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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #1 

Any issues regarding this most important topic would be appreciated!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Steve, I know you've mentioned the belief that bloat is hereditary.  Do you believe that to be true?

 

If so, can you say why and/or provide a link or location where I can read about this.

 

Also, this I am sure most everyone knows or their vet would tell them, but I'll post just to be sure because I didn't think about it until my vet told me this past weekend.

 

Monty went under sedative for ex-rays (all is totally awesome - he had a small limp - no pano, no congenital anything - all is well) moving right along - the vet informed me when I brought him home to only allow him small amounts of water that night and then the following day to feed him in many intervals - 1 1/2 cups every few hours with some water mixed in.  This is because his belly had been empty for over 24 hours and he wanted me to be very careful about bloat.  Just FYI - some vets aren't always on top of stuff or the Big Dog stuff and he did mention being extra cautious becuase he's a large breed.

 

So, just in case your dog has been off food for some or whatever reason - start him/her back slowly.


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steveoifer

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http://www.dogstuff.info/beating_bloat_pflaumer.html

 

 

Bloat can be hereditary, but it is not genetic, as ironic as that may sound!

 

Certain lines may have a greater propensity towards gastric torsion ( bloat ), but it is more due to an inherited body structure, rather than stemming from a specific "bloat gene"! 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #4 

Here's an article that I found particularly informative on Canine Bloat -

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=TUFTSBG2003&PID=5091&O=Generic

 

Bloat is scary because it happens SO fast.  Knock wood, I have never had it happen to one of my Mastiffs, but did have it with a Great Dane.  I don't used raised feeders anymore except for with one dog (because he had raised in his old home and prefers it).  I don't watch exercise before eating, but my guys are expected to be calm and quiet for a good 2 hours after meals.  I do think that kibble diets (and stress and hereditary tendency) play a part in bloat.  I am gradually switching my guys over to a raw, natural diet again. 

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Crossroads

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Reply with quote  #5 

Kristen,

 

Are you switching back to raw because you believe that dogs on a kibble diet may be more likely to bloat?  I'm always struggling with the raw vs. kibble, so I'm just wondering about your thoughts.

 

Also,  I often see posts mentioning your "rough start" in mastiffs.  It has left me rather curious.  If it's a story you wouldn't mind sharing, maybe I could learn something from it.  If you don't feel comfortable sharing that's OK too.


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Jennifer Patterson
Crossroads Mastiffs
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"Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American GI....one died for your soul, the other died for your freedom"
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #6 

I'm glad someone asked Kristen.  I am pretty sure that Geri from Capewind has a pluthra of information on raw feeding and if I am making a mistake Geri - please correct me.  I am almost without doubt sure it is you who is the raw feeder...and provided many with detailed instructions.

 

In the back of my head or in my gut (no pun intended) I feel feeding raw is probably best, but I am really scared to endeavor, especially since I have had to adjust the level of proteins in the kibble alone for Monty because he has had some really big growth spurts. 

 

I have not researched raw enough to make a choice yet.  I am also afraid to do it while Monty is in the puppy stage.  Maybe we should start a thread entitled RAW - Geri might cringe... and some may have read a lot of what might go into it in other places.... I won't start it but someone else could :-)


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Monica
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Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
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Reply with quote  #7 

Jennifer,

I am switching for a multitude of reasons (one of which is because I think a natural diet is healthier in all aspects), but yes, bloat is a big concern for me w/ kibble. 

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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #8 
Someone told me the other day that there is a bloat kit that has some type of device that you put directly into a dogs side to release air.  I've never heard of this and was wondering if anyone has a description of what this is.

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #9 

http://www.eclipse.net/~bobaloo/bloat.htm


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #10 

I lost two dogs to this problem and as I understand it, Great Danes have a 25%-45% bloat rate as well.

 

Getting to the vet as fast as possible is key, but before that, if your dogs abdomen is fully bloated with gas ( and this is not for the squeamish ) a syringe just might give buy your dog some time before the vet. Not for the squeemish and you should talk to your vet BEFORE a bloating incidence occurs about performing this potential life saving procedure!!!

 

First you must remove the plunger of the syringe. Next you need to find the point right before the ribs on the most distended part of the stomach. You then need to insert the syringe needle into that point and you will hear lots of gas escaping. This could save the dogs life. Speak to your vet about the procedure in advance of a potential bloat. You will need a larger than normal syringe needle, ask you vet about the proper gauge. I used this once and saved Boulder, but lost him a year later on another bout with this terrible condition.

 

S.O.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #11 

Illustrated bloated stomach and a possible corrective technique. *Please note that the upright position denotes the dog standing on two legs.

Attachments:

Click image for larger version<br><br>Name: scan0005.jpg<br>Views: 17<br>Size: 318.46 KB<br>

 

I first thought of this maneuver months ago and posted it on another forum. Essentially, if the dog comes down with bloat, it's stomach will rotate and physically be unable to reverse rotation due to the physics of the positioning of the stomach in a horizontal position.

 

By standing the dog upright on it's hind legs, it will reposition the stomach vertically and then the stomach has a better chance of  simply "untwisting"!

 

It may take several people with a large breed and the dog should be muzzled ( one can use a make shift muzzle like a rope etc. 

 

If needed, a further explanation will be provided if you e-mail me.

 

 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #12 
http://www.globalspan.net/bloat.htm
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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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giselle

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Reply with quote  #13 
Does anyone here advise the tacking of a bitch's stomach during a spay as a preventative? 

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #14 

I would do it!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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TamK

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Reply with quote  #15 
Bloat Kit

This is the kit I have suggested in the past.  We've experienced 3 bloats in our years in mastiffs.
 One was due to stress with a 2 year old male, bloat relieved by vet with needle, there was torsion and surgery.  Lived another 7 years without another episode.

Second was 3 year old female the morning after a c-section.  Vet that performed the c-section stated she may of looped an intestine.  We were able to successfully tube her and transport an hour to the vet, she died during the operation. (nightmare come true)

Third was a 9 year old male, not sure why he bloated.  We were able to successfully tube, no vomiting of kibble just air and liquids. He was fine by the time our vet arrived.  Gave him lots of gas x and our vet suggested valium to calm his breathing.

I hope this will help someone and if your in need don't ever hesitate to phone us day or night.


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Tami
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #16 

First you must remove the plunger of the syringe. Next you need to find the point right before the ribs on the most distended part of the stomach. You then need to insert the syringe needle into that point and you will hear lots of gas escaping. This could save the dogs life. Speak to your vet about the procedure in advance of a potential bloat. You will need a larger than normal syringe needle, ask you vet about the proper gauge. I used this once and saved Boulder, but lost him a year later on another bout with this terrible condition.

 

Steve, can you show me a diagram of the correct area to place the syringe?  Also, do you have a guess on the gauge size?


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #17 

It's been a while since I purchased syringes. our best bet is to talk to your vet. They can show you exactly where to insert the syringe and the correct gauge to use.

I wouldn't want to show you a diagram and then have it not followed directly over the net.

 

The stomach will be swollen and will feel like a basketball, if you were to flick the left side with your fingers, it would sound very hollow. Where the skin is thinnest and the stomach wall is pressed right next to it is where the needle should be inserted. You will hear the gas escape immediately from the pressure.

 

Speak to your vet first!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #18 

Tami - I am going to make a Bloat Kit.  The kit calls for 2 stomach tubes of different diameters.  I do not know what diameters to use.  Is this something you would be able to tell me or should I contact our vet?  I am also going to keep the syringes on hand and will call the vet re: the gauge to use.  Wondering about the tubing is it something to be purchased from the vet - I am assuming most likely.

Thanks.


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Monica
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #19 

In case of torsion, stand your dog upright if you can on it's two hind legs, or get assistance. If it is just torsion, the stomach can spin back to it's original position.

 

I'll discuss this further tomorrow, but I must get some Zzzzzzzzzzz now!...LOL


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #20 

Steve - you were going to talk more about this - anyone also know about the tubing?


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Monica
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Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
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Crossroads

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Reply with quote  #21 

This is the bloat kit I built.  The only difference in mine is that I opted for the roll of tape to guide and hold the tube in the dogs mouth instead of the wooden block with the hole in it.

 

I hope it's ok for me to copy and paste this.  If not please let me know and I'll delete it.  Also here's the link if you want to read this article.

http://www.kifka.com/Elektrik/BloatFirstAid.htm

 

 

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Top
End

The Emergency Kit

The following items will help you administer first aid in a bloat emergency. You can find the first 3 items in a hardware store, such as Home Depot, or at a pet store that carries aquariums :
  1. 1/2 inch ( inside diameter ) x 6 feet, clear, non-toxic, vinyl tube
    ( outside diameter = 5/8 inch ).
    1.25 cm x 182 cm ( outside diameter = 1.6 cm )
  2. 1/4 inch (inside diameter) x 6 feet, clear, non-toxic, vinyl tube
    (outside diameter = 3/8 inch).
    .60 cm x 182 cm ( outside diameter = .95 cm )
  3. 2x2 wood block, 8 inches long with 3/4 inch diameter hole in center.
    5 cm x 5 cm x 20 cm ( 1.90 cm diameter hole)
  4. Water soluble lubricating jelly, such as K-Y jelly.
  5. 2 feet of soft nylon cord, or an old soft nylon leash.
    61 cm of cord
  6. Electrical tape to mark tubing
Bloat kit

Prepare the items as follows:

  1. Smooth the ends of the vinyl tubing by holding it briefly over a weak flame (e.g. cigarette lighter). The heat should lightly melt the vinyl around the outer rim of the end of the tube, thus smoothing the edge. Be sure to rotate the tube so the entire outer rim is slightly melted, and not just one side. Do the same thing to the other end of the tube. The reason for smoothing the end is to minimize potential damage to the dog's internal organs when you pass the tube.
  2. Drill a 3/4 inch hole through the center of the wood block and sand off any splinters. Make certain that you can pass the larger ( 1/2 inch ) vinyl tube through this hole easily.
  3. Put all the above 5 items into a large freezer bag and seal the bag--you now have an emergency bloat kit. Always leave a kit in every car you travel with your dogs in, and another kit in a handy location at home.
  4. As an additional preparation step, if you only have 1 or 2 dogs, you may want to mark your vinyl tubings with tape before storage: ( Run the tube along the outside of your dog's body, tracing the contours of where the tube would go if you were passing it. Run the tube to just behind the last rib--that's where the stomach should be--mark the spot. This will give you an idea as to whether the tube has successfully been passed into the stomach when you're actually doing it. It will also save you from having to rough measure when the time comes

 


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Jennifer Patterson
Crossroads Mastiffs
http://www.crossroadsmastiffs.com

"Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American GI....one died for your soul, the other died for your freedom"
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Crossroads

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Reply with quote  #22 

I read that the needle should be 14 gauge or large and 1.5 to 3 inches in length.

 

Here's the link to that information:

http://www.great-dane-rescue.org/bloatbook.html

 

You can also order the whole kit from the DVM on this site.


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Jennifer Patterson
Crossroads Mastiffs
http://www.crossroadsmastiffs.com

"Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American GI....one died for your soul, the other died for your freedom"
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Cedarhollow

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Reply with quote  #23 

I have only had one experience with bloat and it cost me my boy.  There was no food involved and none of the typical symptoms they tell you to look for.  In the end we concluded that his was triggered by drinking ice cold water...a lot of it.  It was about 2am in December and the dogs asked to go out as it got a bit toasty in the house and they all wanted a drink.  (We keep our water outside)  The water had a thin film of ice over it that the dogs would break with their paws before drinking...this was a THIN film...nothing major...but the water was COLD.  Some of my guys like to drink water just for the sake of drinking...they will look like they swallowed a watermelon!  This boy is not one that usually does that.  He came in and I laughed at him because he had done just that...he looked pregnant because he drank so much water.  He did throw up a bunch of ice water but then was fine.  No distention after throwing up the water, no pacing, no drooling, no more attempts to throw up, etc.  The only thing to give me concern was that he was not one to normally drink water like that.  Well, he also tends to sleep on his back with his legs in the air.  And...that is how I woke up...to him sleeping on his back.  He seemed to be fine...no distention...no pacing...etc.  So, I went to work.  I came home 2 hrs later and he didn't meet me at the door.  I called him and he slowly got up and he was 'thick' looking.  It was weird...the only way to describe it was he looked thicker.  There was no huge belly or anything...he was simply thicker from his chest all the way back to his hips.  I rushed him to the vets.  They jabbed him in the side with the 15 gage needle and air escaped so they tubed him.  They could not get the tube all the way in but did get some air and liquid out.  They said they had to do surgery.  This boy was 1 month shy of 7yrs.  When they opened him up they found that his stomach had completely twisted at the opening.  His prognosis was not good...except that his cardiovascular system was in incredible condition...to the point the vet reconfirmed his age because they said it was that of a 2yr old.  We opted to not put him down and give him a chance to see if he could recover...based only on the condition of his cardiovascular system.  The vet said that there was some immediate improvement to the stomach but only time would tell if the rest would heal or not.  This was Friday morning.  We lost him on Sunday morning. 

I guess the moral of this story is that there are not necessarily any clear cut symptoms.  Also, there was ZERO food involved.  The vet concluded that the trigger was the ICE cold water when he was over heated.  He said that in the many cases of bloat he has seen...more have involved very cold water than food.  What seemed weird to us was that they 'eat' ice all summer long...especially when we are at shows...with no problems.  He said that the difference is that when they are eating ice they aren't consuming the quantity of very cold water that he did when drinking the ice water.  Then when he was 'rolling' onto his back to sleep is probably when the stomach twisted. 

Last winter...after this happened...we moved our water inside.  This year we have purchased a 'heater' for the water bucket that keeps it from getting so cold.  My husband is in the process of working on making a 'thing' to protect the cord, etc from the dogs chewing on it.  It is for horses to keep the water troughs from freezing.  The vet compared what happened to our boy to colic in horses.  Makes sense.


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Monica

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Reply with quote  #24 

Jennifer- thank you for the links and for the tubing diameters.

Jamie - thank you so much for sharing your story.  I would not have thought about that at all.  My water, which is also outside, will be coming into the laundry room this winter - I can clean faces in there before they come out (we have a door) to cut down on the drool and slobber in the house which is why I moved the water outside this summer.  I'm home and can give them access during the day.

 

 


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Monica
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #25 
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