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goldleaf

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Hi all,

I currently do not own any brindles, and have heard so much discussion on "correct" color. Can we start a discussion on what makes a brindle correct vs. incorrect? I might want to bring them into my line at some point, and could use the education on this subject. Thanks.


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #2 

 From the standard:

 

"Brindle should have fawn or apricot as a background color which should be completely covered with very dark stripes."

 

The standard does not really specify what the parameters of brindle should be. We see dogs which are "reverse" brindles ( light grounds with only a few "stripes" ) and we see black brindles ( almost totally black with some fawn or apricot stripes peeking through the black ).

 

The standard needs to be updated and clarify the breadth of variations in this color we call brindle!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LEXIMSTF

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Reply with quote  #3 

 

Personally, I think there are many variations of "correct" when it comes to brindling. My understanding is that as long as the dog gives an overall appearance of darkness coupled with obvious stripes, then it is correct. I suspect many of us have our preferences in regards to how much is too much, too little, just right, but I think as long as the stripes are evenly distributed and create that appearence of darkness, you have a correct brindle.


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Reply with quote  #4 

I just think brindles are cool.  LOL

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Monica

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Reply with quote  #5 

I saw a dog recently at a show whom I thought was "nicely put together" - I don't feel educated enough yet to use the word typey... I thought he was nice looking - however he was very fawn with just a few black stripes - very different from anything I have ever, ever seen (almost exotic looking).  The judge put him up...

 

I didn't mind his coloring but it certainly was not "normal" and the rest of him was nice. 

 

Is there a reason why the standard on brindles should be more set?  And if it is now to some degree, I am sure this dog must not have been correct.  Do you think that the judge was unclear because the standard is unclear?

 

 


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #6 

I don't think the judge cared, since the coat color is usually not the most important dynamic in their evaluation process!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #7 

Monica,

What you saw was a "reverse brindle."  Mastiffs have no DQ's for showing, so it is up to the judge to judge the dogs presented to him/her and decide what characteristics and faults are most important.  Personally, I place a lot more emphasis on type and structure than I do cosmetic faults (like coat color - ie. some folks have a big issue w/ some white - I don't).  There are some really fantastic reverse brindles out there.  One that comes to mind is a personal favorite of mine - "Clarence" (Ch. Iron Hills Paint Your Wagon).  He was sire to the famous Butler and also to my late Mimi...and many other great Mastiffs.  He lived to be quite old.  You can find him on the Iron Hills website. 

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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #8 

Do "reverse" brindles tend to pass on the same color, or you you get dark brindles also?


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Reply with quote  #9 

I think it just depends on the genes at hand.  I know that when Clarence was bred to Mimi's dam ("Emma" Skylar's Angel Among Us, CGC), who was a fawn bitch, they produced 3 puppy girls.  2 fawn girls and one very dark fawn brindle (as dark as my Sinatra). 

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Monica

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Reply with quote  #10 

Yep Kristen, that was pretty much the color of the boy at the show with even less stripping tho. 

 

Steve were you meaning that the standard should be revised to tighten or loosen - just make clear what is and what isn't? 

 

I agree Kristen that the coloring - although standard should be set somewhere - is not nearly as important. 


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #11 

The standard needs to incorporate ALL colors of brindle ( i.e. reverse, black brindle, fawn brindle, apricot brindle and fawn/apricot brindle etc. )


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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CapeWind

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Reply with quote  #12 

"Brindle should have fawn or apricot as a background color which should be completely covered with very dark stripes."

 

Hi Jan, the written standard above is subject to interputation. In my opinion, a reverse brindle is absolutely incorrect. The standard says "should be completely covered with very dark stripes." I personally would not buy, breed to, or keep a brindle who wasn't 60 - 75% black. I have also had a couple of "completely" black puppies, and they are just as incorrect as the reserve brindles.

 

I have seen some gorgeous (as in structure) Mastiffs, but I would not want to muddy my gene pool with the reverse brindle coloring. Fawns are beautiful, but my favorites are most definately dark brindles and apricots.

 

****

Hey Kristen, in my opinion, Sinnie's color is ideal:-)

 


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KingsCourt

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Reply with quote  #13 
What do you all think of Deacons brindle set?


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CapeWind

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Reply with quote  #14 

<< The standard needs to incorporate ALL colors of brindle ( i.e. reverse, black brindle, fawn brindle, apricot brindle and fawn/apricot brindle etc. ) >>

 

Hi Steve,

 

I respectfully disagree. I put this in the same catagory of the revision that stated scissor bite preferred. Opens up a big ole can of worms.

 


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #15 

The Old English standard states:

 

"Apricot-fawn, silver-fawn, fawn or dark fawn brindle."


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #16 

Anthony -I see your dog as looking beautiful.  What I find most stricking is how the stripping is not abrupt but has a brushed look to it.  Beautiful and soft - definitely warms the eye!


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Monica
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Reply with quote  #17 

I will just stick with my story that brindles are cool.    Love those apricots too. 

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #18 

Anthony,

You don't need a telescope from Mt. Palomar to see that this dog is superb in almost every respect! 

 

I'd be proud to own him!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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CapeWind

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Reply with quote  #19 

Hi Steve,

 

Unfortunately, we have many issues in this breed with people not knowing if they have a fawn or an apricot as it is. I would personally like to see registrations state "fawn brindle", or "apricot brindle", instead of *just* brindle, BUT to even make that change would be like opening Pandora's Box. I definately do not support adding "reverse brindle" or "black brindle" .. I *do* breed for the "blacker" brindles, aka wanting to see a dog 60-75% black, with clearly marked stripes, but that is because of my interputation of the presently written breed standard.


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LEXIMSTF

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Reply with quote  #20 

I agree with Kristen, brindles are definitely cool!

 

Here is a picture of one of my brindles, Miss Vivien Stinkypants at 11 months.

 



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Reply with quote  #21 

Erica,

You already know I love her.  But I did not know you called her Stinkpants.  She and Bling have that in common - Scott has called her "StinkyWiggle" since she was a baby.  What's a girl to do w/ such name calling?

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LEXIMSTF

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Reply with quote  #22 

Thanks but oh yes, she is a little Stinky Jones alright! As I am sure the case is with your Stinkywiggle, Vivien adores all her naughty nicknames!  


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Reply with quote  #23 

Bling refers to that as her "scent" rather than "stink."  LOL  Bling loves all of her nicknames too....I still remember Viv as an itty bitty baby at Bucks last year.  She's grown a little.  She is really fantastic. 

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giselle

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Reply with quote  #24 
Here's my girl. About half the people call her a reverse and the other half say she's not a reverse. Her color didn't seem to hurt her in the show ring though, in fact, for all breed judges I think it helped.




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LEXIMSTF

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Reply with quote  #25 

Ahh, there is Cider!  She is so pretty! 

 

Personally, I would NOT classify her as reverse. While I do think she is lighter than the standard ideal, I would love to own one just like her. I find that color/pattern so appealing.

 

As far as showing one her color, I can see why it would help. More light solid makes it easier on the eye to see elements of structure, in other words, less work!


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