Register  |   |   |  Calendar  |  Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 1 of 2      1   2   Next
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #1 

Unread post

http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/health/ppm.htm

http://www.upei.ca/~cidd/Diseases/ocular%20disorders/persistent%20pupillary%20membrane.htm

http://www.vetinfo.com/dogeye.html




__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
goldleaf

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 8,058
Reply with quote  #2 
I read either a thread or an article the other day where it was mentioned that PPM can be caused by an infection that the dam has.  Does anyone remember where this information was located?

__________________
0
Monica

Registered:
Posts: 4,089
Reply with quote  #3 
Jann - I think I remember where I saw it... and I also think it may have been Chris that posted a good chat about it (but don't quote that because I am not sure) ... Check the Deer Run thread on this board.
__________________
Monica
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #4 

PRA INFO

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/94/1/27

 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
LazarusMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,172
Reply with quote  #5 

If or how this condition is inherited is still not known.  It does seem to be more common in some families and less in others.  The fact that is has been studied for several years and there seems to be no definitive mode of inheritance leads me to believe that it is commonly a secondary condition instead of a primary condition.  This is just my best guess and there is room for argument of different views.  I feel that there is a degree of heritability, but I believe that it is more closely associated with muzzle length and mothers that are more or less prone to have mastitis or possibly the lack of colostrum etc.  Mastitis and mothers excessively licking puppies faces has long been thought to have caused a higher rate of PPM by many breeders, but this is not necessary to pass it on to pups.  Personally, I have seen a certain amount of truth to that, but it seems to be greatly exaggerated by eye infections in general.  Personally I feel that most PPM is  the result of eye infections ranging from severe to mild or even sub clinical(so mild it is not detectable).  There have just been too many people that have successfully breed two dogs with ppm and prevented it in the offspring with antibiotics to discount that theory.  One thing that I have certainly noticed is that the short muzzled families tend to have a higher occurrence of PPM.   A shorter muzzle, mothering instincts and the amount of colostrum/milk mothers typically have is certainly hereditary.  It is my theory that ppm is more common in short muzzled dogs because their eyes are closer to the milk gland and are more prone to have the milk get into their eyes and introduce infection.  I also believe that dogs that have mastitis have a higher rate of offspring with ppm because there is a live infection in that gland and it will more easily pass through to the eyes when they are rooting for a teet.  Lastly, if there is a lack of colostrum there is obviously less immunities in the pup that are able to fight off any infection they get in their eyes.  In general, I feel that PPM is a result of minor eye infections due to the cleaning habits of mom and the owners, stressed puppies and the reasons listed above.  It just seems to make sense and is nearly impossible to prove a mode of inheritance because of how many factors must be taken in to account.  That also explains why it is more common in some families than others, but can pop up anywhere.  The shorter muzzle is what the standard calls for, so that cannot be addressed, but the other contributing factors should be taken into consideration with every litter.   Ultimately, there are many opinions on PPM, but it is still not known if/how it is inherited.  While, like all conditions, the most severe cases of PPM are very detrimental to the dogs overall quality of life.  Fortunately, the VAST MAJORITY of PPMs are not clinically significant, which means they cause little to no problems for the dog.  Personally, I try to avoid PPM when I can, but because the nature of the condition does not commonly affect a dogs quality of life, it is a much lesser concern than most other issues.  Cystinuria, Hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, PRA, Diabetes, Wobbler's, etc, etc etc are all much more serious to me because they more commonly(or always) cause a lesser quality of life for our pets.  Many people try to treat PPM as they do the above conditions, but when compared to the above conditions or diseases, it is really in a totally different league.  Those are only my personal thoughts on the subject, so take those for what they are worth.  I hope that helps. 


__________________
Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
0
NancyE

Registered:
Posts: 850
Reply with quote  #6 

Thanks for an excellent post Chris.


__________________
Nancy
http://www.kitanmastiffs.com
0
goldleaf

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 8,058
Reply with quote  #7 
Ditto on that Nancy.

__________________
0
Monica

Registered:
Posts: 4,089
Reply with quote  #8 

Double  Ditto Chris!!  As a newbie - and gaining experience - when I first started hearing about PPM from another poster on another board that poster made it sound as if the world was coming to an end. 

 

I was hoping that you might elaborate on what type of care routine you provide to your pups and bitches before and during whelping from antibiotics to cleaning to help deter the formation of PPMs.  While I wrote "formation" it is my understanding that a true PPM is the remainder of membrane strands on the pups eye which would otherwise dissapte naturally by the age of 6-8 weeks.  Some smaller percentage dissapating later - up to six months, and then the percentage that do not dissapate.

 

Can you clarify in your opinion, do you feel what you stated above affects the pups ability to dissapte the membranes naturally or do you feel what you stated above causes the membranes in the first place? 

 

I thought that all pups were born with the membranes and it is those that don't go away that turn into PPMs.

 

Thanks 


__________________
Monica
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
0
LazarusMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,172
Reply with quote  #9 

Hi Monica, you are correct.  All dogs are born with a membrane covering(Pupillary Membrane) which is consisted of interlocking strands that I liken to a cloth weave.  It is not considered persistent(PPM) unless it does not go away.  Anything that inhibits reabsorption of the membrane, be it infection, nutrition, etc. will result in PPM.  Many times pups that are first diagnoses with mild PPM will actually continue to absorb those strands as they mature and they will go away completely with time.  Generally speaking, PPM can clears itself up, but there will NEVER be more strands present themselves.   There are a few cases of PPM that can cause a cataract to form, but again, this is not common either.  I hope that helps and wasn't too boring.   


__________________
Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
0
Monica

Registered:
Posts: 4,089
Reply with quote  #10 

That wasn't boring..... I like reading your opinions on this because it is vastly more informative, even if its your opinion, than some I have heard. 

 

If you feel like it share your preventions - it would be helpful.  You can always email me if you don't want to post - I know its your own opinion and "concocctions" if you will - but I value...


__________________
Monica
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
0


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #11 
Hi Chris, just picking up on this..I understand there are 5 types of PPM depending on how the membranes are placed in the eye..I understand 2 of these types are considered more serious..as in causing blindness..do you know which of the PPM types are more common in the mastiff, are there any stats on this anywhere?...I have heard different breeds are prone to particular types of PPM
thanks Karen

0
LazarusMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,172
Reply with quote  #12 

There are 4 primary types of PPM.  The vast majority of PPMs are Iris to Iris and are clinically insignificant.  The main types are below

  1. Iris to iris. The strand is attached to only iridal tissue, not touching the lens or cornea.
  2. One end attached to iris, the other not attached (free floating).
  3. Iris to lens.
  4. Iris to cornea.

__________________
Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
0
goldleaf

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 8,058
Reply with quote  #13 
Bump
__________________
0
LazarusMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,172
Reply with quote  #14 

Bump for Tisha


__________________
Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
0
brandig

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,679
Reply with quote  #15 

anyone ever hear of eye folds? is this cerf pass or not pass in mastiffs?


__________________
Hair? what hair? i dont see any hair!!
0


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #16 

If you are referring to "retinal folds," yes, these do pass CERF for Mastiffs and have for years. 

0
brandig

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,679
Reply with quote  #17 

that's great!! my girl has a few tiny ones on the left eye!! she(the cerf lady) told me she thought mastiffs did pass for this but wasn't 100%.  i am sooo glad!! you made my day!!!


__________________
Hair? what hair? i dont see any hair!!
0


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #18 

Well, I'm glad to have made your day.  LOL  I have owned 4 Mastiffs that had retinal folds as puppies, and passed their CERF exams.  All 4 went on to get completely CLEAR (meaning that retinal folds were gone) by adulthood.  All 4 of these Mastiffs were CERF'd as babies and again as adults.  3 were related (mother and 2 sons) and one completely unrelated (bitch). 

0
brandig

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,679
Reply with quote  #19 

i found a site on folds on the mcoa site that said they go away sometimes. i will have her retested to see if they go away.  my fingers are crossed!!


__________________
Hair? what hair? i dont see any hair!!
0
Monica

Registered:
Posts: 4,089
Reply with quote  #20 

A few posts up on this thread Chris M. had elaborated very well I might add on his theories surrounding PPM's.  He also talked about remedies or preventative measures that he feels help reduce the occurrence of PPM's.

 

I was wondering how other's felt about Chris' theory and if others have or would consider preventative measures such as Chris discussed in hopes of protecting the pups.  One would have to agree with Chris' theory in order to consider prevention.  I for one would not hesitate at this point to use preventative measurees since it has not been proven that PPM's are genetic.

 

I asked Chris if he'd like to post his "remedy" but nothing yet.  So, I was wondering if anyone else had opinion on this or was in fact practicing preventative medicine with their litters.

 

If you don't feel comfortable posting - you can always email me personally.

 

Same goes for you Chris - I am curious about your theory and mostly if someone has actually found a prevention that seems to work that they believe in - I would hope they'd share so that more pups are healthy..

 

Thanks


__________________
Monica
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
0
LazarusMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,172
Reply with quote  #21 

I am sorry Monica, I thought I had already responded with some ideas on prevention.  I believe it is possible to prevent it with a low dose antibiotics when they are young.  I believe Jess at Old Scholl stated they did it with success.  I have not really had it to speak of so far.  I believe that is due to the fact that I do not leave the pups with mom unless they are eating.  If they are eating, I am there to make sure there is no need for excessive rooting for a teet(because I place them on directly) etc and I do not let mom lick their faces excessively.  Very good hygene standards for pups seems to help.  Perhaps Jess could tell us the amount of antibiotics that they used. 


__________________
Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
0
Monica

Registered:
Posts: 4,089
Reply with quote  #22 

Thanks Chris - you actually did state some of this in general terms.  I was wondering who gets the antibiotics - mom and pups?  For how long - I will aslo ask my vet if and when that time comes for me.  I am trying to put together a binder and keep information that I read and feel valuable - stuff you don't always find in a book or at the vet for that matter - stuff that others pass  down (to which I say thank you so much, heck the dogs say thank you for sharing with newbies...) Anyway, what you use to wipe their faces and eyes when done nursing, and is mom cleaned as well.  I was looking for some more details.  Jess, if you wanted to share, it would be great!

 

Thanks Chris


__________________
Monica
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
0
LazarusMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,172
Reply with quote  #23 

Listerine and water mixture in a spray bottle is what I used to clean with.  It is antiseptic and gentle too.  The boobs get wiped down before each feeding.  The bedding is also changed every 2-4 hours as long as they are in a box.  If the pups get milk on their face or any poo spots on them anywhere, they get a spritz bath too.  Mom always gets antibiotics if there is any sign of mastitis coming on in any teet(hard lumps).  The teet is also blocked off when feeding and hand milked until it is cleared up.  If it doesn't clear up very quick, it is not used any further.   If it does clear up quickly, I will mark a special pup to be the only one to nurse off of the teet and give it Amoxil for two days.  I have not had a need to use the antibiotics on all pups yet, but I believe it is because of how clean they are kept as young ones.  The amount of bacteria they are exposed to is very minimal when compared to pups that are simply left with mom and rotated.  It is a lot more work, but worth it to me.  Fewer things get missed that way too.  That is just my regimine.  Everyone's will vary. 


__________________
Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
0
Monica

Registered:
Posts: 4,089
Reply with quote  #24 

Thanks Chris  so very much for passing this on!!


__________________
Monica
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
0
StergoMastiffs

Registered:
Posts: 175
Reply with quote  #25 

hi ya Chris

My pups are not left with mom either except during feedings.  If i have a bigger litter they are rotated.  I clean the pups several times a day, but with warm soapy (dial) water.. i think i am going to try your solution and see what happens.  I am also going to try this "antibiotic" theory out with my very next litter. 

I have always supplemented with esbilac, and I will not be using that either.  I am going to use a homemade formula, antibioctics, and I will wash them down with your recipe. 

THANKS

Jen


__________________
Jennifer W
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.


THANK YOU FOR VISITING OUR BOARD!!