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Reply with quote  #26 

Thank you Steve

 

That makes sense.

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Monica

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Reply with quote  #27 

Dona,

 

He is adorable and I am being completely honest, no "fluffing" my answer :-)

 

On the site I went on - which I didn't double check but - I think it is the sight where your boy is listed - they showed heads, at least the page I viewed and you see a mastiff face - different types - and then those fluffy ears...not body attached.

 

Now that I see his entire body - it puts the dog into perspective.  He looks like a mastiff with fluffy ears.. He's very sweet looking.  You could pursue therapy dog work with him as well.  I'd like to do that with Monty one day.

 

Enjoy your fluffy mastiff :-)

 

 

 

 


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HeartsDesire

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Reply with quote  #28 

 

Quote:

We can "rationalize" away any fault into becoming nothing more than a slight cosmetic irregularity, but in that process we'd be doing a disservice to the standard and the mastiff's future genetic strength.

 

Steve,

Isn't this the same as the tight coat?  I realize the tight coated Mastiffs coat is very similar to correct coat and very eye appealing but still a fault.

 


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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #29 

Fluffs DON'T have "better" bone than other mastiffs, nor will they improve bone by breeding to other short haired mastiffs. If a fluff has good bone, or poor bone, it's because of that particular dog's gene for bone and not due to the gene for long hair!

There are plenty of old wives tales to go around!

 

Dang Steve, when you put it like that, who wants to debate anything!  LOL  You seem like you are pretty much convinced!   Oh well, I've always been up for a good challenge.  It is fine that you believe what you want, it is your oppinion and America after all!  It looks like those are more statements of facts.  They are not facts, but oppinions just like everyone else's.  You are just evidently very adamant about them!  They are just dogs and this is only a cosmetic fault.  Is the gene for fluffy mastiffs the same as the gene for bone?  No.  If it were, there would be no shortcoated mastiffs with good bone.  You have to know how genetics works to completely wave this theory off though.  I doubt that any of us here are a geneticist!  I am a restaurant manager for goodness sakes!!!  I do know some basics.  When genes are passed on from mother or father, they are passed on in groups.  Think of them as links on a chain.  Those links are cut and linked with the other parents chain to produce another full length.  Then we have puppies!!!  When the links are passed on, they are passed on in groups, meanining they are not cut simply every other link, but several links at a time.  If it was simply done with every other link being "cut", then all pups from a litter would have a striking resemblence all the time.  Instead, they are cut in gene(chain) segments.  It is believed by many(not just breeders) that the gene for fluffies and huge bone are very close to each other.  For example, if 15 links are cut, and the fluffy link and bone link are only seperated by one other link or they are next to each other, it is much more likely to be found together than seperate.  Through selective breeding, several generations, and a little luck, those genes can be found seperately.  If however, you are looking for more bone and there is a fluffy of good quality around, it can be achieved very quickly, and with a higher probability by breeding it.   It is a sort of a known short cut so to speak.  It does work, and I have noticed that great size often comes from that type of breeding as well.  They could all be linked very closely.  As far as I am concerned, it is always a trade off in breeding and though it is "unacceptable" to some, it is effective and only seems to bring in cosmetic faults.   It is in some senses one of the less offensive trade offs that we commonly make for the dogs.  It is very easy to find loving homes for the fluffies from a litter and the smooth coated dogs usually express the qualities we were looking for.  For the record, I have never bred to a fluffy, but I would not look down on someone who did.  Given the right circumstances, I can see where it could be beneficial.  If it we were talking PRA and the odds were 50/50 of producing blnd dogs, then I could understand your position, but it is not.  It is a cosmetic flaw, no worse to me than a dog with a coat that is too short or lacks an undercoat.  Dogs with little or no undercoat are quite common and some breeder actually prefer that because they shed less!!  I see nothing wrong with that either.  If you are willing to accept that fault, so you can keep a ew more inside the house, that is your choice.  Chris


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Chris Murphy
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #30 

Hi Chris,

 

First of all I didn't state that I "accepted" the shorter coat! I said that it was more acceptable, because it is closer to the standard. There is a difference between the two.

 

Although there can be genetic "carry over", or linkage in certain instances ( e.g. white coat/deafness etc. ) I've yet to see proof of linkage between bigger bone & fluff. Newfoundlands look bigger than other dogs because of all of that fur, but just as in that case, it could just be an illusion in fluffy mastiffs.

 

At times, we press for validity, more out of want then out of science!

 

It's only human nature, when we attempt to change our views, due to sudden personal issues, which can impact the view of our dogs by others, due to genetic variables in our breeding programs.

 

Fortunately for me, I'm not breeding at present, nor do I have any ties to any Kennels who are breeding mastiffs. So if I sound adamant at times, or rigid, it's because I can honestly voice my beliefs, based on my personal experiences and the experiences of others, who I've discussed similar issues with over the last 40 years.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #31 

At times, we press for validity, more out of want then out of science!

 

It's only human nature, when we attempt to change our views, due to sudden personal issues, which can impact the view of our dogs by others, due to genetic variables in our breeding programs.

 

Wow, you really are adamant about this.  Unfortunately, it is not a valid statement.  Some of the people that share that belief do not have a breeding program either.  I have a breeding program, but I have never bred to a fluff or produced a fluff.  I have hoped for a fluff in a litter to see that link and I have seen litters produced by others that have had fluffs in them.  They are amazng.  One of the best litters I have ever seen had fluffs in them.   Truly awesome dogs.  My favorite bitch out of that breeding is a fluffie that is well over 200 lbs and I have seen her completely shaved down.  She has huge bone and mass.  Please don't insinuate that my view is jaded by personal issues when it is not!!!  I have been told of that link and have seen that link before I ever even thought of breeding.  I believe it is there not because I have it, but because I have seen it. 


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Chris Murphy
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Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
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TamK

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
I have been told of that link and have seen that link before I ever even thought of breeding.  I believe it is there not because I have it, but because I have seen it. 


Here's a new link for you.  The fluffies I bred came from a line that was also highly disposed to cancer.  I quit breeding on the line,  they were great mastiffs and I invested a lot of time and effort into them.  It was hard, but I sure don't miss the cancer or the fluffies.  It might of been the wrong thing to do, I don't know.  I don't regret it though.


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Tami
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #33 

Chris,

 

No need to get defensive, I was just generalizing that "some" people can come to certain conclusions, based on their own subjective personal experiences, which can then have them rationalize the issue.

 

If that fluff you saw in the litter looked like it had good bone, it doesn't scientifically mean that it was linked to the fluff!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #34 

My opinion...for what it's worth....I agree with Steve on this one.  I have seen lots of standard length coated Mastiffs w/ great bone and type.  I have also seen several fluffs w/ great bone and type.  I have seen even more poor quality in both coats.  I personally don't see the connection w/ bone/type and coat length.  I don't believe the genes have to do with one another, as much as I do pedigree.  ie...certain lines have bone and type...if they throw fluffs or not...you will see bone and type consistantly.

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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #35 

LOL  Im not defensive Steve.  You have talked to me on the phone and know my personality.  I just have a harder time drawing that line clearly in print than I do in person.  Just different ideas to me.  We learn from them.  Tami, I did not know that about your earlier mastiffs.  I am sorry to hear that.  Do you think there is a link there, or just coincidence?


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Chris Murphy
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TamK

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Reply with quote  #36 
Chris,
Not enough evidence to make a decision on that.  We had bred our male to this particular line and kept a couple of female pups.  There just seemed to be a lot of health issues, along with the fluffy gene.

Quote:
Do you think there is a link there, or just coincidence?


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Tami
Skamania Mastiffs
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kittykat

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Reply with quote  #37 

Hi. I'm new here. Dona, you know I've always adored Eliot and think he's gorgeous no matter what.

I have a girl that I have been told in no uncertain terms she is NOT a fluff. That being said, though other fluffs I've seen all have fluffy ears and my girl has normal ears, I've never seen a coat on a mastiff as long as hers. Her coat is long and wavy and she has feathers on her abdomen, legs and tails. She even has a very thick feathering all the way down to her groin. She is tall and has very delicate bone (possibly beccause I spayed her young, but who knows) and her head is substandard. Her sire and dam are nice looking though and her sire has a gorgeous head. I have no idea where her long coat came from, but for me, a pet owner, I love her dearly and I can't fall asleep at night unless she is next to me and I can run my hands over her coat until I fall asleep.

Though for breeders I understand you wanting to breed to a conformation, if you do have a fluff or a pup that is "cosmetically unacceptable", I would hope that all you desire for your pup is to be placed in a loving pet home where the family cherishes and values that dog for the wonderful loving creature it is.

kat


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #38 
Here! Here! 
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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #39 

Just a thought not to drag this topic through he mud or start an argument as that is certainly the last thing I want to do on here!!!!  However... why is it that Mastiffs seem to be held to such a HIGHER standard when it comes to some things then other breeds... I mean look at how many breeds have a Long coated variety... FOR example St. Bernards a long coat used to be considered a fault... now it seems it would be the norm... heck even those little weiner dogs Dachsunds (sp) have a longer coated variety... Corgi's.... ummm MANY breeds... Also I may be wrong in my understanding, but I thought that research had been done PROVING that the gene for a longer coat wasn't a "throwback" gene but rather one that is COMMON in many breeds and that the gene that gives mastiffs a long coat is identical to the one that gives Corgis a long coat.  I just wonder about these things... I mean if it's a fact that "fluffies" do and are going to exist then why such a public shunning of them by breeders rather then a bigger effort to embrace and even accept them and make them part of the standard like has been done with so many other breeds?

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #40 

Using that logic we could have long haired Danes as well!

Where do we draw the line?

 

The Saint was a SHORT haired dog. The Saint became a long haired dog due to an error in judgment! 

 

Every dog can ultimately become anything if we allow it, therefore the need for standards and limitations.

 

People get hung up on the strict interpretation of standards, but without sticking to the standards, breed definition would become muddy!

 

Either we want distinctive types, or anything goes!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #41 

Just the kind of answer I was looking for then!  I just wondered why it was it was so "muddy" for some breeds and so clearly cut and dry, black and white(or so it seems) for ours!

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #42 

It's clear cut for other breeds as well!

 

They usually seperate the two into varieties!

 

History is also important. There usually was a good reason for coat variations, depending on the job that the dog needed to do and the environmental conditions which existed when that job was being done!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #43 

I will say this much I would much rather see a fluffy mastiff then all these other "new breeds" that are being created using our breed.  Or for that matter a well breed fluffy then a poorly bred pup from a BYB.

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BustersMom

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Reply with quote  #44 

As the owner of a fluffy I'm going to add my 2 cents.  Maybe some of you have read that Jaclyn was a heart purchase.  We had a Mastiff/Rhodesian Ridgeback mix.  He was beautiful and I said our next dog was going to be a Mastiff.  However, he became aggressive and attacked 1 of our other dogs twice and had to be put down.  I was sick (literally) and found Mastiff puppies advertised in the paper (I now know that was a bad idea) & went to look at them.  Well I fell in love with this little girl that had fuzzy hair and was also the runt.  I really knew nothing about Mastiffs at that time.  We brought her home & a little while later I found out she was a fluffy.  Long story short, she is spayed but through her we have grown to absolutely love the breed.  Our 2nd Mastiff is show quality and we show him.  Our 3rd Mastiff (who we will get in a couple weeks) has quite an impressive bloodline.  We are learning, learning, learning.  We take Jaclyn with us to every show whether people like it or not.  We wouldn't trade her for the world.  I understand why not to breed to produce fluffy puppies but what I don't understand is breeders who dispose of these lovely puppies just to cover the problem they consider they have.  They make loving pets.  Jaclyn is by no means anywhere close to breed standard but that doesn't make us love her less.  She is on the small side (almost 21 months old and weighs 110 pounds) and I really don't think she'll bulk up.  But as Dona said yes, people look at you differently when you have a fluffy.  At one show a couple walked by us and said "oh, there they are".  We had never met them but they seemed to know who we were.  We assumed people were talking about Buster (our male we show) and said he's always with a fluffy Mastiff but who knows why they said that.


 

 

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Reply with quote  #45 

You know what I think Dona and Teresa... I think the only reason people should be looking at you different is because they recognize that your hearts are much bigger then the average persons!!!!

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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #46 
I think it's great that you love your girl so much.  Those people were just rude.  As a breeder, I wouldn't purposely put a fluffy into my breeding program, but I have a lot of respect for people that give them loving homes.

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WinstonsMom

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Reply with quote  #47 

When I first saw Eliot (Dona' boy) he made my heart flutter.  He was so full of love.  And then Teresa's Jaclyn - what a doll baby.   People can say what they want and of course they will.  But no matter what the fur, they give us the same love back.  


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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #48 
Bump
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #49 

A fluffy!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #50 

LMAO!!!

 Steve that is funny.

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