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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #1 
John owns a mediocre bitch named " Ugly Gerti of Makeover Hall". John knows that there are great dogs behind her and wants to breed her ASAP! John feels that her sire, " Ch. I'm Better Than Any Other Mastiff" and Ugly's dam, Ch. " I Can't Produce Anything Ugly" will present themselves again if he finds the "right" stud to use on "ugly" ( his endearing nickname for "ugly" ).

John does an extensive search and his efforts are rewarded. "International Am. & Can. & New Guinean & Somalian Ch. Joe" is finally used at stud and to John's great good fortune, the litter has a SUPER pup which emerges. After consulting hundreds of mastiff breeders and owners, John finally arrives at a name for this pup. After a long exhausted effort, he names this fantastic dog........ "Joe ll"

"Joe ll" is such a super dog that he is finished after just one show out of the 6-9 puppy class, a first in mastiff history!

At 24 mths there is a waiting list to use Joe ll at stud. John is going to make a fortune on frozen & stud fees. Hundreds of insemination's are done and 10 years later "International Am. & Can. & Nepalian & Iranian & Mex. & Lichtensteinian CH. Joe ll" is showing up in EVERY pedigree.

Unfortunately, in the aftermath of Joe ll's extensive influence on the breed, the entire mastiff population has become a mediocre lot, and John keeps seeing images of "Ugly Gerti" showing up in his dreams at night!

John begins obsessing why he never got into Dobermans!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #2 
I take it that you're saying "Ugly Gerti" should have been spayed and not bred, and because of her breeding there are alot of little Ugly Jrs. running around?

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Monica

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Reply with quote  #3 

 

You should do more posts like that - they are belly rollers and hey, I got it!!


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Monica
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #4 

I'm saying, that I've heard it said once too often, that a mediocre dog has produced "great stuff", because of their pedigrees.

 

Even if you get something nice in G1 eventually the genes which created "Gerti" will also show up.

 

Many breeders only want the "quick fix". They own some bitches and want their $$$$ back on their investment. They will rationalize all reasons for going forward with the breedings and if they get something nice, it only justifies their "long term" mistake in progress! 

 

Does the end justify the means?

 

It all depends on how long one's "end horizon" is!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #5 

So using dam, BARBIE and sire, KEN for a breeding you'd think - lots of BARBIE and KEN's - woohoo!  But to really do a thourough job is to also look at BARBIE AND KEN'S parents and their parents?  When do you take a plunge?  What if BARBIE's Grandma was the UGLY DUCKLING, but KEN'S PARENTS and GRANDPARENTS were just like KEN- would you take the chance that maybe once in awhile BARBIE's Grandma might make an entrance?  I would. 


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Monica
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LEXIMSTF

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Reply with quote  #6 

 

 

Do you think it more harmful to breed to the mediocre dog with the great pedigree or the great dog with the mediocre pedigree?


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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #7 
That's a very good question Erica, unfortunately, I don't have enough years of breeding under my belt to be able to answer that question first hand, although, I am really looking forward to reading what others have to say and learning from their experience.

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HeartsDesire

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Reply with quote  #8 

I would think that the big mistake would be just breeding by the pedigree.  I would look at the whole package.  I want to know what is behind them, their siblings and what they have produced.  I also think that maybe poor "ugly" should not of been bred. 

 

I would like to know how much responsibility do you think should be put on the stud dog owner for a breeding?

 

I see a lot of dogs that finished quick and doing well and everyone wants to breed to him thinking that they will get one just like him. 


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #9 

Erica,

 

It can be a toss up either way!

 

The good dog with the mediocre pedigree ( define mediocre pedigree ) is good because something behind it combined to form a "good" dog.

 

The mediocre dog with the great pedigree ( define great pedigree ) didn't "click" in the breeding which produced it.

 

The best chance for producing great dogs is by breeding great dogs, which have similar form.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LEXIMSTF

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Reply with quote  #10 

 

 

Great pedigree in the same way you described it up top: filled with great dogs.

 

Mediocre pedigree: filled with mediocre dogs.

 


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #11 

In theory, it is more harmful to breed the "great" dog with the mediocre pedigree ( based on your assumptions ).

 

But as I stated, both are a coin toss and there are more desirable combinations!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #12 

Steve wrote: "... and there are more desirable combinations!"

So, I would think that the more desirable combination would be great dogs with great pedigrees, but we all have to start somewhere, at least in between and build - do you agree Steve?


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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #13 

Hey Steve, you left out a very important possibility in that scenario.  If a line of dogs is typically very consistent in what they produce, but they did end up producing what turned out to be a mediocre bitch, should it be bred?  I don't care who produced the dog or the pedigree behind it, you are going to have a MUCH harder time producing quality pups from it.  Unless..... it is being linebred back to the same family.  To produce the type of that particular family, it is usually attainable by breeding a mediocre bitch to a good stud in the same family.  It will probably NOT breed true if it is bred to a different family, no matter how good it is.  If you double up on the same lines with one good and one mediocre bitch, you typically get a good litter.  If you breed a mediocre bitch to something unrelated, the genes will rarely "click".  Obviously, the best bet is a line bred awesome to awesome, but we all need to outcross from time to time.  When outcrossing, you usually get a large variance in type.  I would place my bets on a litter from the more mediocre offspring bred back to the original line than I would an awesom offspring bred independantly.  This is just my oppinion, but I have seen it all too often.  That is what I typically think of when you talk about breeding for pedigree.  I personally would not "breed for pedigree" too often unless it was familial.  I have yet to see a dog I would breed because of it's pedigree, and expect an exceptional litter, without taking it back to those same exceptional dogs again.  Just a better chance of emphasizing the right genes.  Again, JMO


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Chris Murphy
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Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #14 

Monica,

Why begin "in between"?

 

There are lots of top quality dogs out there to begin a breeding program and you will waste years starting "in between" and trying to "build" a better line! 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #15 

Chris,

 

I believe I understand your points, but I've been in this game for too long and have seen too many highs and lows to give a thumbs up to any breeding program not using top dogs which are of like form.

 

Outcrossing to "like form" will have the same net affect over time as inbreeding ( look at your dobermans )and you don't get the inbreeding negatives associated with a close line program.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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medievalmastiff

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Reply with quote  #16 

What defines a great pedigree versus a mediocre predigree???   Look at the dogs, what they have come from and what they produce.  If you find consistancy in the lines to me that is a dog that can be bred to if it has what you need.   Just because a dog is well known, has many CH. behind it doesen't make it a breedable dog to me.

 

Lisa


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Lisa Gannon
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medievalmastiff

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Reply with quote  #17 

Chris,

   I also believe that breeding two "different families", as you put it, can produce good pups if both sire and dam are very inbred.  I find you get the best of both coming through.  Breeding a very inbred bitch to a sire who is not inbred, from different families seems not to produce well.   I have also done a breeding which was a total outcross, no relations anywhere, and produced some very nice pups.  Guess it all depends on if the  genes mesh well.


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Lisa Gannon
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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #18 

I agree with Lisa, some total outcrosses just click, but they seem to be few and far between. Pedigree means everything to me. If I saw a dog that "took my breath away" beautiful, balanced, etc. But upon reviewing the pedigree, if it was very diverse, hodgpodge, no consistency in bloodlines, or even phenotype, I would not consider using such a dog in my breeding program. But lets say a breeding is done, that I find the pedigree very desirable, I know many of the dogs in the pedigree vertical and horizontal. A singleton male pup is born. For whatever reason, the breeding is never repeated. This boy is the only one of this particular pedigree. He grows into a decent boy but not quite the grandeur that was expected. If I wanted this pedigree and to incorporate all the admiral qualities that I found in the ancestors, I would use such a boy. I have found that in breeding,  any combination is only as good as the dogs behind it and beside it, and you can pull from the pedigree to attain desired characteristics in the offspring. The real trick is trying to maintain it.


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Monica

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Reply with quote  #19 

Steve, I do totally agree with the "why start in the middle" comment.  What I guess I should have elaborated on is that not all get the best the first dog or bitch around.  They may have done their best to find the best, but when that "supposed best" is grown up and you are ready to breed, it might not be "the best" but have enough good qualities to completely validate breeding and continuing on the quest for the "best."  And you might breed the best to the best and end up with nothing great in the litter... Back to the drawing board and search for the next best.... Does that mean your first two bests are now "somewhere in the middle?"  Now you might be starting somewhere in the middle and working your way up to "the best" or close thereto.  And one day you may find yourself back in the middle and climbing back up again...

 

In a perfect world, we would all have perfect mastiffs the first time around that throw perfect pups the first time around.  I admire all the breeders who are attempting to do this...  I do appreciate and understand where you are coming from with regard to wanting the mastiff people/breeder population to look more closely plan very carefully - I think a lot are - the pics on this board are tell tale true.

 

And if I didn't throw in enough "bests" - with all that said, I am doing my best to bring home the "best" ----- one day......... :-)


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Monica
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #20 

I believe I understand your points, but I've been in this game for too long and have seen too many highs and lows to give a thumbs up to any breeding program not using top dogs which are of like form.

 

Outcrossing to "like form" will have the same net affect over time as inbreeding ( look at your dobermans )and you don't get the inbreeding negatives associated with a close line program.

 

 

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there Steve.  I have been involved with too many breedings myself and seen results from them personally.  I am teased quite often about going to see litters, just to see them.  There have been many great outcrosses out there.  In fact, some of the best are outcrosses, but the litter is seldom as consistent as a line breeding and therefore, less successful in my eyes.  If they are successful, one or both of the parents are almost always line bred.  A hodge podge pedigree never produces consistency.  I will not pretend to be a Doby man, or know much about them, but I did search a few of the top breeders and they are also line breeding!  The vast majority of successful breeders, in all breeds, line breed.  Even people in the horse racing industry spend millions of dollars on horses and they pay very close attention to pedigree.  There have been numerous papers written by both geneticists and successful breeders alike that disagree with your stance.  That doesn't prove you are wrong, it just means that you are definitely going against the grain of most successful breeders.  I judge a successful breeder by the consistency of what they produce.  Why would you want to buy a dog from someone that wasn't consistent?  You would not know what to expect.  I stumbled upon this link a few days ago.  It is not directly related, but it is indirectly and is very interesting. 

BtW, I am the current King of outcrossing so to speak.  I do believe it has merits, but I am creating new lines from them for the future.  A linebred outcross has more value to me than any great dog with a diverse pedigree.  The plain and simple fact is that the more diverse your pedigree is, the more genes for health problems are found in it.  This goes against popular view because they are less frequently expressed.  That does not mean they are not there!  Mongrels are not healthier than pure bred dogs.  That is a farce. That is a studied and proven fact.  A linebred program will show it's strengths and weaknesses over time and will allow you to make a better informed breeding decision.  Even when line breeding, you are shooting from the hip, but with outcrossing to an open pedigree, you are shooting in the dark! 


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Chris Murphy
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Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #21 

Monica,

 

It's all about what you can afford to do, or not to do.

 

If you buy a pup from a good sire & dam, which does not turn out to you expectations, but because you made a monetary and emotional investment, you might use the dog for your breeding program anyway. Some might do otherwise!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #22 

Chris,

 

You're talking to the "original" inbreed/linebreed "freak"!...LOL

 

That was my game early on in mastiffs and THAT is why I have the view that I do.

 

Near term value is there with linebreeding. It can do very nice things for you in the short term. That's why I'm against it for building a long term mastiff population of consistant type.

 

Breeding "like to like" outcrosses over time, will establish type and eliminate the lack of vigor which results over time using linebreeding. In addition, in a strong linebreeding program one must introduce an outcross eventually anyway and there goes your consistency. It could take years after that introduced outcross to get back on track again.

 

That's why we've seen great kennels come and go throughout mastiff history.

 

They placed all their marbles on linebreeding and eventually lost it all!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #23 

I guess I am confused on what you are usuing as a comparison.  I did not think that you were in the game long enough to create a line so to speak.  Are you trying to use your experience as an example?  I am not being mean here, just trying to see where you are coming from.  I would kinda like to see the pedigrees you are referring to as being an unsuccessful breeding program.  Out of all the wonderful breeders here, look at how many you see consistently producing nice dogs and then look at their pedigrees.  Do you see any that are not line bred?  BTW, Farnaby is one of, if not the oldest, lines being bred today.   It is also the most inbred!  As long as it is done correctly, there is nothing wrong with it!  To say it will be the end of all these wonderful breeders is kinda scarey and it, like mine, is just an oppinion! 


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Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #24 

 

 

 

Just for the record, Brandy was the ONLY bitch I kept from 3 litters which produced 27 + or - pups. She became a fast champion under judges like Marie Moore etc.

 

That said, I started off in mastiffs by purchasing a "show quality" pup from Ed Gerace at Greenbranch. "Greenbranch Prince Regent" ( A/K/A-Taurus, which I've posted pictures of as well ) had a superb pedigree, but little else. He was my first mastiff and I loved him to death, but never bred him because of his faults. He was also a half brother of Gulf Mills Resounder, a national MCOA BOB winner!

 

Should I have bred Taurus?

 

 

I next purchased a dog from Massalane, "Massalane's Grand Boulder. I was involved with this breeding at Massalane from it's inception. I convinced Maxine ( owner of Massalane )to go back to Trek ( CH. Little's Atlas of Massalane ) and use Trek on his own dam "CH. Bengalis Tigress". This was the first stage of my inbreeding "experiment". Boulder was the largest fawn pup in the litter and remained the largest of his siblings as they all matured. It was a very strong litter in general, half being brindles.

 

Boulder's "type" was very similar to his sire and the inbreeding worked. Boulder did not suffer from any genetic abnormalities and he did pick up certain traits that were lacking in his sire as well ( lack of fore-chest/ depth of chest/ weight gain issues ) in all other regards he was very striking and intimidating. His size, head, topline, length, bite, coat, tail etc. were strong.

 

I encouraged Maxine to proceed with the pairing which produced "like on like" type.

 

Next in my inbreeding experiment, Bob Burke and I decided to co-own a bitch which we would breed to Boulder. Once again we went back to Maxine and used Ch. Bengali Tigress with Bob Burke's Ch. Willowledge Ajax. Ajax was a half brother to Jackie Guy's Ch. Willowledge Caesar lll. He was not a very tall mastiff 30-31" and was a rich apricot in color. He had a very nice head, but was straight in the rear. He went BOB over his half brother at Rockland KC in a fairly large turnout for that period in time.

 

Ch. Bengali Tigress produced angulation and perhaps a bit too much angulation, so the hope was that this union would enhance Ajax's rear to some degree.  The breeding went as planned and we picked Raven of Massalane ( an apricot brindle ) as our bitch. Raven was very sound and possessed a beautiful dark brindled coat. She had a nice head and hated the ring & judges. Any judge which wanted to see her bite might literally see it!...LOL  We tried using pro handlers, but she would have no part of it and so she was never shown. I believe there were 2-3 champions from this litter.

 

I then bred her to Boulder, her half brother and produced a really nice litter. I repeated that union and once again the litter was strong. We had fawns, apricots & brindles each time. When Tobin saw one of my brindle gals from this breeding he was salivating and wanted to breed to her, but the owner had her spayed prior ( perhaps it was just as well ). The other siblings all were very typey and locked in that Kisimu "stamp" which this line was heavy on.

 

So far, my inbreeding program was doing pretty good and type was being established. In the 70's there were tremendous variations in type and my "grand experiment" was designed to lock in and replicate type rather than just breed for the next MCOA winner and lose type thereafter.

 

My next breeding was going to use Little's George of Massalane's son "Rigatoni". George was a litter brother of Trek and I felt it was worth another experiment by using Rigatoni. My goal in this breeding was to see if I could get more chest ( Rigatoni had this quality ) yet still stay within the line through George his father.

 

This breeding produced nothing of merit. Rigatoni was not an exceptionally tall mastiff and Raven/Rigatoni did not produce what I wanted. It did provide me with further information as to what was in those lines and stepping out of the inbreeding a bit revealed other knowledge about the linebreeding process in general.

 

I used Boulder at stud on three other occasions with outside bitches and didn't have an opportunity to see the get from those breedings due to logistics.

 

I lost Boulder soon after to bloat, Taurus also died from bloat one year before Boulder died. I was left with Raven and Brandy and then lost Brandy to septic shock. Eventually, I was left with an aging brindle ( Raven ) who died at 10 1/2 of cancer.

 

I needed a break from mastiffs and the heartache of losing them at such early ages. Then in time, other business issues kicked in and outside pressures deterred me from getting actively back into this wonderful breed.

 

 

I never was a "kennel operator", nor did I ever attempt to "mass produce" mastiffs. I was a mastiff enthusiast who experimented with inbreeding, but couldn't move the experiment much further, due to the issues and events named above. 

 

Pedigree of Taurus 

Click image for larger version<br><br>Name: scan0019.jpg<br>Views: 28<br>Size: 864.97 KB<br>* (Balint & Rhinehart cut off at top & bottom of scan)

Does anyone remember the last line of Eddie Felton in "The Color of Money"?


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #25 

Boulder used at stud with Castle Gate's bitch and Boulder's litter brother Ethan used as well.

 

* (I'm 6 ft tall in the photo....and a lot younger!...LOL )


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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