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Monica

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Reply with quote  #26 

I tend to like the lighter colored brindles as well.  That might be because my first encounter ever with a mastiff, or should I say two mastiffs and their litter, was 20 years ago in a friend's house.  I guess he was a back-yard breeder.  He had these two enormous mastiffs - tall, long snouts and black with just a tad of apricot coming thru.  They just looked at me and the other friend while we were there - very nerve racking... since then, I've had this "thing" - when I see the lighter brindles they don't hit that trigger.... But I once owned a totally black fila/mastiff rescue - so go figure.  I think if I ever owned a brindle I would shoot for a bit lighter and I really like the brushed look if they are darker.


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #27 

Erica,

 

There is no "standard ideal"!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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CapeWind

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Reply with quote  #28 
Hi Steve, I disagree. The only thing open for debate is how people interpurt the written breed standard. The standard doesn't say a fawn or apricot dog with a few stripes. It says COMPLETELY COVERED with very dark stripes.
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Geri MacDonald
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #29 

Geri,

 

Define "completely covered"?

 

Does that mean totally blackened out, partially blackened out, or stripes all over the body?

 

The OEM standard doesn't say even that!

 

In all due respect, I believe that you are using your own subjective interpretation!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #30 

Geri, I hope its not inappropriate for me to ask.... this is for me for educational purposes - will you post a picture of a brindle that you feel upholds the standard with regard to brindle coloring.  I'd just like to have a visual as I read this thread further.

Thanks.


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CapeWind

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Reply with quote  #31 

Hi Steve,

 

On no, I agree I like the darker brindle coloring, but the AKC standard states completely covered .. My interputation of that statement would be atleast 51% covered in dark stripes. More black stripes then seeing the fawn or apricot base.


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LEXIMSTF

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Reply with quote  #32 

Hello Steve,

 

I'm sorry that you feel that way. I understand this part of the standard quite well in regards to what is ideal. The interpretation is a solid colored dog that is thoroughly covered in very dark stripes, over it's entire body. Clear to me!  

 

 


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PrayerboxMastiff

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Reply with quote  #33 
Hi everyone I am new to the message board brindle mastiffs have always been my favorite. Regardless of thier brindling. I like the fawns also but brindles have always been my favorite. http://www.prayerboxmastiffs.com Thanks for all your imput its awesome to see just how people feel about mastiffs. Candi
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CapeWind

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Reply with quote  #34 

Hi Monica,

 

Let me see what I can find on this pc (my desk top friend) but to go over some of the dogs shown so far (only addressing color and not other qualities) ..

 

Deacon I consider on the lighter side. To use percentages, he is 45-50% covered in dark stripes. Little lighter then I want to see

 

Vivien I would call about 65% covered in stripes, and my idea of the ideal coloration.

 

Cider I would call 35-40% covered in stripes. Too light to me.

 

Will look through my files when I get off the phone.

 

 


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Monica

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Reply with quote  #35 
Thanks Geri,  I will check those babies out and when you get a chance to post a pic - that would be great.
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Monica
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CapeWind

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Reply with quote  #36 

Hi Monica,

 

Off the phone so starting to look for pictures.

 

This first dog doesn't show the coloring well, but he is TOO dark. The pictures show him at 4 and 7 months (he is only 7.5 months old now). He will get more stripes as he gets older, but will be atleast 85% black.



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CapeWind

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Reply with quote  #37 

Hi Monica,

 

Here's a dog that I feel has ideal coloration, BUT, I can't find any good pictures showing her true coloration. These are all of the same dog. I'm including one picture that really doesn't show her at all, but it shows her coloring. She's about 70% covered.



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CapeWind

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Reply with quote  #38 

All the pics I am finding do not show the dogs color accurately (making most of them look totally black), so this is the last picture for now. This guy is just a baby.



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Reply with quote  #39 

Love this miss Vivien!!!!

 

Olga

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nancyw

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Reply with quote  #40 

This is my Reba.  I love her coloring.  She shines in the sunlight. Out of my last litter I kept a girl that is what you are calling a reverse brindle.  I will try to get a good picture of her today.  BTW, I was always told there is not such thing as a reverse brindle, that it is jus light or dark brindle.

 

Nancy



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CapeWind

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Reply with quote  #41 
Hi Nancy, I love her coloring!
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Nicci

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Reply with quote  #42 

That would be an apricot brindle right?


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #43 

Erica,

 

No need for you to feel sorry that I feel that way....LOL

 

The OEM standard states:

 

"Apricot-fawn, silver-fawn, fawn or dark fawn brindle."

 

What do you think they meant by "fawn "OR" dark fawn brindle"?

 

The AKC standard states: " completely covered " in very dark stripes.

 

"completely covered",  does not have any "percentage" attached to it, nor does it contradict the OEM standard for brindle.

 

You could "completely cover" your car in polka dots, but it doesn't mean that you MUST have 30%-40%-50%-60%-70%-80% or 90% polka dots for it to be considered "completely covered"!

 

 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LEXIMSTF

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Reply with quote  #44 

Hi Steve,

 

It seems that while the authors of the standard might have selected some seemingly ambiguous phrases, I am sure they knew precisely what they were trying to say. Also, the meaning of words can change over time thus allowing for a different interpretation as the years wear on. Personally, I think the “dark” in “dark fawn brindle” is referring to the overall look of the dog, a dark dog, fawn in base, heavily striped. It is very similar to what the AKC standard means with completely covered.

 

It is my feeling -- based on interpretation of the written standard, discussion amongst fanciers and study of actual dogs, past and present – that it is evident that there are many variations of permissible coat shades in any given color. The brindle pattern is not unique in that sense. There are variations, but I believe the standard calls for stripes all over the body of the dog and the overall impression should be dark. Let us not forget what gave a brindle its working advantage through history, the ability to conceal itself in the darkness. 

 

Would you prefer the standard read like a mechanical manual?

 


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Monica

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Reply with quote  #45 

Thanks Geri for putting up all those pics.  It amazing how the coloring (oh, forgot if your dog is a he or she...sorry) on your dog changes to the eye with the different lighting.  Very nice looking dog.  I also like the really dark (too dark as you put it) guy.  But I was very in love with my all black fila/mastiff rescue - he used to shine in the sun.... That's off brindle topic tho.

 

Someone posted that there really isn't a "reverse brindle" just a lighter and a darker - maybe that should be written in the standard - it makes sense after seeing the variations of pictures that everyone has posted.

 

It good to see all the pics and different color opinions.  Very nice doggies out there!! 


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Monica
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LEXIMSTF

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Reply with quote  #46 

Hi Monica,

 

Reverse is a term adopted to describe a very light brindle. Conversely, black is a descriptor for a very dark brindle. Technically, Nancy is right, there is no such thing as a "reverse" brindle according to the Mastiff standard, but neither is there mention of dark or light either. It is brindle.

 

As a matter of point, fawn brindle and apricot brindle are not recognized as official terms either in the AKC standard. According the quotes from Steve O., the OEMC standard seems to lump apricot in with fawn and mentions brindle as "dark fawn brindle."

 

I see nothing wrong with using such adjectives (reverse, black, light, dark, apricot, etc.) to help illustrate a point as long as those involved recognize they are not part of the standard.


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Erica Tortorella
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #47 

Erica,

 

You failed to mention the "fawn" before the "dark fawn brindle" in the OEM standard!

 

It doesn't matter what "our" personal preferences are. I prefer a darker brindle as well, so what?

 

The standard needs to be as clear as possible, it's not a finished document.

 

 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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TamK

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Reply with quote  #48 
If the standard is indeed a "unfinished document" then coloring should be the last consideration in our breed.
I agree with Erica that there are many variation and there is nothing wrong with terms to describe the variations.  I believe the original intent on the brindle coloring was the darker brindle.


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LEXIMSTF

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Reply with quote  #49 

Hi Steve,

 

I did not forget. I think the "fawn" that preceeds the "dark fawn brindle" is part of the descriptions of solid colors, not involved with the brindle variety: Apricot-fawn (1) Silver-fawn (2) Fawn (3) Dark Fawn Brindle (4)

 

Since apricot, silver and fawn are all variations of solid colors (all fawn), the dark fawn brindle refers to any shade of fawn with dark brindling. That is my interpretation.

 

 

 

 

 


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Erica Tortorella
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #50 
I wonder if the standard will have changes made to it in the near future.  Is there anything in the works?

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