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Crossroads

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Reply with quote  #26 

Chris,

 

OMG!!  He is too beautiful!!  I am so jealous that you were able to use him.  Which female did you breed him to?  Did you use him just once?  Do you know for sure that your bitch is pregnant?  When I saw him I started drooling a little bit.  haha


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Jennifer Patterson
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NancyE

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Reply with quote  #27 

Nicci, the person(s) who is/are making those claims are the radicals who are loudly trying to push their opinion on everyone else, at any cost.

 

I don't understand the concept of one "reputable" breeder trying with all his or her might to discredit or do so much damage to another breeder or their lines.  - and I'm not just talking about one person.  When in fact usually the persons casting the stones are far from living up to the examples they are accusing others of failing.

 

Take your own Cooper for example. He is from those very lines some people would have everyone believe are bad, yet he passed all of his testing. Take my own litter for example. All the cries about PPM on the other forum; I took my whole litter to my vet to be checked for PPM, because a girl who was interested in one of my puppies succumed to all of the panic mongering. BTW, All of my babies' eyes were clear of PPM - at 6 and 71/2 weeks.

And just briefly here, what is the concern with PPM? (In mild cases you cannot tell by the naked eye that the dog has PPM) In severe cases the dog may go blind. All of my babies' eyes were clear and bright, and I had no concerns whatsoever about their vision. Their whelping box was in the front room (lots of windows = light) and they would watch me walking around in the living room across the house - which is dark even during the day. The puppies would follow by sight a slinking cat in the high grass in the empty lot across the street. 

But there are people who would have everyone believe all GH dogs have problems with PPM... and who are they, anyway? Why would anyone pay so much heed to someone who swears, calls people names, makes racist comments and even sexual remarks on a public forum for crying out loud.

 

 And do any of the people who are making such a ruckas about other breeders do the very health checks they are crying about? If you asked these people point blank how many dogs HE or SHE has taken in to be CERFed or OFAd or any of the other tests, would you get an answer?

 

Go to OFA and just do a quick search on some of the kennel names. 

 

 I don't understand the venom and I don't understand why people get drawn into the nastiness and blindly believe what other people say without doing their own research; (it's said loud enough and often enough so therefore it must be true!)  but for me and mine all I can do is do the best I can with what I've got. Researching pedigrees, and performing the health testing on my own dogs. Meanwhile I try to stay away from the ugliness that can be found at some places on the internet.

 


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NancyE

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Reply with quote  #28 

Oh. and just for the record Kara is not DRF. She goes back to Wycliff 14 times in her 7 gen pedigree. Or does she?


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Nicci

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Reply with quote  #29 
Thank you very much Nancy.  I understand where you are coming from and I apprieciate you anwering honestly.  I couldn't understand the big fuss with all of this my self and the generalizations people come too about certain lines and DRF in general.  But I figured that if my boy didn't have any of these problems that certain folks were ranting about that more of his "kind" wouldn't either.  It gets hard when you are new trying to figure out who's telling the truth about stuff and who just has a personal grudge against who.  I guess it's just something that you learn with time.  Patience is something I need to work on in a big way...lol.
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #30 

Hallelujah!  Houston - we have lift off!!  Thanks everyone.  Chris - thanks for sharing and the pic you posted is wonderful - now did you say "from the 80's" as in that boy's semen has been frozen for a long time?  Just making sure I read that correctly.  Very much looking forward to having time to check out pedigrees and pics. 

 


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Reply with quote  #31 
Steve, which Angie are you talking to? I see no Angie on this thread up until right now. Just curious because that's my name too.
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #32 

Hi Monica and thanks.  Yes, you heard correctly.  The dog was born in the late 80's and frozen in the early 90's.  It has been frozen for a while.  He was tested which is surprising because he was born overseas and that is not as common elsewhere.  Nicci asked if there was any truth to the testing rumors about the DRF lines.  Yes, there is some truth to it and no there is not.  Greiner Hall has been breeding for a very long time.  Certainly sice before testing was the mainstream.  They have had their own line for a long time and knows what they are producing, so they do not feel the need for it.  The facts are that when their dogs are sold to people that do decide to test them, they generally come back with few surprises.  I am sure(and know) that over this many generations, there has been some things pop up from time to time, but as a rule, they are very sound and healthy dogs.  I have tested some of my dogs from their lines to shut people up, but it doesn't work.  Some people just like to play games.  As an example, I used a male out of Erebor's Ulysses and a Gorn daughter.  He was bred to a bitch out of a Gorn son.  According to a certain "radical" she would most certainly have PPM because of doubling on Gorn and then adding Ulysses, which he says is even worse.  LOL  She was recently cerf'd at the show where she finished her championship.  Not only where they good and clear, the examiner went on, without prompting, to say that she has very clear and especially good eyes.  Her brother had his eyes checked, but the vet is not certified through cerf and he is just a pet, but they are fine too.  There is only one girl that has not been checked in that litter and I am sure she is fine as well.  Gracie has her heart and patellas done.  She is two now, so she will have her hips done as well.  I forsee no problems there either.  She has done exceptionally well in the ring and moves well.  My current stud dog is young, but prelimmed good with OFA, etc.  Some then said that the dogs must be tested before 8 weeks old.  Then when some people did that, some started claiming that 8 weeks wasn't young enough!!!  All dogs are born with pupillary membranes over the eyes.  It is only PPM(PERSISTANT Pupillary Membrane when it persists and doesn't go away!!!  It is just some people with an axe to grind for the most part.  It does happen in the DRF community just like the DR community though!!!  If there was not so much deception going on, it would be great to be able to talk about issues when they do arise.  Unfortunately, if a problem was brought up in some forums, that one ounce of truth would results in a pound of lies and exagerations.   I have a dog with PPM and I tell everyone about it.  I was persecuted for that by the same people.  The funny thing is that I bred him once and 1 puppy in 9 ever had it and it went away in that puppy.  Facts are facts, fluffies, excessive white, PPM, etc are problems affecting mastiffs.  They are not exclusive to DR or DRF.  Some people in the DRF community do believe that those faults are more common in the DR community because of Tobin's antics, and they may be right.  Does that outweigh the benefits???  You be the judge.  The fact is that we both want the same thing.  Better mastiffs.  DR radicals have and will always say the DRF lines are short and have problems from being inbred.  The DRF radicals will always say your dogs are Daney and have problems from Tobin's crosses.  LOL  Does it really matter?  We all think we are doing the best we can to produce the best dogs we can, so we are all adamant about our positions.  Passion is a good thing.  We just have to be accepting of people with differing approaches to the same problems.  Sorry to ramble.  It's all petty and vain stuff to argue about.  I think that is about all I have to say about the petty stuff.  Let's get back to mastiffs. 


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Chris Murphy
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #33 

Hi Jennifer.  I used to sperm on Rosie.  That is the mother of the Briarcreeks Sampson the Great.  Hopefully it has taken.  It is too early to say for certain, but she definately has some booby development going on.  She is a VERY wide girl, so it is really hard to tell.  She is about 33 days now I believe.  I will keep you guys posted and thanks for the interest.  I do have 2 more breeding doses left. 


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Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #34 

Angie,

Well then the other "Angie" must have deleted her posts!

 

Either that, or I'm responding to hallucinations!....LOL


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #35 
He was responding to me but I didnt want to clutter up this board with nonsence of me and Steve not seeing eye to eye on this subject and Chris and Anthony explained everything perfect
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #36 
I understand there is a video of Gorn that can be previewed, but I cannot seem to find a link for it.. Can anyone help? 
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Monica
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Nicci

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Reply with quote  #37 

Monica, I could have sworn there was a video of Gorn on Old School Mastiffs website but I can't find it now.  I guess you could contact them and ask about it.   


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Nicci
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #38 
Here's the link:  http://oldschoolmastiffs.com/video/


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Monica

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Reply with quote  #39 
Thanks Nicci and Jann - I did a search last night and got an oldschool site but couldn't find the video... probably user error   Anyway, got it and watched it - what a beautiful boy and the movement!! 
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #40 
After seeing this great dog, there should be no controversy left!


http://www.southportmastiffs.com/sherman2.html

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #41 
I couldn't agree with you more Steve!  Terrific dog.



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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #42 

Does anyone know when the epiphany occurred at GH?

 

I see that GH Paeder of Mylar is out of DR Ungar of GH who was out of DR Ivan X DR Tessil.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #43 
Bump
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #44 
Bumping to save topic
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #45 
The Deer Run issue and the Deer Run Free issue needs clarification.

One argument, is that Deer Run allegedly used a Saint, or a Dane in their breeding program.

Saints and danes were used way before Deer Run in the past as well, as were other crosses, most notably the bullmastiff.

In fact, the present day mastiff is in truth a bullmastiff!

Yes! A bullmastiff! ( not to mention the bloodhound, bordeaux, saint etc. )

Even the Deer Run Free mastiffs still have the same blood from breeds, that they are complaining about, which are also in Deer Run dogs!

Ironic?.............What else is new!

Havengore, Withybush were founded on guess what?......YEP! The bullmastiff and the Saint!

Hellingly dogs were freer than most of the bullmastiff strain, but eventually even that line mixed with the other mastiffs out there and they all blended in time! Mr. Oliver of Hellingly sold out stock to Altnacraig and the mixes kept mixing.

Dogs like "Cleveland Leopold" and "Cleveland Monarch" bred by Mr. Cook, came from Saint blood ( Lady Marton...a smooth coated saint ) and "Stapleford's Pedro" was a bullmastiff. Guess which dog has them a few generations behind in it's pedigree?

Bill of Havengore, that's who!

There were dozens of unregistered mastiffs/bullmastiffs used in the early part of the 20th century!

In reality, our present mastiff is a cocktail of prior crosses throughout the last 100 years!

So if Tobin used a Saint, or a dane in some experiment............SO WHAT?

At this point in time, it's blended back into the gene pool and whether you own a Deer Run dog, or a Deer Run Free dog, you STILL own a COCKTAIL!

Dogs sent back to England from the USA which saved the breed from extinction came from Hyacinth Mellish and she got her dogs from Merle Campbell Sr.
Merle is the guy who bred the bordeaux into the mastiff! Even if that blend occured after Mellish..........SO WHAT???

Medicine Man was built on the bordeaux and the Deer Run Free people built their lines on the back of Medicine Man!........Guess what?

Another cocktail!

Are we having fun yet?

Wait it gets better!

So now we have separate camps who feel that their dogs are superior to one another, when in fact they are basically the same mixed blood crosses that were done so many times I've even lost count!

But hold it! What about the open Deer Run pedigrees!!!

Ah ha! A valid issue right?..............WRONG!

OK, Tobin screwed up! They found Kookie documentation and that argument is used to validate staying away from Deer Run dogs by some pedigree "purists".......Guess what?

Mastiffs, throughout history, have always had "kookie" crosses and English breeders were the Kookiest of all! Dogs jumped fences and bred to whomever and papers were forged. Lets face it, there are no pedigree police observing every breeding and these rural British breeders had plenty of invalid breedings. So what do the "purists" say about that?......They say prove it!

I say, read the history and read past pedigrees! How many times can the term "UNKNOWN" show up in early British pedigrees???

The fact remains that the high degree of variation in the mastiff type is due to one thing and one thing only!..........Namely..............CROSSES!

Therefore, we don't know what we're gonna get, ala Forrest Gump!

Recent pedigrees that can be validated by DNA, if necessary, are a tool, no doubt!

I say, stick to the recent science, forget about past mistakes and kookie documents and start fresh! Breed from known pedigrees a few generations back and know the dogs and the breeders, there's your "valid" pedigree!

Given the past history and the genetic state of the mastiff at present, in reality, it's the ONLY choice we realistically have.

There is no other way!

The plain truth, is that there are no "pure" mastiffs!

Lets start to make them "pure"!

This Deer Run Free vs Deer Run issue, at this point in time, is really silly!

Lets get over it, move on and produce mastiffs worthy of the name!



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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #46 


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MiguelSanchez

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Reply with quote  #47 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveoifer
Does anyone know when the epiphany occurred at GH?

I see that GH Paeder of Mylar is out of DR Ungar of GH who was out of DR Ivan X DR Tessil.


Hello to everyone, little late, but just entered to this forum.

Hi Steve you might be aware, anyway just adding extra info. This was published in the NEMF Newsletter Fall 1989, I Don't know the story behind.


Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: Greiner_hall_pedigree.jpg, Views: 75, Size: 160.23 KB 

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Miguel Angel Sánchez

MASTIFFS ARE MAGNIFICENT!!

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #48 

Interesting pedigree!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Magnum

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Reply with quote  #49 
This is a very nice thread.  I have seen way too many that were, let's say, not so fluid.
Nicely done, esp on Mr. Oifer's part.  Thank you for sharing.
Being somewhat of a newbie any and all valid, well thought out threads on breeding and history is extremely helpful. 
Thank you all.


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