consideration for the purebred dogs involved..

Any breeder worth their "salt" has a plan in mind. Yes, some breeds were crossed to come to what we see today...but what we see TODAY is an over population in almost every breed, mixes, all the doodles...shelters are over loaded, novices are confused and simply put we do not need any more "designer dogs" the fact is taking two distinct breeds ..the Herding dogs that hail from Turkish ancestory and the English Mastiff have different inherited faults, traits, and if you visit the A.S. site and discuss the "American Mastiff" with them also, you will get the other side to this ..I have, in the name of rescue. You see we not only have a problem with the Mastiff in statistical skyrocketing rankings, we now have to deal with naive' buyers who think they are purchasing a drooless "purebred" Mastiff dog..paying 1,500 for a mix breed, no matter how many times the generational pool is shifted is still a high price considering you can rescue at any local shelter for $50...or adopt a Mastiff for $350.

I am looking at this whole situation from an ethical, rescue (I've been a rescue volunteer since l988) and educational perspective.

We are not going to "police" every person that tries to come up with a big, bigger, biggest Mastiff, or dry, drier, driest, however we in the Mastiff world that care about the preservation, health, temperment and history of our ancient breed will do our best to educate novice people away from mixes.

Since this is a free country and Flyin W is not breaking any laws, nor are they AKC, but Continental Club Registerable, there is nothing else we can do..

Jake, I was instrumental in helping close down a long time "breeder" in NY state. He was breeding Mastiffs w/Irishwolfhounds...the pups he was selling in turn tried the same..it was a horrible mess...literally.

If you come to a Mastiff list like this one, you will find Mastiff people who are long time, recognized, responsible breeders...who's paramount concern is the welfare of our breed..we are trying very hard to educate, inform and be respectful of each others opinions, yet the fact is, most on here, if not all will never condone a mix breed program involving the "Lion of Dogdom"

To quote my friend and mentor Joan Hahn, who gifted the Mastiff world with "Granduer and Good Nature" the Character of the Mastiff...

"No one who has ever loved and learned from a Mastiff can rest easy knowing that this unique breed is today endangered. As with amny of the beautiful innocents of this world, Mastiffs are being victimized and exploited-often by seemingly well-meaning people. Knelle clubs and breed clubs are inadequate in protecting Mastiffs from the practices of inferior breeders and undeserving owners. The original intent of protecting the purity of canine breeds by registering dogs and displaying them in organized shows appears to have been for the most part lost, and the commercial aspects of breeding and selling and showing have done many purebreds great harm.

Last but not least, what happens to the "American Mastiffs" that somehow get a drool fest goin with water from their bowl? or track in some mud, or get wet from the rain? are they not wiped? In fact, my Mastiffs hardly ever over drooled (like Hooch or Sandlot)...so if Flyn W's main selling point is a drooless dog, then pity the novice who cannot see the hair, nails growing, ears that need cleaning, smell that needs attention, barking that comes naturally..

it's actually so simplistic that this American Mastiff was purposely put together as a "designer dog" I give them credit for being able to fool so many..but you can't fool all of the people all of the time..

Again, try to put yourself in some rescue shoes, or read as much as you can on the Mastiff breed History, along with the Anatolian History..perhaps you will be able to understand our concerns..not condemnation of you as a responsible dog owner..

thank you Jake for taking time to read, learn and share with us..Jann's list is just that..

regards,

Gina Anelli

 

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #66 

I always recommend removing the salivary glands!...LOL


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #67 
Jann, at every sunrise he'd bark like crazy!

Good one......  I told my husband.....he looked at me like I was crazy.  He just doesn't appreciate my sense of humor.......

Great thread everyone - lots of good information.  Whenever someone writes and asks me if I have any AM puppies, I respond by sending them to this link so they can read.  They need to cmpletely understand before making their decision.  Some people have written back and said they feel foolish because they didn't realize there was a difference.  It will take some time, but if we all join together and take the time to pass this information along (even if it educates one person) it will be worth it.

Thanks all!

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colinthegirl

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Reply with quote  #68 

I have been involved in this debate before and my feelings have not changed. I get a lot of random people who ask me for advise on puppy-buying, lots of them are interested in the Anatolian/mastiff due to "no drool". My answer is always the same regardless of breed:

 

The most importaint things to look for in a good breeder are temperment and health (being equally importaint). Do not buy from someone who does not health test their dogs, do not take their word for it, you need to see PROOF of health testing (OFA, Pennhip). A health guarentee means nothing if they dont know what they are guarenteeing. Regarding temperment...you need to research the breed (or in this case breeds) and see if they both have the atributes you want.....there is no such thing as a guard dog that loves strangers. The anatolian guards a flock and is a loner. The EM needs to be with people and is not a huge fan of being alone....when you combine the two, how do you know what you will get? Are you willing to pay 1200.00 for a dog of unknown health and a questionable temperment?

 

I usually have them at health testing.

 

I love a good mutt and would share my heart and home with one anyday, but I am not going to contribute the "new breed" money making machine. I would even give credit to an anatolian/mastiff breeder who was interested in starting a REAL breeding program where the pups are all kept by the breeder until some consistant health and temperment was achieved through testing. They would rather pocket the cash and make false claims so I do not feel bad when I say they are UNETHICAL and MONEY HUNGRY.

 

If someone can show me OFAs from a breeder then I might take back part of the unethical...

 

~Colin

 

 


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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #69 
I found this website and thought some might find it interesting - how much is fact, and how much is fiction?

http://www.americanmastiff.org/FAQ.htm

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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #70 
I've had a thought in my head for a long time now.....and I'm going to put in out there for opinions and would like to hear your thoughts. The AM's are definately becoming more popular. There are more and more websites promoting them. I just did a search on "differences between English and American Mastiffs". One page came up. Many pages came up that listed "the difference between the English Mastiff and Bull Mastiff".

Here is my thought....

Is it time for a website that is based soley on the differences between the two?

Do we need a website like this to send potential puppy buyers to so that they can read about the differences and make informed decisions?

Would you be interested in being a part of a committe (i.e, research, documents, legalities) that work together to build an informative webpage (I would be happy to do the web design). Yahoo offers free pages, and if it works out well, they have a package that is around 10.00 per month that I would be happy to pay for.

What would a good name be for a page like this?

This is only a suggestion, and I'm sure there are many ideas I have left out. It's a place to start, so your thoughts would be appreciated.

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Reply with quote  #71 

Well, what I read on this link that Jann posted made me ill:

 

http://www.americanmastiff.org/FAQ.htm

 

I saw a lot of incorrect information and slanted statements. Jann, I think you have a good idea on getting a web page going that explains the differences between Mastiffs and American mastiffs and also points out the incorrect statements given on that site pertaining to Mastiffs. That site basically is one big sales pitch. Blahh...

 


 

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SilverKnight

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Reply with quote  #72 
I wonder how many dissatisfied AM owners are allowed to visit their boards?

I think that's a great idea Jann...

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Reply with quote  #73 

hello everyone,

 

well i dont have an em yet. ive been researching diferent breeds for my family and decided the mastiff was the way to go. i see there is a lot of controversy over the AM and the EM. wow, im not sure what to do??? im in love with the mastiff and want to get a puppy in the very near future. my wife and daughter love the brindles, so thats what im looking for. i dont want to spark an argument but which way should i go (AM/EM). there is a lot of experience on this site so i figured you were the folks to ask. any help is good help....thanks,   Drew    (las vegas)

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SilverKnight

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Reply with quote  #74 
Hi Drew....

Deciding which way to go is ultimately up to you. We here are likely going to tell you EM. That's our breed of choice so of course we'd plug them! Read through this thread, check out the links. Go through the other threads here too...There is a wealth of information. A mastiff isn't for everyone, go to the MCOA website and read the FAQ's.

Good luck in your search.:welcome:

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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #75 
Hi Drew,
Glad you joined the board.  There are many great breeders here that can answer your questions, so please feel free to ask.  Lots of good reading too.    Just a suggestion, but if you have general questions about mastiffs and want to ask, you could always start a thread called "Questions from Drew to Breeders" (or something like that).  You'll find that people pop and in and are very helpful.  Good luck.


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