Register  |   |   |  Calendar  |  Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #1 

The biggest impact on the "modern" mastiff, in my opinion, has been the dogue de boreaux.

It's come through MM and has really changed the conception of what a mastiff should look like.

The "new" massive shorter legged " English mastiff", did not arrive out of "pure" British stock! It came via France and has impacted the breed significantly.

Anyone for tennis?


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
LazarusMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,172
Reply with quote  #2 

Hey, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't most of the mastiffs that were used to rebuild the UK kennels come from the Americas?  It is just funny because what we call English lines actually came from elsewhere.  LOL  It just shows that breeders ideals mean more than the dogs they started with after a period of time.   The Bordeaux is certainly behind most mastiffs today, but the standard and proportions being looked for were there before the influence of the dogs behind MM weren't they?  The introduction of that dog was done to preserve the breed, but it was picked because it was a close representative of the Mastiff breed type.  I truly feel that after this many generations, the type has developed from the breeders ideals more so than any one or handful of dogs.   After all, they picked that particular Bordeaux because it was very mastiff like didn't they?  Instead of the other way around?  Just something to think about.


__________________
Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #3 

The issue, is that "many generations" aren't "many generations" in reality.

 

The heavy linebreeding to MM and frozen, reduces the "pushing back" affect and in so doing enables the bordeaux influence to present itself more readily.

 

Head type, mass, height, color, eyes are all affected and although the standard strives for some of those attributes, the essence of the bordeaux emerges and the former "mastiff type" becomes diluted and perhaps lost in time.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
LazarusMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,172
Reply with quote  #4 

I think this is just something that we do not agree on.  We are both probably rationalizing to see what we think is correct.  I look at all those early hellingly dogs and I see a very diverse headstyle, but as a group, I see where they were heading.  I also disagree that there was a vast amount of mastiffs in the 20's and 30's.  I do not know where to find those numbers now, so I cannot refute it.  I do know that there were only a handful of prominent breeders according to all the pedigrees I have researched.  Certainly not like we have now.  When I see the dogs that you are favoring as more correct, I see a more dane proportion.  When you see mine, you see Bordeaux.  They are both relatives, just different ideals.  You like a dog that appears taller and I like a dog that appears wider.  Personally, when I hear Mastiff, I think of massive.  When I think of Dane, I think tall and little body.  It is all relative and simply my oppinion of what is correct.  Regardless of how good or poor the breed was in it's early days(depending on your interpretation), that bears little meaning to the mastiff of today.  Personally, I think the mastiff has improved greatly in the last century, just as nearly all breeds have.  If you use the mastiffs of old as a guideline, you will have much poor angulation, poor rears, inconsistent ear sets and a less healthy dog.  That is just a fact.  That is how they were and there was a greater variety of those being used as examples of the best they had at the time.  Why should we think that the body type was ideal then when so much else was not.  They all had the same goal in mind, but less time(and dogs) to accomplish it.  I do see it as progress.  Again, this is my personal oppinion.  If you feel that the standard calls for a more leggy dog and a triangular muzzle, then that is fine.  You could probably get one for much less.  LOL  Just kiddin'.....but really!


__________________
Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #5 

Chris,

 

I've never stated my personal preference in type!

 

You are reading more into my posts than they were "designed" to illustrate!

 

I'm making observations and letting the pieces fall as they may!

 

 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
LazarusMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,172
Reply with quote  #6 

Sorry Steve, you are right.  I was making an assumption based on the pictures you have been posting and your comments on the dogs.  They just all seem to be a bit different in type than my interpretation.  It is just a preference anyway.  All mastiffs are OK in my book.  Back to the subject though.  If you will look at Lazybones kennels, they have very nice thick bodied dogs without much Bordeaux behind them.  For a long time, he had nothing with Bordeaux behind it.  I believe that he recently brought in a dog with MM behind it.  He still bred that type of mastiff though.  That is one reason I believe it is more the breeder than the past dogs.  Someone correct me if I am wrong.  I am going on my feeble memory here.  LOL


__________________
Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #7 

Question, if you had the opportunity, would you cross to a dogue de bordeaux today?


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
LazarusMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,172
Reply with quote  #8 

If I had the opportunity or the need?  I don't think there is a need for that with 50,000 mastiffs.  Besides, what mastiff traits are you looking for that can't be found on a modern mastiff?   In the past, I could understand the need, but certainly not in recent history!!!


__________________
Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
0
goldleaf

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 8,058
Reply with quote  #9 
Bump
__________________
0


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #10 
Tennis ? who wants a game of Cricket? Hmmmm.
0


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #11 

I'd play Harry but I really can't jump that high... and when I rub my legs together I don't chirp... DARNIT

0
Beltanemastiffs1

Registered:
Posts: 14
Reply with quote  #12 
Lion an Wallon had Bordeaux in them also, from Wallon's sire.
__________________
To Mastiffs With Love
0
goldleaf

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 8,058
Reply with quote  #13 
Bumping to save topic

__________________
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #14 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #15 

The Dogue de Bordeaux in the US

It is said that Dr. Phillip Todd who first brought the Dogue de Bordeaux into the United States in the 1960's, but as historians of the breed in the USA, we ignore the statements of Megere's dog Hercules fighting in the ring in San Francisco in the late 1890's. There are also reports of individuals seeing evidence in dated photos of dogues in the USA in the 1902's. In "La Saga du Dogue de Bordeaux" Prof Triquet notes the first dog recorded to be exported to the USA was Fidelle de Fenelon, to Merle Campbell in 1959, and the second dog was Rugby de la Maison des Arbres, to Dr. Todd in 1968. Eventually Dr. Todd moved to Holland and took his Dogue de Bordeaux with him, no record can be found of Merle Campbell and his dog.

Recently, the son of Merle Campbell wrote to the DDBS in 2006 with some interesting history to add on Fidelle:

"Franklin "Merle" Campbell Sr. was my father. Dad was probably the longest living breeder of Old English Mastiff's at the time of his death in 1987. My mother Henrietta B. Campbell was also very much involved in the breeding and cared of Mastiff's, both for their entire adult lives.

Dad brought the female bitch dogue in 1959 from France. There is not a Old English Mastiff in the world today that is NOT a descendant from this bitch. She was rather smallish by Old English Mastiff's standards but well with in the the breed standards of size and weight. Her confirmation was near perfect and she resembled a Brindle Mastiff/BullMastiff cross to some degree. My father conferred with the Mastiff Kennel Club before introducing her to the Old English Mastiff Breed. After the fact a great degree of controversy developed. Mrs Moore, a later friend of my fathers and a DuPont, wrote a book on the Old English Breed. She later thought that the introduction of the Dogue of Bordeaux to Mastiff line actually improved the Breed.

An interesting side note was that she was an adult dogue and did not understand English. It took her several months to learn English command. She was a beautiful dog. We loved her."

- Merle Campbell Jr.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #16 

I confirmed the color when I spoke to Col. Merle Campbell Jr.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
mastiffmom

Registered:
Posts: 207
Reply with quote  #17 

bump

0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:


THANK YOU FOR VISITING OUR BOARD!!