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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #1 

It was going to come up sooner or later, so it just might as well be discussed!

What say you?


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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NancyE

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Reply with quote  #2 

Angie, This topic cannot be discussed civily on the other board..

But honestly I don't see why it can't on this board. 


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #3 

Angie,

 

I'm not starting wars!

 

I am attempting to discuss a REAL issue which exists in the present day mastiff community!

 

If we make believe there is no issue we fool only ourselves.

 

It is my hope, that an objective discussion can begin without venom coming from either side!

 

This is a long standing issue and both sides have valid points!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #4 

Angie,

 

There are new people here who have no clue about the Deer Run issues!

 

I sincerely hope that a sensible intercourse of ideas and opinions can be discussed, without harmful consequences.

 

That's what forums should be about! Don't you think?

 

BTW, I joined MPI and I'm not a member of MP. I don't take sides!

 

Being a member enables me to hear their views, that way I don't have to assume or fabricate what I "think" they are discussing!

 

 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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TamK

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Reply with quote  #5 
Steve,
I can understand discussing the issues with the Deer Run Kennel. But there is no "vs" between lines as far as I am concerned. My mastiffs with Deer Run do not fight with my mastiffs that don't have Deer Run so why should we?
Have a great holiday weekend everyone!


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Tami
Skamania Mastiffs
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Reply with quote  #6 

Steve, you know I respect you and ALWAYS appreciate your advise, but PLEASE let's not go through this AGAIN. I STILL don't fully understand the difference, but am SO over it.

 

PS: Don't be mad at me!!!! LOL

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #7 

I'm happy for you personally that you don't have any issues about this issue!

 

But how can you not fully understand the issue and yet be over it???

 

Unfortunately, there are still those who can't be over it!

 

We don't have to have a battle to express opposing views!

 

This thread was started to OPEN a discourse into those views and to serve as a vent for those who feel that they can't discuss this issue elsewhere.

 

Should this issue only be discussed at MP, or behind "closed doors"?

 

What say you?


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #8 

I started the thread because of the many questions asked of me in e-mails.

 

Believe it or not, there are people out there that actually ask these things!

 

I felt that a thread should be here, so that if anyone had a question about DR or DRF, it could be OPENLY addressed.

 

Why would you want to discuss this ONLY by private e-mail?


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #9 

Angie,

 

What happened on the other forum was not my doing. If you followed the epigenesis of the craziness which went on there you would know that!

 

I ALWAYS responded to questions asked of me and yes, I always ask questions which may be sensitive to some, but still need to be asked nonetheless!

 

I don't avoid topics.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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KingsCourt

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Reply with quote  #10 
Mr Oifer,
Sir here is my perspective, the idea of turmoil within the mastiff community is somewhat of an overkill in my opinion. In any type of discussion of opinions there are always radical individuals that try too become the voice of an entire community. Yet I think based on my discussions with several breeders and mastiff enthusiast there is truely no REAL issue or battle. In my opinion there are simply dogs that do or do not have DR behind them in there pedigree's.Does that mean they are more quality of a dog certainely not. I think that where the distinction comes through is that with the nonDR community there are far fewer breeders that tend to breed on dogs that are bred off of a smaller pool of bloodlines. Then those are bred rather close, the results are a consistent look and style of mastiff. This does not mean they are bigger more bone better heads etc. just seems that it stays more consistent.

I for one have just vistited one of the finest breeders in the world her dogs have pedigree's of quite of a variety yet she breeds them to the best of her ability and the result is a consistent look and a magnificent mastiff in my opinion. Has nothing to do with DR or noDR simply very well bred dogs! There are many other examples with breeders who breed dogs with DR in there pedigree's.

Another trend is that sometimes people breed to dogs with noDR most of the time a pretty line bred dog and mix it into the bloodlines the result the first couple generations is usually the best of both worlds. SO the take home point in this long reply is that, I really feel there is no vs. like Tami said, or no battle of bloodlines, simply dogs with and without that kenel name in there pedigree. I know it is hard to get a true grasp on the situation if all you see is a few heated individuals, but as for me this is my story. Hope it helps.............

Regards,
Anthony



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Anthony Sanchez
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #11 

Hi Steve, this is a volitile subject for some, but I will try to form a reasonable response.  It is really not a VS issue like Tami said.  It is not even a difference in ideals as you can see that many different breeders here have dogs of a similiar type.  There does seem to be a more consistent level of that certain "look" they prefer in the DRF community, but that is to be expected because it is a much smaller group that works very closely together.  Within individual kennels, there are some that consistently produce the same "look" of dogs as the DRF community.  With that understood, we must see where the anamosity comes from.  That comes not from a difference in ideal type, but in how both groups look to achieve it.  That is really it.  DR is known to have brought in outside influences into the breed.  The DR community is either fine with that, or even feels it may have brought in some things that were beneficial.  The DRF community does not like that and feels it brought in some things that were bad.  The really sad thing about this whole mess is the fact that both sides are at least partially right and they both want to improve the breed.   As you know with all groups of people, the "Radicals" always get the most attention, but are generally the minority in any group.  The Radical people are the ones that keep this debate going or make it look as though it is a  "VS" scenario.  In all honest, the majority on both sides respect each other and get along fine with each other.  Probably half the DRF community has DR and DRF dogs!!!  Much of the DR community has a large % of DRF dogs in their pedigrees!!!  It is really only being debated by a few.  Most have realized that there is nothing to be gained from arguing about it.  It is simply two groups of people that are trying to acheive the same goals in a different way!  It is a bit touchy because some of the radicals on one side say things like, "I would never touch that dog because it has DR" instead of simply saying "I want to breed to dog X."  One the other side you have people saying, "They think our dogs are genetic freaks and they are the ones with the inbred dogs!"  Instead of "I want to use dog X".  Most people in the world are, as a whole, good and tolerant people.  We just give more credit to the radicals than the majority because we just can't keep ourselves from not reading what they write and trying to find out what was said by who, etc.  It is very easy to get sucked in.  That is why I will not go to many sites anymore.  I used to try to defend my positions, but some will not accept that fact that both sides have valid arguments.  That is why some on both sides are so adamant about it.  They are both right!!!  That is my interpretation of the issue anyway.  I know several people on both sides and I have been on both sides.


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Chris Murphy
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KingsCourt

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Reply with quote  #12 
LOL well said Chris!!!!!!!!!!!

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Anthony Sanchez
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #13 

That is almost hillarious!!!  Anthony, we both posted at 9:40 and said much of the same thing.  LOL My pc hung up when I pushed the post message button.  I bet it is because we were posting at the same time.  LOL


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Chris Murphy
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #14 

How do you feel about the term "clean" being used when referring to DRF stock?


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Crossroads

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Reply with quote  #15 

I think you both said it very well!! 

 

I think it is very important for people new to the breed to research all sides of every issue, especially this one.  Like you said, the radicals have the loudest voices, and it would be a terrible shame if they were the only ones being heard.  I'm glad to see you both sharing your opinions in such a fair and articulate way.  For those of us still learning that is very helpful.

 

I LOVE THIS BOARD!!!!


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Jennifer Patterson
Crossroads Mastiffs
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Nicci

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Reply with quote  #16 

This is the best info I have read on DR/DRF.  Being that I have a serious interest in this issue due to Cooper's pedigree I am very glad to see a calm,serious, rational disscussion.  Being that this can be a very touchy subject it's difficult to get info on this without raising some people hackles. 

 

Thanks ya'll


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Nicci
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KingsCourt

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Reply with quote  #17 
Clean can truely be taken in a derogatory way, when I first came into the commutiy that was thrown around pretty loosely, but I have recently seen folks have refrained from using the term. Bottom line it is only a "term" to identify with or without DR, nothing else. But like many other terms made to distinguish this one can truely be taken out of context, so why use it!

Anthony


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Anthony Sanchez
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #18 
To me it is just a word. If you can't get past a word, then you are obviously not going to be able to get past the rational behind the difference.  I try to use DRF when here because some are sensitive to it, but it really seems a childish thing to worry about to me.  I would hate to think that I would get attacked if I said the word here.  I don't think I would either.  Most people are more moderate here(and well adjusted!), so I doubt that is will be an issue.  I have DR dogs and clean dogs.  I use the term out of habit when refering to mine.  Let's see if anyone yells at me for saying it.  LOL
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Chris Murphy
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PrayerboxMastiff

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Reply with quote  #19 
Tami K. I loved what you said about your mastiffs with out Deer Run dont fight with the Deer Run ones that was good. I believe my very own opinions some very nice mastiffs came from Deer Run lines and have made some of the great mastiffs we have today it does not make them any less of a mastiff then the ones who dont have Deer Run. I believe as breeders we strive to do the very best or should do the very best by the breed and make the right choices today by the breed. Deer Run or not there are some Amazing mastiffs out there. This was great Tami got a chuckle out of me!!! Thanks Candi
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #20 

Okay, I am the newbie who reads all the radical "crap" and wonders "what in the hell is this person so upset about."  "My God, is the earth going to blow up..."  I experienced this for quite sometime on another board without knowing what in the heck I was even reading about - other than flaming arguments and mostly accussations. 

 

I will take some of Steve's heat.  I asked and wanted to know - he advised me, as a wise and kind man, to "relax" sit back and learn - you don't need to learn it all at once, don't push - take your time....  I am an urgent type of gal.  Once I decide to learn about someting, I go full force.  I am sure he made that this thread on his own accord but I was one who emailed and said - can you help me - I just don't get it.  His reply was to relax....

 

All I wanted to know was - "what is the big deal."  Why are people pounding on their keyboards so viciously over this DRF and DR topic that I know nothing about. 

 

I just wanted information so I understood how the terms that some use even came about. 

 

Thank you all on this thread, and thank you Steve for putting yourself out there and starting it..no one asked that of you and I truly do believe you have the betterment of the breed in your heart - we cannot accomplish that with yelling and screaming - Thank you all  for your dignity and grace as you posted.  I still don't' totally know what pedigrees are what and I would like to know... Anthony and Chris if the dogs you have posted are DRF - they are spectacular - I'd like to learn more about them.   TamK - and others with DR and DRF - your dogs are spectacular - I have seen more beautiful dogs on this board in the last week than ever before - and more than just the names mentioned - there have been so many dogs posted here that are truly magnificent - who's pedigress honestly I have not had time to research. 

 

As a newbie, I didn't want to be part of the battle, take sides or even uderstand the battles that plague some - I just wanted to know more about the different pedigrees.  Now I can do some research.

 

I truly thank all that took the time to respond to this thread.  It is educational and I am glad it was discussed in a way where knowledge can be passed on.  Thank you. 


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Monica
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #21 

Hi Monica.  All of the dogs I have posted(and I think Anthony) have been our DRF dogs.  Some of the dogs I used for examples were DR and some were DRF.  Thank you for the compliments.  Since you liked the pics, I will give you another one.  This is the male I just used.  His father is from a half brother/sister breeding with Forefoot Prince Igor of Bredwardine.  His mother is loosely linebred Farnaby with some Gildasan outcross.  I wish I had a better picture where his legs weren't tucked under him, but this is all I have.  He was born in the 80's, so they did not have all the tests we do know, but he was hip scored and did well(scored 13 I believe).  I do have a video of him and he looks much better there.  LOL  I hope you enjoy.  BTW, I will also put a rendering of Igor to look at. 



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Chris Murphy
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Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
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Reply with quote  #22 

I sincerely apologize if I offended anyone.

 

That being said, Steve you are a trip!!! "What say you"!!!!! What could I say after that!!!!! Friends I hope? 

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #23 

Debbie,

 

Never be afraid to speak your mind in this forum. Right, wrong, or indifferent, it doesn't matter, just as long as clarification emerges from the original premise!

 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #24 

Thanks Steve, I don't what I would do without these forums

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Nicci

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Reply with quote  #25 

OK I have a question for the DRF folks.  Could you please address some of the comments made about testing in the community.  Or as they are saying the lack of testing and that DRF doesn't care about health problems so much as pedigree. 

 

And HEY HEY... these are not my statments...don't shoot the asker...LOL. 


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Nicci
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