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Farpoint

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Reply with quote  #26 

A few years back I belonged to an e-mail group that was led by the late Dr. John Armstrong.  He argued strongly for the low inbreeding coefficient approach to breeding, and what he said made sense to me.  Here is a link to some good articles along that line

http://www.canine-genetics.com/Genetics.htm

 

I personally feel that I do not yet have a strong enough eye to be able to really identify what is phenotypically like to like.  So I don't get what I thought I would when I try to use his approach.  Yet I worry about producing too many health problems with the close line-breeding approach.  I guess that is why my dogs' type appear a bit schizophrenic at times

 

Developing that eye is a big reason why I finally took the plunge and joined this group.  I have been incredibly blessed with the dogs that I have been able to obtain and to use for breeding, but my own efforts to date are mixed with what I produce.  I would dearly love to find that consistency that everyone talks about

 

Diana


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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #27 

Another interesting myth to be dispelled is that in natural selection, inbreeding is rare.  There are many times were nature inbreeds heavier than we ever would and for several generations.  For many pack animals there is only one dominant male that will breed and he will do so until he becomes too old or a younger and stronger male can take his place.  Then the process repeats.  Often he is replaces by his grandson that is a result of him breeding his own daughter to begin with!  Just a thought.


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Chris Murphy
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #28 

Here's another thought!

 

http://skandulv.nina.no/skandulv%20new/Publikasjoner/English%20pdf%20files/06-BL2005017.pdf#search=%22inbreeding%20in%20the%20wild%22

 

 

"The fitness consequences of inbreeding in the wild are unknown, but we have recently found experimental evidence using wild mice that inbreeding is much more detrimental than studies in colony conditions have found (Meagher, Penn, and Potts, Submitted). This means that there should be strong selection favoring the evolution of genetic inbreeding avoidance mechanisms."


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #29 

What's the name of that song that says, "It's just you and me and we just disagree"?  Of course, you know we both think we are right.    That is the beauty of oppinions! LOL  


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Chris Murphy
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #30 
Chris, It's not just "my" opinion!
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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Farpoint

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Reply with quote  #31 

Ok, here's another link http://www.alachealth.org/mhc.htm

 

The MHC complex of genes plays a big role in immune and reproductive health.  In natural breeding populations the girls still get some say in who wins.  At one point I had brother and sister littermates and also an un-related male.  When sister was not in season she was totally devoted to brother preferring to sleep and play with him to the exclusion of the other male.  When sister was in season, she made it quite clear that brother should just go explode or something.  She spent all her energy chasing the un-related male into a corner and flaunting her wares at him.

 

Also, just because they are inbred on paper doesn't mean that they are inbred genetically (although that is probable).

 

Diana


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #32 
Good article Diana! 
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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #33 

Come on Steve, neither of us can prove we are right here.  I am not the only one with my oppinion here either.  We can both quote articles on genetics for days and only prove that there are several different oppinions on it!  It seems the articles that you are using for validation are using possible immune issues and a depression in fertility.  I counter with the fact that the immune system grows and adapts to it's environment and not it's pedigree.  It is then passed on to it's offspring.  Since we now breed to dogs all over the world, let alone this country, I do not find that a valid argument.  A close while back maybe, but it does not aply anymore.  Geography used to play a large role in immune function, but it now takes a lesser role due to the ease of travel and use of foreign studs.  While there can be a depression in fertility through constant inbreeding, the same can be said for constant outcrossing.  That is not often discussed because it is contrary to what many are trying to prove, but it is a fact.  I believe it may be noted in the link I provided.  I do not claim to be a geneticist, but I do have one in the family that is.  She was part of the team that found the DNA blueprint for Alzheimer's a few years ago and helped creat drugs to treat it.  I am not one to pull stuff out of my rear as validation, this is true.  That is how I knew of the depression in fertility caused from continual outcrossing, just like inbreeding.  When line breeding, you are more likely to bring out any bad genes behind the dogs.  When outcrossing, you will bring in more bad genes, but they will express themselves less often.  Basically, the devils you know or the army of devils you don't.  That is why I linebreed on what I have found to be sound.  I also had to start over with an entirely new group of dogs because of the health issues I found with my first.  There are certain health issues that I just do not want to ever pop up.  That is why I do not believe in continually outcrossing.  Eventually, you or someone you sold to, will double up on EVERYTHING.   I can handle a higher frequency of less severe health issues than I can a lesser frequency of problems more likely to cause quality of life issues or premature death.  Again, just my oppinion.  Pay close attention to many of the articles that state "nature" as an example of random breedings.  They are typically not from naturalist scientists and they do not understand that most mammals are constantly inbreeding.   Nature is best example of inbreeding there is.  Of course, eventually all animals do go extinct I guess.  I probably won't be around that long though.  LOL


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Chris Murphy
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #34 

Chris,

 

I feel that you are using exceptions to "prove" the rule!

 

If infertility was rampant in the outcrossed community of mammals, there would be no mammals!

 

Inbreeding occurs in the wild, but it is not the prevailing mode of reproduction. One reason why birds fly OUT of the nest!

 

You can't do enough inbreeding/linebreeding to have any significant affect on the issues you've mentioned. It would take too many generations, therefore linebreeding is fine for near term goals, but to build a strong race of mastiffs, will require strict standards and dedicated outcrossing.

 

Over time, you will get a much stronger breed all around.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #35 

Inbreeding occurs in the wild, but it is not the prevailing mode of reproduction. One reason why birds fly OUT of the nest!

 

We are not breeding birds.  We are breeding pack animals.  Pack animals are extremely inbred in nature.  Let's use another 4 legged mamal as an example.  The Lion.  One male, several females and he breeds them all and then all the offspring for generations until he dies or is replaced by a rogue male.  Then the process repeats.  The male is typically linebred as well, just from a different family.  Facts are facts.  I am not using exceptional examples here to explain anything.  This is just how it happens.  Deer inbreed commonly because of their lifestyles.  On a side note, it is pretty hard for me to tell Lions apart.  They are pretty consistent in appearance.  LOL  We seem to have gotten off topic here by going from how to create a more uniform type, to potential problems.  There is no better way to create uniformity than to limit the number of genes.  By limiting the number of genes, you have a higher chance of expressing those same genes!  That is not only fact, but simple logic.  You will run the risk of bringing forth the frequency of bad genes expressing themselves, but it will not create new genes(excluding the chance of mutation).  That is the only way to know what is behind your dogs, good or bad.  You have not, and will not, find a paper from any reputable person disputing those facts.  We just disagree on how to acheive the look we prefer.   You can tell me that you would not do it that way, but you can't tell me that limiting the gene pool will not more commonly express the same genes!  Inbreeding does not bring in new genes.  Outcrossing does, be the genes good or bad!  That is why I stick to a smaller gene pool that I know.  I don't have to worry about certain genes popping up very often! 


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Chris Murphy
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #36 

You can't do enough inbreeding/linebreeding to have any significant affect on the issues you've mentioned.

 

If you believe that, then you haven't been to many kennels that have been line breeding for a while.  Look at St. Patricks, Greiner Hall and numerous other kennels that seem to have a stamp on a certain look.  That happens because of years of line breeding.  I spotted every dog at Bucks with Gorn or GH in the pedigree without having a program or knowing anyone.  I was right on EVERY one.  Alvedor's Gorn and GH are both linebred an the same dog for generations. 


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Chris Murphy
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #37 

Chris,

 

I think you're mixing apples with oranges.

 

http://lynx.uio.no/jon/lynx/ngoro-e.htm

 

Excerpt:

 

"We now estimate that the crater lions have lost about 10 percent of their genetic diversity over the past 20 years."

 

As you can see from the above example, inbreeding in the wild doesn't impact as many genes as one might think.

 

"The history of the crater lions may represent the future for many other large vertebrates. Increased human habitation around Africa's national parks has formed virtually impermeable boundaries, and recently many species have become isolated in small populations, making them even more vulnerable to environmental catastrophe. Add to this the effects of close inbreeding, and many small populations may well be caught in a downward spiral."

 

Similar alleles don't have to be genetically related!

 

You can have a gene for black hair pairing to another black haired gene and not be in default, genetically speaking.

 

You don't have to create form through inbreeding/linebreeding, you can do it through judicious outcrossing as well. In a long term breeding project you lose no vitality in the outcross and ultimately wind up with more vigorous progeny. Diversification of genes does not mean losing type!

 

 

 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #38 

I agree with Chris ( Excellent post Chris) I don't know of any breeders inbreeding/linebreeding to the extreme as the studies done on small wild populations. Linebreeding will set type, of course you do need to out cross occasionally to maintain vigor and some genetic diversity. But as Chris stated, linebreeding/inbreeding, does not introduce anything that is not already there to begin with. You simply bring it the surface quicker and that only gives breeders better information for the future of a breeding program. Knowing what faults/health problems exist and then you can move forward with vital information.


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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #39 

Again, we are just going to have to disagree.   I look at things a little different than you.  That article was very highly oppinionated, but there are some facts to be gleaned from it, if you pay attention.  How long where the Lions there before we decided to study them again?  LOL  They figured they lost 10 percent of the genetic diversity when redicing the number of males by 50%.  Sounds like they were prettyclosely related to begin with.  The odds of having a deformity in a human child from an inbreeding situation is only 1 in 10,000.  That is a social no no that we created and was made stronger by the inbreeding of a wealthy and noble family that had a blood disease.  It spread and was very highly publicised.  Many theores were then created that are more recenlty being proven wrong.  I would not recommend inbreeding on dogs with health issues either because of perpetuating them, but healthy sound dogs are more likely to produce healthy sound dogs, whether linebreeding or not.  Everytime you outcross, you are rolling more dice than when line breeding.  Again, this is just my oppinion, but the longer you keep insisting I am wrong, the longer I will refute it!  LOL  I am very adamant about this point because I have seen it and I can spot it from a mile away!    Can't we just agree to disagree at this point?


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Chris Murphy
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #40 

It takes over 20 generations of successive brother sister matings, to achieve a 90+% homogeneous population.

 

Any short term inbreeding/linebreeding will only get you so far!

 

If you're "lucky" you "might" get a similar type initially, but in most instances you are still dealing with many unknowns and you will increase the risks of doubling up on anything truly bad.

 

Inbreeding is not a long term solution for building a strong line of mastiffs!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #41 

There are dogs that have been linebred for many more generations than that!


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Chris Murphy
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #42 

Chris,

 

You stated that there was lots of inbreeding in the wild, but you don't back up the claim.

 

I gave you your example, in fact it was biased against MY position, because it was a closed environment and the animals were forced to inbreed!

 

Even in that scenario they only had a 10% reduction in diversity!

 

In the wild, inbreeding is very infrequent and there is natural selection at work to prevent many generations of it occurring, even when it does happen.

 

The inbreeding depression is well documented and it's not just my personal "opinion".

 

Inbreeding in mastiffs, given all of the problems that mastiffs have had, is not recommended in my view.

 

Short term gains are all that can be achieved.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #43 

Chris,

 

I clearly stated "over 20 generations of brother/sister matings"!

 

There is no mastiff kennel OR any other breed that has been mated that many times in succession!

 

Your mixing up what I'm saying!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #44 

Lab mice have been.  LOL  I am not confusing what you are saying.  I just disagree with your conclusion.  I am not looking for 90%!  I am looking for a level of consistency.  Not a cookie cutter clone or something!  I know there is a difference between line breeding and inbreeding.  I typically do not inbreed, but I sure do get close sometimes.  LOL


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Chris Murphy
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #45 

"There are dogs that have been linebred for many more generations than that!"

 

What did you mean by that?

 

Yes, lab mice ( you've seen my past posts ) have been bred that many times and have lost fertility in the process, until the remaining few were continued in that program. Ultimately, the surviving few were homogeneous and totally reproductively intact . So in theory, it is possible to achieve that goal with other mammals.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #46 

"There are dogs that have been linebred for many more generations than that!"

 

What did you mean by that?

 

Yes, lab mice ( you've seen my past posts ) have been bred that many times and have lost fertility in the process, until the remaining few were continued in that program. Ultimately, the surviving few were homogeneous and totally reproductively intact . So in theory, it is possible to achieve that goal with other mammals.

 

"Consistency" cannot be achieved for long, even in a close inbreeding!

 

 In the lion study I presented, I thought the 10% reduction in diversity after 20 years of inbreeding, would have enlightened you.

 

Consistency of phenotype does NOT have to depend on closely related genotype!

 

Fruit flies in Australia can look the same as fruit flies in Alaska! They don't need to linebreed to look the same!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #47 

OK Steve.  You win.  There is no such thing as a familial resemblence in dogs, people or even fruit flies.  It is just a lot of coincidence. 


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Chris Murphy
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #48 

Chris,

 

Now you're going to the other extreme!

 

There are no absolutes, unless you're talking vodka!

 

I'm stating the data and the research.

 

You can't breed on short term expectations and then when you get something "great" pound your chest!

 

The history of breeders from Hellingly to Havengore are filled with horror stories!

 

There is no perfect method! The breeders who have line bred eventually failed!

 

I'm trying to give a fresh approach to mastiff breeding, which can have a long term positive affect on the breed.

 

It will take cooperative effort and lots of debate, but if things keep going the way things keep going, in time, nothing good will emerge long term and the breeders of mastiffs in 2100 will be back to square one!

 

We need a new approach!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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oldschool

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Reply with quote  #49 
Steve wrote:

The history of breeders from Hellingly to Havengore are filled with horror stories!

There is no perfect method! The breeders who have line bred eventually failed!

I'm trying to give a fresh approach to mastiff breeding, which can have a long term positive affect on the breed.

It will take cooperative effort and lots of debate, but if things keep going the way things keep going, in time, nothing good will emerge long term and the breeders of mastiffs in 2100 will be back to square one!

We need a new approach!


I think the reason so many kennels have "failed" (as Steve puts it) is because breeders lose interest in breeding mastiffs eventually. Sometimes the result is sloppy breeding, sometimes, the result is quitting altogether, sometimes it is simply the death of the breeder, or their physical inability to care for mastiffs, and sometimes it is disgust with all of the political garbage and backstabbing that goes on behind the scenes in the mastiff community. That is what ends bloodlines. And no matter who continues breeding on a given bloodline after the originator quits, the look of the line will inevitably change as the breeders continuing on the line make different choices than the originating breeder would have made. I think it is sad that most great kennels generally only last as long as the originating breeder's desire to maintain them, but hopefully the next crop of aspiring breeders has learned some of what the "old guard" of breeders has spent years learning.


I have no idea where I'm going here other than to say that the reason breeders fail is NOT because they choose a linebreed, linebreed, linebreed, outcross, linebreed, linebreed, linebreed, model of breeding, rather it is that they get burned out or they die ;-). All kennels have their highs and lows when it comes to quality of the dogs they produce. If one is keeping their sights on future generations in a breeding choice, the immediate effect of an out cross, or of the first linebreeding after an outcross might be inconsistent or even poor, but most breeders in it for the long haul take that information and use it to their future advantage in their breeding program, and end up with something even better that what they had a few generations earlier... Now it takes some time to happen, and the mastiff community might look into a brief window of a kennel's existence and say "so and so's bloodline sure has gone to pot" when it is merely an expected lowpoint in a thoughtfully planned breeding program. I have to say that I am more in the camp of Chris and Tamara with my belief on what makes a good breeding program. We have been operating that way for years and we like how it has worked for us.



BTW Steve, you say the breeders who have linebred have failed, are you saying the breeders who haven't linebred are more successful? If so could you give examples, and if not, then what did you mean by this statement?



I believe that having breeders who linebreed and keep close reign on their bloodlines do a great benefit to diversity in the breed by maintaining pockets of dogs who are somewhat separate from the rest of the genepool. That way if a given dog comes to originate an undesirable trait or defect, there it will be a given that there will be some existing bloodlines free of that trait (for example: the genetic mutation that introduced PRA in mastiffs). I think it's good for breeders to play in their own "sandboxes" and only venture out every now and then, and when they do it, they are careful about it and pay attention to what changes when they continue on in their "sandbox" with the new blood. It seems to me to be a very healthy thing for our breed. My thoughts on it all... I think the best thing we can do is breeders is to keep an open mind. Erica mentioned the question of nice dog with bad pedigree vs. bad dog with nice pedigree... While I'd say I'd chose the latter over the former (preferring the option c of nice dog with nice pedigree, of course) but I can't say I'd decide that way without question in every instance. If nice dog with bad pedigree was producing quailty consistetly, and with similar bloodlines to my own, he might be worth the risk, etc. So keeping an open mind is important I think. =)


BTW for those interested in my mom's thoughts on breeding and her reasons for her breeding choices, you can read this article she wrote for the MCOA Journal.



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Jess
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #50 

Hi jess,

Glad to see you here!

 

I remember the article and I also remember when your mom started in mastiffs. You both are a credit to the breed.

 

By now, you must know that I "stir the pot" now and then, but only when I sense the pot needs stirring!

 

It's unfortunate to hear some say to keep an open mind and then back off new views.

 

If what you've said is valid, then why doesn't the death of a kennel owner in other breeds result in similar loses to those breeds?

 

One reason, is that the other dogs breed true and mastiffs don't!

 

If mastiffs don't breed "true" then something is wrong with the breeding programs.

 

The outcrosses and the linebreedings have certainly produced great dogs over the years, but those methods are not being used properly in this posters opinion.

 

If they had been used to their best advantage, we would see much stronger type with less variation, perhaps not across different lines, but at least within the major kennels.

 

My view is not just a kneejerk passing whim. If you look back into 25-30 year old journals, you will see that same view of mine posted years before most breeders took up this thing called "breeding mastiffs".

 

Unfortunately, most people learn from those who came before them. Some don't even do that! Good & bad habits are learned and things usual progress at the same pace as before. Some good dogs emerge and are the talk of the town and then they're linebred for the next 5 generations or more until the next "great" find arrives on the scene. Then the same dance begins anew.

 

Why should the mastiff change if breeding habits remain the same?

 

If mastiffs today are sounder specimens than in the past, as I do believe they are, it's because of science and the NEW DEMANDS THAT SCIENCE MADE ON THE BREEDER'S PRIOR HABITS!

 

Changing certain practices advances the breed and I am talking about change. Not all change is for the better, but as I see it, a clear understanding of a "scientific" outcrossing program, can dramatically change the mastiff's form into a stable type, something which hasn't been accomplished to date!

 

Outcrossing is not something to fear, it should be explored, and dismissing it only resumes the "security of sameness", which never leads anyone or any program to greater achievements!

 

Best regards to mom!

 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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