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Reply with quote  #76 

Baloney to your Nonsense.

You continue to say that for example Sherman would still be the same great dog without his recessive long haired gene.  Simply not true, he is the dog he is because of all his genes.  You do not know how important this gene may be, I do not know how unimportant this gene may be............but we do know there is something to it because of all the wonderful dogs that posses it.  Poo Poo Mr. O, to your Nonsense.........you just will not see all the picture this gene may bring.......good or bad.

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #77 
Anecdotal nonsense!

In all due respect! Sans poo poo!

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #78 

As you say we should look to other breeds to see what makes differences for them.  You can not be so narrow minded to not see there may be some benefits to this gene, I am very Logical in my views and do see some disadvantages.  It is a slippery slop you want to make a stand on by saying an ABSOLUTE.  It is not anecdotal on my part.  In all due respect.....poop just makes it an easier slide for your ass down it. 

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #79 

It's absolutely anecdotal!

Fluffs do NOT possess better bone than non fluffs!

Only big boned fluffs & their long hair are what creates the illusion of greater bone in fluffs! THAT's the "absolute", not what I've stated! I'm saying that there's no evidence to substantiate the erroneous premise! Long haired Chihuahuas may look bigger than their short haired brethren, but they're not!

Some mastiffs have greater bone, size, mass than others.

The long hair has never been validated, or documented to contribute to that "greater size", even though some fluffs may have nice bone! Circular reasoning and begging the question, is what gets more people in trouble, then not!

I'd have to be on a vertical slippery slope to fall victim to that urban myth! Poop or no poop!

That's an absolute!

Sherman was Sherman and not because of a recessive gene for LH, or black toenails!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #80 
I have said nothing Anecdotal, I said I know it brings bad qualities , but I am Not sure of the good ones, you on the hand are putting in anecdotal garbage.  I have not said bigger bone, I did say what Saint people do in their breeding program and how the gene of hair dictates the size and look of their animals, that is all.  Maybe .......just "Maybe"  there is something to the long haired gene we do not understand.  I am willing to accept that as an "Absolute".

Sherman is Sherman because of everything about him!
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #81 
Here's what you said,..."If you breed a smooth coated Saint over and over to each other.......they loose size ANECDOTAL, if you breed a rough coated one over and over to each other they loose coloring and type ANECDOTAL.  When mixed together-- which they do every 3rd generation on Saints--they get better type and bigger dogs ANECDOTAL.  This little gene in Mastiffs is there in so many, and it may be important for size and type OR IT MAY NOT BE!
 
The issue is that nobody can prove a negative and speculating on the Loch Ness monster's existence without concrete proof, is something called........

ANECDOTAL!

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #82 

I carry a blue eyed gene, but I have brown eyes.

I'm "me" not because of my blue eyed recessive!

Sherman is Sherman irrespective of his recessive LH gene.

Gene's that don't express, remain dormant and don't affect phenotype, otherwise they would not be called recessives.

Are there attachments to that recessive that might express individually?

Perhaps, but they would still need to be proven and not by mere anecdotal observation!

Highly unlikely that the gene for great bone is just an attachment near a recessive gene for LH! If that were the case....ALL LH MASTIFFS WOULD POSSESS GREAT BONE!

PURE MYTH!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #83 
*Here's what you said,..."If you breed a smooth coated Saint over and over to each other.......they loose size ANECDOTAL, if you breed a rough coated one over and over to each other they loose coloring and type ANECDOTAL.  When mixed together-- which they do every 3rd generation on Saints--they get better type and bigger dogs ANECDOTAL.  This little gene in Mastiffs is there in so many, and it may be important for size and type OR IT MAY NOT BE!*
 
The Saint people have proven this in their breed so it is not Anecdotal.  Without all of your Parents and grandparents genes you are not who you are and can not make the offspring you do even with different women in the mix.  Stop playing with the words and highlighting them ..it makes mine look strong and really I just want them to look logical and Absolute! 
 
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madchemist

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Reply with quote  #84 

Just have the mastiff genome and proteome mapped and quit arguing.


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Clinton Shuey
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Reply with quote  #85 

  Why do you try to take my fun away Clinton?  You know it makes my day to torment Steve.

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #86 

Post-translational modification of proteins are in flux and depending on the time/period tested can show different results. Not to mention the costs in exploring these alternative ways!

Coin flipping is much more economical!

Just a taste of the complexity!............
http://www.fruitfly.org/about/pubs/miklos96.html


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #87 
If we never mixed brindles and fawns, in time, we would also see a divergence in type between brindles & fawns!

It's a process of reducing the gene pool and restricting interaction.

Brindles would "look" one way and fawns/apricots would look quite different.

That doesn't mean you "must" breed the two. It means, that if left unchecked, there would be a tenancy toward linear separation of certain types and those types would diverge over time, based on a percentage which represents a restricted gene pool!

Unless those "types" are co-mingled within the color/long haired/short haired product, you can get separate "looks", which eventually could be considered separate breeds.

Mixing the two, i.e. brindles and fawns, you get a balance in type, only because of the combo of related genes for color intertwining with general type.

If you only bred white nailed mastiffs to white nailed mastiffs, eventually you would get different types, compared to black nailed mastiffs. It's just a matter of selection and percentages within the gene pool. It doesn't mean that one nail color type is better than the other.

Essentially it means, that any isolation within any breed, based on one factor, no matter how small, will subject that group to a different phenotype over time.

Gloria Davis has experience in concentrating dark brindles over a period of time and has developed a certain "look" to her dogs. In time, that "look" will become more distinct if she keeps her plan going.

So, back to the saints.......the long haired dogs are bred back to the short haired dogs and vice versa!

This maintains the mix and perhaps clouds the chances of breeding selective short haired dogs and long haired dogs that "look" alike over time through controlled efforts! There's no reason why a short haired saint can't be as large as a long haired saint and vice versa without mixing the two!

It's easier to just combine the two and not have to selectively sort out and fine tune the larger pups for future breedings.

There was a time in mastiffs when short muzzles were linked to small dogs. If your mastiff had the short face, it was assumed that he could not become a large/tall mastiff. These traits were determined by the "experience" of the breeders at that time and many understood why one trait would carry other traits along with it. Selective breeding and modern genetics has changed that pseudo mindset. We now know, that one issue ( e.g. small muzzle ) does not have to accompany other traits ( small size ) the boxer is a good example. A brachycephalic head with a body of an athletic dog all wrapped up in one package!

Smooth coated saints don't "have" to be smaller than their long coated counterparts. Mastiffs don't need a "shot" of LH genes to maintain size!

Scientific breeding practices and judicious monitoring of successive generations, will establish whatever parameters you set for your breeding program. If you want size you can maintain that aspect and if you want other features, you can establish that as well, without the necessity of resorting to "old wives tales" and witches' cauldrons filled with secret ingredients!





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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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madchemist

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Reply with quote  #88 
Only breed perfect mastiffs to perfect mastiffs.

When mastiffs are extinct in 8 years, blame Steve.

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #89 
You mean instead of the "perfection" we've seen over the last 100+ years?

Spare me!

Time to start thinking out of the box!

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #90 
If we think out of the box, you are the First to drag us back into it by saying only the Finest and only the Purest can be in your box. 

Breeding has some Magic to it, and sometimes we pull that old rabbit as expected from the hat , and sometimes we surprise all with something unexpected and wonderful that all cheer for.  If our Skills and dogs do not Satisfy the crowd then we do not continue on.


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #91 

Actually, that IS thinking out of the box!....LOL

I'm not impressed by rabbits coming out of hats!

Tell me honestly, how many people over the years have actually made an effort to find two truly great dogs that are compatible and breed them?

Typically, you own the bitch and you find a stud.....bingo!...Puppies!

Oh, they'll say that they searched long & hard and at times they might, but was the coupling based on compatability of great type, or just a repair job?

We need more like to like breedings of great looking dogs instead of flying semen all over the place, because the dog is "famous" or "might" fix your problem!

That's out of the box for sure!

If what "everyone" says is true and we are now breeding terrific mastiffs compared to 20-30 years ago, then why should it be so hard to find a few greats mastiffs and breed them?

7000 registered and counting!





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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #92 
How many cows, horses, cats, or any other animal is out there, that is perfect to begin with.  It is when man becomes involved that we do think!  We as breeders do have to say I need this, and your male can give it to me.  It may not happen, because of Nature not doing what we think it should.  Breeders do study, develope and work hard and try to create better.  No one goes into this thinking they want to create worse than they started with.

Now granted not all will rise to the top as the cream of the crop.  That holds true for anything.  In an office, some people will rise quickly, and others will do the same job with minimal rewards all their life.  It is fine with them, some are not satisfied with so so efforts.  Each Breeder will do what they need to do at that particular time, with the knowledge they have at the time, and if they do not succeed.........they will soon see that the competition by passes them. 

We can not control the Pet breeders putting out their crap and selling it CHEAP, except to allow people to see quality Mastiffs.  Then they realize there is a difference.  To this day, people do not realize there is a difference in entering the show in BOB and having a real BOB Special. 

You do not have all the answers, just like any good Breeder does not!  We try Hard Steve, believe it, each time we try harder again.  We think out of the box, we think in the box with tried and true, we are not limited in our thinking and always learning, so our box of tricks becomes larger each day.  We are only limited by what has come before us.  Change always comes to any living creature, some are good changes some are bad.  

You must be able to see that the long haired gene has played a role, good or bad, it has.  It has been there since a long time ago.  I truely believe it carries some good, I will let you know as soon as I decied what it is.   
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #93 

Hmmmmm!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #94 
*Saved from a deleted thread............

bobgoldblatt

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Old post 11/17/06 at 03:24 PM  Email PM

Hi Steve,
Prehaps I can answer a few questions with regard to fluffies.
Mike Gensburger and I co-authored the revised mastiff standard in 1991 and we did a lot of research. The fluffies came about due to the introduction of other breeds into the mastiff line. After WWII there were few breeding mastiffs left in England and the English Mastiff Club allowed the introduction of a Newfoundland and possibly a St. Bernard into the breeding program with the understanding that subsequent offspring would be registered as Mastiffs when the offspring they produced look sufficiently like the original mastiff. There is also the rumour, although without proof, that this same technique was tried by Deer Run Kennels, some of their mastiffs did come from England. We believed that the gene pool of mastiffs was sufficiently strong and that it didn't need to be further diluted by throwbacks to other breeds. Therefore, Mike and I added the faults for coat and colour to distinguish the Mastiffs which we love from other breeds. We didn't go for a disqualification at that time because we felt it would take time for breeders to bring their lines into conformity with the standard. What we didn't anticipate was the rise to prominence in the MCOA of pet owners and back yard breeders who have no understanding nor any respect for the standard.

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Bob Goldblatt
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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #95 

I don't have a problem with what Bob said, I have a problem with what you are saying.

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #96 

Hmmmmmm! 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #97 
Very interesting article and a bit of history that hits very close to home!

http://www.weim.net/twn/General/EWood%20-%20StandardRevisions(5-92essay).htm



Key Excerpt:

"In the course of this recent move to revise the Weimaraner Standard with respect to the longhair variation, do we really wish to claim that many of our typical "gray" Weimaraners are cross-bred because they are the descendants of an alleged cross-bred as the Elena Smith articles demand? On the other hand, are we prepared to produce longhairs, whether we like it (or them) or not, perhaps, simply because the gene is already so pervasive in certain Weimaraner lines that it is easier to accept it than to attempt to preserve any exclusively short-haired lines? It appears that the heart of the issue is just the fact that a number of breeders in this country, whose breeding carries the longhair gene, now wish to avoid the consequences -- embarrassment, financial loss, or whatever -- of admitting that many of their dogs will produce a disqualifying coat variation by promoting a revision of the Standard to make that variation acceptable. Or, perhaps, there's something more honorable in it: the disqualification has obviously failed as a means of managing the trait. Whatever the case, why not admit it and work toward a resolution of the real issue: namely, how we can so manage the long-hair recessive that those who prefer to breed only the short-haired variety will be able to do so and those who like the longhairs can have them? At least this tack makes sense. Is it really necessary -- or, perhaps, just easier and more efficient -- to promote an obscure and incorrect genetics of Weimaraner coats and to create mythological distortion of Weimaraner history, smearing the pedigrees of many well-bred dogs along the way, in order to make the longhair variant appear more acceptable? The old saying, "You can fool some of the people, some of the time

..." still applies."

 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #98 

Steve you would be the reason anyone would feel a witch hunt was in progress.  I know of no Breeder that acts ashamed or hides the fact that they have produced a long haired pup or have the gene in their background.  I think you make us feel we have to be careful not the Germain gray dog people.  I see no one saying breed the long haired gene so we smash out the short haired dogs.  I believe we say it is there, and we deal with it.  We say they should not be shown.  They are not killed at birth, and they are sold for a much reduced price or given away to very lucky people as a cherished pet.  However, if I or most breeders came across a super nice long haired bitch that was outstanding, above what a short haired one was--we would keep her and breed her, or we would breed to one with our Stud dog.  We would do it without shame, and we just might improve on things we need.  We are very open about it, until you shoot flames our direction.  In our lifetime we will be judged for the ALL good or bad we contributed-- if we are remembered at all.  Remember this is OUR Mastiff journey also, our path to what is the true Mastiff.......what if you get it wrong and some of us are right.......you see there is the problem and the reason Breeders are creative people.  We are limited only by our own abilities.  Please do not tell me a hundred years from now we will have only long hairs.....we may need them from the ice age then anyway. 

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #99 
I posted the above article and if read in it's entirety, it clearly mimics the issues that mastiffs faced during the pre DNA phase.

These issues in other breeds have ALSO been highly controversial and the article is there for all to see and extract both opposing views and the reasons for those views!

If I'm seen as a "bad guy" for sharing one of those positions prior to testing, so be it!

Labeling me, doesn't make the issue disappear, it only creates reluctance in people to come forward and express their true beliefs, for fear of being labeled themselves!

Since when is an honest view, backed by reason, a bad thing?

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #100 

Dear Mr. Oifer,
We have not, as yet, tested long haired mastiffs for the common long haired gene
variation that we have found.  I will attempt to answer your questions as best I
can.

Is the gene identical for all breeds?
All dogs have a gene called FGF5.  Many longhaired dogs have a variation
(technically a substitution of the amino acid phenylalanine for cysteine at
position 95; abbreviated C95F) within this gene, which we believe affects its
function.  So far, we have tested and reported (see Housley and Venta, Animal
Genetics, volume 37, pp 1-7 [2006]) that long haired in Pem corgis, collies,
border collies, dachsunds, German shepherd dogs, golden retrievers, cocker
spaniels and Pomeranians are homozygous for the identical variant (variations of
a gene are called alleles, and so I will use this word for much of the remainder
of my answers).  All short haired dogs are homozygous for the short haired
allele, or are heterozygous (that is, have one long- and one short-hair allele).  
We have tested a few additional breeds and, except for one breed, the results
are all consistent with the long haired allele being a shared allele among long
haired dog breeds.

Are all long haired genes the same?
We reported this variation as "a major determinant" of hair length in dogs.  We
did this because we know that variations in other dog genes also have an impact
on hair length.  For example, both golden retrievers and rough collies are
homozygous for the long hair allele, but rough collies generally have much
longer hair than g.r.s, indicating that there are important modifier genes that
have not yet been discovered.  The gene for wire hair is a completely different
gene, as are genes for kinky, curly, etc.  However, the L gene (the one we have
identified) appears to be the most important for a large majority of breeds that
have long hair (whether within the breed standard or not!).

Will a Newfoundland possess the same genetic long haired gene as the Corgi? 
We have not tested the Newf.  I suspect that it is the same gene and the same
allele, but this awaits verification.

It appears that the alleles that underlie major desirable variable
characteristics in dogs (various coat colors, long hair, etc.) are shared among
dog breeds.  Mutations that cause new alleles are relatively rare (on the order
of one per hundred thousand to one per million per gene per generation) and most
of these new alleles are lost very quickly.  When humans have, by accident,
discovered new, desirable (and rare) variations that have occurred in their
lines, they tend to preserve them.  When someone wants to develop a new breed
they do not start by waiting for new mutations to occur in the dogs they own
(they would have to wait an awfully long time!).  Instead, they borrow
pre-existing variations that are already present in other breeds.  The long hair
allele that we found fits this view of the domestication process.  Although
there can be other variations that produce the same phenotype (example, the
brown coat color as seen in Labrador retrievers and other breeds is caused by
three different mutations [alleles] in the same gene, called TYRP1), the number
of variations is usually very small.  Again, we have only found the one variant
in the L gene among many breeds (the one exception referred to above may be due
to some other gene - we have not identified a variation in FGF5, and we are
working to understand this exception).

With respect to the origin of long hair in mastiffs, we do not yet know.  I
suspect that the C95F variant is very old and may have even travelled to Tibet
but there is no evidence for this speculation.  As you suggest, it is would be
just as likely (perhaps more so) that the variant was borrowed directly from a
modern European breed.  If you have access to long haired mastiffs and/or
Tibetan mastiffs we could at least look to see if the long hair is due to the
same variation.  I am not certain this would settle the argument over the origin
of the mastiff allele, however.

Regards,
Pat Venta



__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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