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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #1 

http://devinefarm.net/rear.htm


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Nicci

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Reply with quote  #2 

Thanks Steve.  I acutally kind of get it now...lol


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Nicci
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #3 

Great link Steve.

 

I have a question about this picture from the link.

 

Is it as simple as the dog on the left just needs more angulation in his shoulders to match his rear angulation? 

***************************************** Thanks!

 

Stifle Joint - Is moderately angulated matching the front."

Balanced (matching) NOT Matching


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Monica
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #4 

The dog on the left is the "proper" balance. The dog on the right needs more angulation in the shoulder, his shoulder's are straight.

 

Keep in mind, that many dogs with level toplines have straight shoulders. It raises the dog up front and can give the impression that the dog is balanced with a good topline. At times, a high rear with straight shoulders can create a swayback as well.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #5 

I've been looking at shoulders for along time now, and I'm just now starting to recognize whether they are correct or not.  For some reason it was much harder training my eye to view shoulders than it was for rears.  I'm glad it's finally starting to click.


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Monica

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Reply with quote  #6 

Steve, I truly did mean to type "right" not left.  Not that I have a lot of credit with "being on top of things...." in certain parts of the world, but I did really.... I was looking at the left and seeing the better angle and typed left when I meant right. 

 

Okay - so, that explaination would be the paranoya affect still dissapaiting... Thanks for playing nicely :-)  And even if you didn't I'm gettin some new armour - I hear if I want to stay in mastiffs I gotta get tough!  I guess I better sign up for another class - my plates getting full - but I have good balance!

 

Thanks - so I was "right."  That's one good test score for the pre-entry eye training course....

 

Thanks


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Monica
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #7 

I probably should have attached some emotis to that post.

 

Like  it is kind of ironic that I made that mistake given recent history... and how about a  because some will most likely find humor - yes I'm laughing too... and  the idea of turning off and going to bed now has crossed my mind! 

 

 


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Monica
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #8 

Monica,

 

You don't need to get "tough", just knowledgeable and that takes time. Never change! You are sincere and you should always be that way in your dealings with others.

 

Don't learn bad habits. Just learn!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #9 

I agree.  There is no need for apologizing for not knowing anything or not understanding.  Trust me. This is coming from a very ignorant person, so I know what I am talking about.  LOL  That just looks to funny not to keep.  That may be my new quote.  That's an oxymoron if there ever was one. LOL


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Chris Murphy
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Nicci

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Reply with quote  #10 

Don't feel too lonely out there Monica... I'm right there with you most of the time.


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Nicci
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #11 

You guys, just like good dogs - helping me clean up (that's what all my dogs do here - clean each other up -now if I could only get them to learn to use the shamppo and hose.... -then they'd smell good and not like slobber....) 

 

Learning - yes - I'm a working away :-) and as genetics would have it - I will only get so tough - which in all honesty is not much tougher than I am - however, there is genetic pre-disposition for increased awareness and knowledge intake!!  That's a good thing :-) 


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Monica
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #12 

been seeing too much of this lately..........

 

On the left ( forgive my drawing ) the hocks are set back, but the stifle has little or no bend. It gives the appearance of angulation, but in reality it's still a straight stifle!



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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #13 

Uh oh now you are drawing..... - not bad tho ;-)

So, does this happen because the handler is attempting to stack the dog back too far to say flatten a not so flat back?  Or does this look occur because that's the way the dog is built?  Both?  I would think that if you had a dog with that straight of angulation (the left ;-) that you would not stack so far back in order to create the "look" of more angulation.

 

Again, look and true build/functionality are totally different.

 

This is where the "eye training" comes .... yes ..?


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Monica
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #14 

Hey Steve,

 

Here's Monty a few weeks ago - I can't see what the heck I am doing when I'm trying to work with stacking as I am going to play around handling him for awhile in the pup classes so I ask my husband to take pics then I look at what I'm doing, send to Jann - here she told me to get the leash in a different place on his neck .... oops :-)

 

Anyway, he is still a bit humpy and someone told me at a show to stack him back further so that the back looks more level.  I have been told (not just by Jann) that he has nice angulation in the back (he's 7 mos) so that I could get away with stacking him back further.  That's what I've been working on and on getting him to hold it both muscularly and patiently.

 

I know I need to work on getting his front legs a bit more under his shoulders.

 

But this is about agulation and my thoughts on leg placement - I know - its kind of scattered and not completely on point, but you'll get and comment I hope - mostly on the post above.

 

There is a different look in the stifle depending on how he is standing.  So, for the learning eye - in what position should we analyze a stifle..?

 



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Monica
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #15 

The hock should be verticle and the stifle should be bent ( see the illustrations posted on angulation ).

 

I'm seeing good hocks with straight stifles on many dogs.

 

The end of the croup should be the beginning of the foot placement, so that if you dropped a line at that point ( the end of the croup ) it would fall at the beginning of the foot.

 

 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #16 

So forgive me - but the "croup" is the furthest point on the dogs back - just top of the tail???  That's where the devine site describes to drop the string from.

 

My post is not so much about overall rear angulation structure, but lets take Monty as an example for me to learn.  Clearly from the pics I had his feet to far back.  So, next time I work on stacking I should place his feet directly under where that string would drop straight down and then check out his angulation?  That would be the way to get a good look and train my eye?

 

Also, what are thoughts on "apperance" vs. "reality" when showing. i.e., you can see from the pics that when he was stacked further back (not proper for observing agulation - according to the rule of string) but his back was pretty flat. Not stacked back as far (and still not really proper according to the diagrams) his humpy back is present.

 

Just curious.

 

Thanks.


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Monica
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #17 

Monica,

 

Watch the westminster film and then watch it again & again.

 

Look at the dogs as they pull up naturally and look at their toplines when they do. Stacking can camouflage many faults but a trained eye looks to go beyond the "stack"!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #18 

This is my little Kodi man at 13 weeks. I have studied his angle since he was a tiny fella and they seem to have stayed pretty true.


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Monica

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Reply with quote  #19 

That's a good information Theresa - I think I am going to do that.  Monty is in such a gangly stage right now when I look back at his pics from when he was 8-12 weeks he was a little beefer but now he's the lean machine ....

 

Did you draw directly on the picture or somehow use the computer to do that? 


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Monica
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Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
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Reply with quote  #20 

I scanned the picture and then saved it in Windows Paint. Then, I used the line drawing too to do the lines. BTW, Kodi is at a skinny looking stage too and he eats like a horse!!

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Monica

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Reply with quote  #21 
I think it was you who taught me how to use the paint feature to shrink my pics (other board) - it works great.  I'll give it a try and I'm gonna go back to pics when he was little - it'll be interesting.  Thanks.
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Monica
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #22 
Bump
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #23 
Bumping to save thread

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #24 

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/05_The_Hindquarters/The_Hindquarters.html

 

 

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/Index_Page/Index_Page.htm


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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brandig

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Reply with quote  #25 

i never know where to start and stop my lines on each dog. dont have it figured out yet.

 


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Hair? what hair? i dont see any hair!!
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