Register  |   |   |  Calendar  |  Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 3 of 4      Prev   1   2   3   4   Next
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #51 

Informative article:

 

http://www.peruvian-pasos.com/breeding_selection.html


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
LazarusMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,172
Reply with quote  #52 

I agree with all of this.  That article really hit the nail on the head with my views.  I believe it hit on some of Jess' points as well.  It is very well written.  Does this mean that you have changed your oppinion Steve?  It really supports ours.  LOL 

 

Outcrossing and hybridization both decrease the chance that an individual's offspring will be similar to itself. In a breeding program where outcrossing is used generation after generation, outstanding horses may emerge, but they will not be prepotent for type. Uniformity will be very difficult to achieve in a herd of constantly outcrossed horses. Outcrossing is, however, very beneficial and necessary to "refresh" the blood of most breeding programs. Some very successful breeders linebreed, then outcross for one generation, then go back to the family for the next generation. Alternating in this manner can be an excellent way to avoid the pitfalls of constant linebreeding while maintaining a high level of uniformity in an established herd.

As breeding animals, F1 hybrids are not usually able to reliably pass on their outstanding characteristics. Howeverin the Peruvian breed one can find a percentage of hybrids that are surprisingly prepotent, probably because their sires and dams though unrelated had many characteristics in common (i.e. Iike to like). It should be noted that the infusion of more than two strains into a hybrid breeding program will greatly reduce the breeder's ability to predict the characteristic of his produce. It will add any generations to the number required to form a uniform herd. To have optimum success, a hybrid breeder must stay with just two strains and try to maintain close to a 50-50 percentage in all of his animals until his new type is set.

The effects of inbreeding and linebreeding are similar. Their aims are to produce horses that are of a type and which can reliably reproduce their characteristics in their offspring. This occurs quickly, because in linebreeding to a particular ancestor the chance that the ancestor's genetic material will be present in the foal is greatly increased. Family breeding, when practiced properly, can be a powerful tool in "setting" desirable characteristics in a herd


__________________
Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
0
oldschool

Registered:
Posts: 254
Reply with quote  #53 

Steve wrote:

If what you've said is valid, then why doesn't the death of a kennel owner in other breeds result in similar loses to those breeds?

One reason, is that the other dogs breed true and mastiffs don't!

If mastiffs don't breed "true" then something is wrong with the breeding programs.


Steve, the reason mastiffs vary so much in type is because MOST breeders DO NOT consistently line breed. If you look at the pedigrees of most of the dogs in the ring today, you will see a mishmash of bloodlines with very little rhyme or reason. There ARE breeders who are carrying out careful line breeding programs, and they tend to be the breeders with consistency and quality over the years. However when they stop breeding, the void tends to be filled by breeders who have a 3 to 5 year stint in the breed, breeding in "Monkey with Typewriter" fashion (to quote the article you posted above). So no matter how much work goes into building consistency of type in the breed overall, there ends up being a huge variety in the breed due to the sheer number of breeders that breed willy-nilly. You know how fragile consistency is and how hard it is to regain after an outcross, so you can see what the effect of these "Monkey with Typewriter" bloodlines have on our breed as a whole. Throw into the mix that breeders cannot agree on a unified interpretation of the standard and you have our breed today! =)


__________________
Jess
Old School Mastiffs
http://www.oldschoolmastiffs.com/
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #54 
Chris & Jess,

 I don't feel threatened by an article which has alternative breeding methods and that's why I posted it!

The main point of my argument is this excerpt from the article:

"However in the Peruvian breed one can find a percentage of hybrids that are surprisingly prepotent, probably because their sires and dams >>though unrelated<< had many characteristics in common >>(i.e. like to like)<<."
 
Mastiffs have been linebred throughout history and they are still "mongrelized" to some extent!

The standard is generally not adhered to and the breeders, for the most part, just breed to breed ( monkey on a typewriter ).

Outcrossing "like to like" done in a scientific way using several lines, can establish uniformity in time.

Breeding like to like from line A to line B and then to line C will introduce "controlled" diversity, which over time can produce a true "type" which will breed true as well. At the end stage, once type is established, a loose linebreeding of like to like can be done as well.

The issue, is initially reducing the varieties which now plague this breed, without introducing the inherent problems of inbreeding, which has just provided short term fixes in the past.

The standard needs clarification and unification. Judges need to understand what a mastiff should look like. "Graceful" movement should not come before type and size!

Only then can a breeding program be instituted which will be meaningful and secure for certain a strong future for mastiffs.

The combined affect of standard clarification & unification, education and a strict breeding policy ( whether it be outcrossing, or linebreeding ) of LIKE TO LIKE mastiffs under the unified standard, will ultimately create a true race of dogs which will "always" appear as the lion is to the cat!







__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
LazarusMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,172
Reply with quote  #55 

Hey Stve, sorry for the long pause.  We lost all power for about 30 hours here during that storm.  8 inches in 24 hours!!!  Anyway, you quoted a sentence from that article that sums up your point, but you left out the very next sentence which clarifies the previous!   It is also another form of breeding to establish a new line of dogs that I agree with.  It is a little harder than the more conventional continuation, but it is workable so to speak.  The only way to consistently reproduce the same characteristics in a hybrid cross is to do it with two seperate lines that are both linebred!  You must also continue the breeding plan by using only those two lines for several generations to lock in that type!  Then you have your own line and must continue from there in a more conventional way with the dogs you produced!  It is plain and written in the very next sentence that you cannot continually outcross and maintain consistency!

 

the Peruvian breed one can find a percentage of hybrids that are surprisingly prepotent, probably because their sires and dams though unrelated had many characteristics in common (i.e. Iike to like). It should be noted that the infusion of more than two strains into a hybrid breeding program will greatly reduce the breeder's ability to predict the characteristic of his produce.


__________________
Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #56 

Quite correct Chris!

 

My contention, is that with mastiffs, we are already dealing with linebred animals before we even linebreed!

 

Common ancestors usually show up on both sides of the pedigree if you go back far enough. So unlike the horse model, in many cases breeding "like to like" mastiffs of different lines is not really introducing that much diversity.

 

If the get is scrutinized and like to like breedings becomes the norm, you can have your consistency without the need to inbreed.

 

The diversity is due to what Monica and others mentioned, namely using two different types and breeding the two. If that practice stops, you'll get more stable & healthier lines!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #57 

http://www.royalair.org/libreeding.htm

 

Good site to peruse.

 

Excerpt:

 

 "The best outcrosses may not really be outcrosses at all, as two separate families with similar styles & traits are merged together; different names, but maybe the same 'good' genes for good heads are present, for example, in both families."

 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
Monica

Registered:
Posts: 4,089
Reply with quote  #58 

Okay, I hobbled..... I am firmly planted in my wheelchair and the brakes are on...

 

Here goes - Lets say SaLLY sees a "type" that she feels would help her line for example - SALLY wants to add more bone, angle and oh the head... to her current line and she cannot seem to get it by "linebreeding/staying within" so SALLY decides its time to look outside the line.  SALLY could (a) find a dog that is similar in type and look to (lets say she has a dam) her dam but the dog she finds would have a bit larger bone, nice head, topline, angle, etc. and she could breed to similar type, but better quality when she outcrosses in order to enhance her line - so she would be staying as close to her "type" as possible while doing this outcross; or (b) SALLY could go for a totally different "type" than her dam with massive bone, head, angle, etc., which in SALLY'S case might mean selecting a dog that is very true of the OEM "type," which might not be so present in her line.  Maybe SALLY really wants to bring an exteme different type in to mix with her line.  Now she's mixing two different types to achieve her ultimate goal which is bigger bone, nicer head, better angle.  

 

So,  should SALLY stick with her own "type/look" as she outcrosses and trys to enhance what she feels her line is lacking OR should SALLY choose an outcross that is of different type?  Which do you feel in the long run would benefit her breeding program? 

 

And of course there is scenario (c) SALLY could purchase two new dogs of that completely different type and start a new line with that type - but one day SALLY might get curious about what a dog from that strong OEM type and the "newer aged look" if you will - would actually produce if they were mixed. 

 

I know this  is long.  So what if SALLY did the outcross to the extreme different type - and then line bred the mix back in once she got what she wanted and then went type to type .... and so on it goes...

 

 


__________________
Monica
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #59 

Sally is just rationalizing, in an elaborate way, so that she will do what she wanted to do in the first place! 

The hardest thing in being a dedicated breeder, is to be dedicated!

 

Either you are objective and base your breeding on certain objectives, or you just validate your reasons and breed!

 

This breed has suffered, because of too many Sally's!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #60 

Head Expression--Keen, alert, and intelligent. Eyes Dark and of medium size. Ears--V-shaped and carried close to the cheeks, set on wide and high, level with occiput and cheeks, giving a square appearance to the skull; darker in color than the body and medium in size. Skull Large, with a fair amount of wrinkle when alert; broad, with cheeks well developed. Forehead flat. Stop--Moderate. Muzzle--Broad and deep; its length, in comparison with that of the entire head, approximately as 1 is to 3. Lack of foreface with nostrils set on top of muzzle is a reversion to the Bulldog and is very undesirable. A dark muzzle is preferable. Nose--Black, with nostrils large and broad. Flews--Not too pendulous. Bite--Preferably level or slightly undershot. Canine teeth large and set wide apart.

 

http://clubs.akc.org/aba/bully/standard/standard/cover.htm

 

If the bullmastiff standard states 1:3  and the mastiff standard states 1:3 is there an issue??????????

 

Lets face it! The mastiff standard needs clarification!!!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
LazarusMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,172
Reply with quote  #61 

Hi Monica.  Since this could possible affect others in their breeding philosophies, I am going to say this first.  This is how I would handle that particular situation.  Just my oppinion.  Start over. LOL  Just kidding.  If I were looking to do what I believe you are meaning, I would use one other line that is known for consistently producing what you are trying to add.  To do this, it will take time and dedication, but it can be done.  I will use my kennel name as a reference and Toadhall(since she is a friend) as an example.  Now, if she had an established line and several dogs with a consistent look that she wanted to change(which she doesn't at this point), this is how I would advise it.  If she had 4 girls.  Breed all 4 Toadhall girls to 4 Lazarus boys.  Preferably from 3 or 4 different but equal quality males, all linebred from the same stock though.  So know you have 4 different breedings with 8 different dogs from 2 different lines.  From those 4 breedings, keep the best male and female out of each that most closely exhibits what you are looking for.  As they mature, pick the 4 best boys and 4 best girls to create the following pedigree.

 

Toadhall/Lazarus bitch 1

Toadhall/Lazarus bitch 2

Toadhall/Lazarus bitch 3

Toadhall/Lazarus bitch 4

Toadhall/Lazarus male 1

Toadhall/Lazarus male 2

Toadhall/Lazarus male 3

Toadhall/Lazarus male 4

 

                                                                     male 1

                                          1st generation male

                                                                     bitch 1

                  2nd generation male(some consistency)

                                                                      male 2

                                          1st generation female

                                                                     female 2

3rd generation(probably a decent level of consistenty)

                                                                      male 3

                                           1st generation male

                                                                      bitch 3

                  2nd Generation female(some consistency)

                                                                       male 4

                                           1st generation female

                                                                      female 4

                                          

Of course, the crucial part of this pedigree is that the entire last wall of Great Grandparents are all 50% Toadhall and 50% Lazarus.  This type of pedigree can be done with only two bitches, but it will take much more time.  The pedigree above is probably an 8-10 year breeding program and it usually takes at least that long to set a consistent type.  It does not mean that you will not get nice dogs, or even what you are looking for, before that, but it is my oppinion that it will become consistent after the above number of generations.  After that, if you stay within similiar lines or outcross and come back.  It is essentially something that you have created at that point.  That is why I am personally piggy backing off of some other lines and then trying to create a few new ones with the above method.  I have not been around long enough to have created something that is unique to me.  I have some different pedigrees than others, but it will not be consistent for a while.  Until then, I expect to see more pups wich favor each side of the pedigree instead of that blending effect.  I hope that helps explain one of the theories I have adopted anyway.  To linebreed from one particular male is much easier, but more risky.  Depending on the dog in question.  That is more commonly done.  Chris 

                                                   

                                                       

 

 

                                                         

 

                 


__________________
Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
0
Monica

Registered:
Posts: 4,089
Reply with quote  #62 

Thanks Guys - that helps a lot - Chris great explanation and laying it out really helps.  By the way - Sally is not real and just asking hypothetical questions - she's my little imaginary friend....  Keep in mind that little Sally is just learning.   That should make all happy that Sally is not real --- and is learning before endeavoring... Be nice to Sally she's being smart by learning...

 

Chris - the one thing that I might be stuck on and making too much of a big deal about is the type to type or type to different type. 

 

In your scenario - would you be breeding "similar type to similar type" or does you scenario "breed different type to different type?"  Or I could put the question another way - Does your scenario call for "type to type" or would it work either way?  Keeping in mind of course, whether the type is similar or much different that it is an aim at bettering and also a plan which will take time over years.

 

Thanks! 


__________________
Monica
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
0
LazarusMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,172
Reply with quote  #63 

The question you asked was taking into consideration that you had a particular line and you admired another line and you would really like something in the middle best.  Type to type has always got to be followed(as a rule).  It just has a much lower chance of success without linebreeding.  You would have to pick the dogs that most closely resemble what you are trying to acheive.  BTW, that pedigree is not the only way it can be done, just the easiest to explain.  As long as you keep the ratios at 50% and breed type to type, you should have some measure of success over enough time.  Type to type should always be used, as soon as possible.  Obviously, the first breeding will not be, because it is different than yours.  The resulting offspring should not have the exaggerated type of either side or you will have a lower chance of success.  The more or less successful the first generation is really dictates the rate of acheiving a certain look from pups in most litters.  Again, these are all just my oppinions.


__________________
Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
0
Monica

Registered:
Posts: 4,089
Reply with quote  #64 

This is all good stuff.  Thanks so much!!  Thank God I didn't have to do this much research when I was making human babies!!  In fact, a few times, there was no thought involved at all....... YIKES....   Thank God, again, for age, wisdom and maturity (that would be now...).  Actually the kids turned out pretty darn good so maybe with a little luck - "SALLY" will prevail - hey, just yanking your chain Steve... SALLY is napping - she's overtired today....Tee Hee.  Gotta go find those new emoticons....

 

Good thread everyone!


__________________
Monica
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
0
Crossroads

Registered:
Posts: 2,598
Reply with quote  #65 

OK, so here's a question.  I have a boy who's pedigree is all Greiner Hall on the top half and old Greco on the bottom half.  It seems to me like a line bred sire was brought to a line bred dam...is that correct?  Where would be a good place to go from here to say, get a nice female out of him?

 

Sire
Chagrin Grog
Sire
Chagrin Danny Boy
Sire
Greiner Hall Falcon
Sire
Greiner Hall Zechariah
Dam
Greiner Hall Raven Noblehall
Dam
Ch. Greiner Hall Gypsy
Sire
Ch. Greiner Hall Chadwick
Dam
Greiner Hall Isnor
Dam
GH Chagrin Libery Belle
Sire
Ch. Greiner Hall Nehemiah Odin
Sire
Ch. Greiner Hall Chadwick
Dam
Medicine Man Roxanne Of Greco
Dam
Ch. Greiner Hall Gypsy
Sire
Ch. Greiner Hall Chadwick
Dam
Greiner Hall Isnor
Dam
Ashley-Greco Rennainsance Lady
Sire
Ashley Greco Bredwardine
Sire
Ch. Greco's Titan I Did It My Way
Sire
Ch. Greco's Hollesley Rogue
Dam
Greco's Saint Gertrude
Dam
Greco's Saint Jessica II
Sire
Greco's Tristan Hollesley
Dam
Ch. Greco's Sacha Sarele
Dam
Ashley's Greco Sassie
Sire
Greco's Falmore Bonner
Sire
Ch. Falmorehall Fortescue
Dam
Ch. Greco's Sacha Sarele
Dam
Greco's Saint Anna
Sire
Ch. Greco's Hollesley Rogue
Dam
Greco's Saint Theresa


__________________
Jennifer Patterson
Crossroads Mastiffs
http://www.crossroadsmastiffs.com

"Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American GI....one died for your soul, the other died for your freedom"
0
LazarusMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,172
Reply with quote  #66 

That all depends on what you are looking for.  That is a loaded question for me.  Not intentionally I am sure, but still loaded!  LOL  Remember, that when a pedigree looks similiar several generations back, but it has been in the hands of seperate breeders, there are often 2 different types.   Pedigree means a lot, but not as much as the breeder does.  That Greco pedigree has many of the same dogs in the background as a lot of the GH dogs, but the dogs look totally different.  Which side of that pedigree do you like best?  That will probably answer your question.


__________________
Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #67 

Call GH and ask the Napotnik's for their opinion.

 

They know this line well and should be able to guide you "on paper", but I still feel that it is important to use your eyes as the best determinant!

 

Like to like! Providing your boy is correct!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
Crossroads

Registered:
Posts: 2,598
Reply with quote  #68 

I, without a doubt, prefer the Greiner Hall side of the pedigree.  Greiner Hall Egan is my most favorite mastiff of all time.  I had him as my screen saver for a long time and would just stare at him.  My boy is young yet, but I would say he is looking a little more like the Greco side.  He is tall and long and is taking a good little while to fill out.  I think that "slow to mature thing" is Greco right?  Calling the Napotniks isn't a bad idea.  I also have a great relationship with my boy's breeder.  When I'm ready (I mean, when he's ready) I'm sure I'll get lots of advice.

 

Chris,

I didn't mean for it to seem like a loaded question.  You and Steve seem to have a lot of knowledge in this area.  I just thought I would get your opinions.  Your answer was very diplomatic, by the way.


__________________
Jennifer Patterson
Crossroads Mastiffs
http://www.crossroadsmastiffs.com

"Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American GI....one died for your soul, the other died for your freedom"
0
LazarusMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,172
Reply with quote  #69 

Hi Jennifer.  I know you didn't mean to throw me a loaded one.  I just don't like to give advise on which side of a pedigree to go to(at least in public).  It is just too subjective and you always end up hurting one person's feelings to compliment another.   Of course, if it involved a total prick or something....  LOL 


__________________
Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
0
goldleaf

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 8,058
Reply with quote  #70 
Bump
__________________
0
kittykat

Registered:
Posts: 1,145
Reply with quote  #71 

My eyes glazed over and my brain disengaged about half way down the first page of this thread. Perhaps I am hopeless. Not that I intend to become a breeder, but it would be nice to understand where breeders are coming from and what they're aiming for. I'm beginning to think you have to have a small amount of the "rainman" gene to get this. Is there a simpler way for the newbies and pet owners to understand all this?


__________________
Kat
0


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #72 

I think that pedigrees are very important in breeding.  You need to at least look at the past 4-5 generations, and even more importantly, the vertical (siblings) pedigree.  You need to find a breeder that has been in the breed a good 25-30 yrs to help you know the good, the bad, and the ugly of dogs in the pedigrees.  Not all will be so open about the bad and the ugly, so if you find someone that will, don't let them go!  Evaluate the dogs & siblings of dogs in pedigree with regard to conformation, size, type, health, and of course temperament.  I don't particularly place these in any particular order, except temperament is most important to me.  I think that line breeding has its place to maintain type and consistancy.  However, I also think that too much line breeding (or too close) can be too much of a good thing (you get the best and worst traits).  It's a fine balance, and seasoned breeders (not myself) know how to find this balance.  When outcrossing, knowing the dogs in pedigree is probably even MORE important, so that you can attempt to achieve your goals.  You want to try to obviously not double up on faults, and try to improve in areas of weakness.  One of my mentors told me that when you do an outcross, take the pups from that breeding that look most like one line, and breed back to that line in the pedigree, and vice versa to begin a line and be able to maintain consistency. 

0
Monica

Registered:
Posts: 4,089
Reply with quote  #73 

Kat - when I first started reading this stuff, my head would spin and then I would ask questions (this was on another board, I removed myself from) and a select few did not care for my questions or maybe more than a select few, but a select few brutally attacked me for not seeing what they thought was right in front of my face.   Thus I left the board and the attacker(s) don't play here.  Here, I've been able to learn!

 

I was inspired after I started "getting" it - a small bit of it anyway, and it helps too if you PM some of the writers, they can help you more.  The inspiration was that I'd like to breed one day.  This isn't just backyard Tarzan and Jane stuff - let the dogs hang out while the bitch is in heat and whoopee we have pups.  This takes so much thought and study.  It is very stimulating to the mind even when there are disagreements.  Overwhelming at first, but after awhile it all starts to make some sense.

 

I hope others read and maybe they are not inspired to be breeders but to know more about the complexity of what goes into breeding our beloved mastiffs, good mastiffs that will stand the test of time with soundness, temperment, heath, etc. 

 

Great thread - everyone should come play and ask questions!!


__________________
Monica
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
0
goldleaf

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 8,058
Reply with quote  #74 
Bumping to save thread
__________________
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #75 

In the 70's there was no internet, no fax machines, no cell phones, no pictorial pedigrees, no vertical pedigrees, no DNA tests, no frozen, limited general testing, limited number of mastiffs, limited breeder cooperation, limited breeders, limited studs and snail mail!

It's a wonder that the breed turned out 'anything' of merit back then!

Today, we have a whole different world.

We can now follow pictures of most of the antecedents in our pedigrees and we now have a ton of information at our finger tips, which can access "Devine" and other resources, in order to better educate and inform breeders and fanciers alike.

At times more information is better and at other times it can be confusing.

With the explosive increase in popularity of these dogs over the past 30 years, come many setbacks as well. Everything from genetic issues to BYB issues, not to mention puppy mills, has had it's impact on the breed. This impact has created problems in structure and type along with polarizing certain factions within the general breeding community.

Today, when a breeding is planned, it can take months before a final decision is made as to which stud should be used. Pedigrees are studied as though they were Dead Sea Scrolls and then are passed about for group discussions to take place, in order to reduce the odds of a bad roll at the table!

In the end, it still comes down to two dogs and a twisted finger behind one's back!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.


THANK YOU FOR VISITING OUR BOARD!!