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steveoifer

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http://devinefarm.net/reporter/may_2002.htm


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Does the importance of the dam outweigh the importance of the sire?

 

What say you?


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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NancyE

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Reply with quote  #3 

I've researched a couple of pedigrees using the x factor, I'm just beginning to grasp it!

I would truly love to hear opinions from some experienced breeders


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Nancy
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steveoifer

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Grandeur and Good Nature
John Hahn. 1992

 

If you own the book, or get a chance to look at it for a good length of time, you will note that certain dogs have acquired a "stamp". It could be in general form, or angulation etc. As an example, in the book one can trace back to many Gulf Mills breeding's. Many of Mike's dogs had that "stamp" mentioned above. It comes through CH. Bengali Tigress, a dam who was prominent in the background of many of Mike's dogs. Her "stamp" is clearly there for the trained eye to observe. I am fortunate, because I knew this fine bitch 30 years ago and had several different breeding's through her. I can spot a "Brindle" ( her "pet" name ) "get" a mile away, even today!

 

The X factor carries much more genetic "stuff" than the Y.

 

The sire looks more imposing due to size, but the form is shaped by the dam side of the sire, more so than the sire's sire's Y!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #5 
Goldleaf's Tiger Lily


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PrayerboxMastiff

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? for all the experianced breeders. When one is looking at a pedigree what is it that your looking at past the names? Type, consistancy in mastiffs produced in the line? testing, movement, topline,angle, temperment? When you look at a pedigree and there are no pictures to look up then what, how will you know the type of dog behind your breeding if there are no pictures of the past, then should you pull up testing of ancestors siblings offspring? Some of us havent yet had the great oppertunity to see the mastiffs of the past and yet some of us speaking for my self here what to learn ALL they can!!! Can anyone help can someone pull up a pedigree and go step to step as if it were a breeding you were going to do?? Just to explain do you pick the bad and good points in each pedigree and see if they will factor eachother out? Ive read in some books that mastiffs are one of the breeds that dont breed true? One of the reasons you look at the pedigree right?

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #7 

Pedigrees can only get you so far, even for experienced breeders.

 

Mastiffs don't always breed "true" and there are many "types" in this breed, which can confound the most experienced breeder.

 

Not knowing any of the dogs in a pedigree, renders the paper worthless as a guide!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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PrayerboxMastiff

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Reply with quote  #8 

Thanks Steve One thing about this Mastiff Board you really seem to know your mastiffs:0) Thanks for sharing all you share Love all the history, pictures and everything. God bless you Candi http://www.prayerboxmastiffs.com

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #9 

Half sister to "Boulder"

 

A very close image and why the X factor is important!



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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #10 

Dominance doesn't always mean better........

 

 



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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #11 

Steve, I have read the article - Devine Farms - and have read what you wrote under the book.  I don't really know much about this and last I looked on line - the book was very expensive...

 

Can you explain your analogy a bit more regarding Tigress?  Meaning, do you feel the X chromosone in that "genetic pool" was stronger from her?  I am assuming, and know you will correct me, that you don't mean the X chrome is stronger in general as you discussed.

 

Can you elaborate? 


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Monica
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Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #12 

The X factor is ALWAYS stronger than the Y!

 

There is more genetic "stuff" on the X.

 

If you look at many generations of dogs out of Tigress you will find a "STAMPING" of her form on most. The similarities are striking and it's due to the X factor.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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madchemist

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Reply with quote  #13 

Do not forget that there is a whole lot more genetic material located on the 38 pairs of autosomes than there is one the one pair of sex chromosomes.


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Clinton Shuey
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #14 

So bear with me - this is Genetics 101 - basic class right.. :-)  So, if the X chrome is always stronger and using Tigress as an example being that you can see her stamp on many dogs - then shouldn't that be the case with all females passing their own X stamp on - meaning all dogs would have more traits from the mother? - that doesn't make any sense to me - so I know I'm not getting it??  Just get me over this hump and it will get clearer for me - I know this might be obvious but not to me - this stuff is confusing right now.

 

post/post edit:  Hubby just walked in the door and said, yep, that's pretty much what he said - meaning that the pups get more of the mother's stamp that the father's.  Steve can you confirm that this is what you meant?  If this is the case, then why does my son have brown eyes, brown hair and olive skin?  I'm blonde, blue eyes and fair - his father has all the dark traits...  Very confused!!!


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Monica
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Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
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madchemist

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Reply with quote  #15 

Steve,

 

What happens when you get a dog with a XXY set of sex chromosomes?

 

Would you call this a super X factor stamp?


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Clinton Shuey
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #16 

Clinton,

 

I have enough difficulty in just focusing on "normal" genetic situations in mastiffs!....LOL

 

XXX or XXY or XYY etc. will just cause me to short circuit!

 

In humans for example there are 3,000,000,000 DNA nucleotide pairs divided by 22 autosomal pairs and 1 pair of sex chromosomes. Not every sex characteristic is on the XY or XX sex chromosome. There's lots of overlapping which takes place and it's tough to exactly target "what" is coming from "whom".

 

"Who's" on first?


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #17 

Monica,

 

The "theory", is that since the Y is much smaller in size than the X, there is less material to be passed on to the XY male compared to the XX female.

 

It gives the female an edge in "stamping" type more-so than the male, but there are always exceptions to every rule.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #18 
XXX or XXY or XYY etc. will just cause me to short circuit!

I'd like to get a picture of that please......

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #19 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #20 

In reality, there is no such thing as "better" in genetics! The term "better" is purely subjective.

 

We are breeding different shapes & sizes etc. When a dog produces "better" than himself it's because the genetic formula enabled the different shape to occur between both dogs bred. We human's give it a value judgement and call it "better", but in reality we are just shape shifting.

 

Don't read this wrong, I'm not diminishing your view, I just feel that a clear understanding of what elements are at play when breeding animals, is important for breeders to know, in order to achieve new outcomes ( forms ).

 

When one states, "he has a "better" head" etc., few if any really break down the components of why that head was "better" than the other one! It's just generally accepted as fact without knowing why!

 

If watchmakers designed their watches the way we design our dogs, we'd still be using sundials!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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madchemist

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Reply with quote  #21 

Im waiting for a mastiff with a myostatin knockout gene.


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Clinton Shuey
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #22 

Just use steroids!...LOL


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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madchemist

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Reply with quote  #23 

What fun would that be?


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Clinton Shuey
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #24 
Bump
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #25 
Bumping to save thread
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