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Reply with quote  #51 

Steve, I can't see it!

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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #52 
Neither can I.

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Reply with quote  #53 
I do I have to admit we do have some fun with those people the snub Teresa's girl at the shows
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EileenDurante

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Reply with quote  #54 

On the Mastiff Fluff list back in Jan 2002 there was a test announced for the fluffy gene. Below is the contact info for the agency providing this test

 

> We have determined that the mutation for "Fluffy" that we found in
> Corgi's is the same as in your breed. Thank you for sending the
> samples. We will be offering this test in the near future.
>
> Sincerely,
> Mary H. Whiteley, Ph.D
> Scientific Director
> GeneSearch LLC
> 5284 Randolph Rd.,
> Rockville, MD, 20852


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giselle

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Reply with quote  #55 
Eileen,

Have you used the test?  I know people talk about it all the time but I don't know anyone who acutally has had  their dogs tested.  Is it expensive?


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Reply with quote  #56 

OMG.  I think I met him at happy hour tonight.  


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EileenDurante

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Reply with quote  #57 

Hi Giselle

 

The only one I know who has submitted DNA was Dusty back in 2002. I haven't used it yet. We seem to have bred away from the hair gene for now.

Will be interesting to see if our current breeding of Brian to Bella brings it back.


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A dog, treated with a little kindness, will be your friend for life. How do we reward them? By condemning many to a life of pain or an early death due to various inherited diseases Do we not owe them more than this?
Please support mastiff health testing. Thank you.

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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #58 

Hi Eileene.  I just have a question about the DNA test.  Will it show if your dog can produce fluffy or just if it is fluffy?  For example, a friend has a girl that has had 4 litters.  In one of those 4 litters she had fluffies.  Would the test show her ability to produce it?  That is the only litter the stud or the bitch ever had fluffs.  That could be interesting and possibly useful.  Thanks,


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giselle

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Reply with quote  #59 
The way it was explained to me is that the fluffy gene is a simple recessive gene. Both parents must carry the gene to produce fluffies.  If both parents have the gene and are not fluffy themselves, statistically, 25% will be fluffy, 50% will be carriers, and 25% will be clear. 

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Reply with quote  #60 
I won't add an educated opinion on them because, well.....I'm not educated on them....BUT, I would own a fluffy in a heartbeat!! I think they are beautiful!!

Giselle.....I LOVE your siggy pic!!!


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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #61 
If a breeders wants to find out if fluffies are in their pedigrees, how would they go about finding out?  I'd like to research this, but I don't have enough knowledge on past dogs.  Any researching tips?

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #62 

There is no way other than an honest breeder telling you about it.

 

Perhaps tighter standards would be more informative!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LEXIMSTF

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Reply with quote  #63 

Hey Jann,

 

To get fluffies in a litter BOTH parents must be carriers. While this will not tell you directly who is an actual fluffy in your pedigree, you might be able to figure out who the carriers are through any fluffy offspring they may have produced or those produced by close relatives. Thus minimizing the chance of "surprise" fluffs.

 

I know there are many experienced breeders that would be willing to discuss long hair with you and help you identify the possible pedigree combos that will up the chances for producing it. Try contacting some of the breeders of dogs in your pedigree and others who have been around awhile.

 

 


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giselle

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Reply with quote  #64 

If someone is really worried about it, then they can just do the test that Eileen has talked about to make sure their bitch or the stud isn't a carrier. 


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #65 

From the whippet files...................

 

In other words, if two dogs with a recessive coat type, let us say longhaireds for this example, were bred together, they could produce only longhaired offspring, since longhair is a recessive trait.  However, if a longhaired dog is bred to say, a smooth dog with no longhair in it's immediate background, all the resulting offspring will be smooth, since smooth is a dominant trait.  But those offspring will carry the longhaired trait.  

    The dominant trait expresses itself while the recessive trait is there in the dog's genes, but is hidden by the dominant trait.  Those offspring can then pass on the recessive trait to their own offspring, who once again, may never express the recessive trait either.

    Unfortunately, coat inheritance is not that simple, with many traits being cumulative.  The longhair trait is a case in point.  The hair can be just barely longer than a smooth, or it can be quite long and profuse.  When a smooth is bred to a longhair, the smooth trait greatly overpowers the longhair trait, and it takes a number of generations of breeding longer haired dogs together to get the longer coat back. See Mendelian Genetics Simplified

    Concerning coat length, it is well known that coat length and texture vary widely on modern day smooth Whippets.  This variation in smooth coat type also occurs in Dachshunds where all 3 coat types - smooth, long and wire - may be freely interbred in this country (USA).  When this interbreeding is done, many different coat variations can occur in a single litter, even among ‘smooth’ pups.  Some puppies may have a very smooth coat that is extremely short, fine, close fitting and almost stiff while other ‘smooth’ pups have longer, not so close fitting and softer hairs.

    Evidently this range in coat type is caused by several genes that interact, possibly linking together, and causing a variation in length, texture (from silky to coarse), curly or straight with long feathering, and thickness of coat. 

    Another interesting link with the coated gene is typiness (sometimes defined as exaggerated curviness in the case of Whippets), or lack thereof.  As with many other breeds of dogs, and cats as well, it is the smooth variety within a given breed that is often more typy than the coated variety.  When both smooth and coated animals are in the same litter, the smooth littermates will frequently be more typy than their nonsmooth brothers and sisters.  This phenomena is unarguable because it is observed so often.  However, this does not make the coated, but not quite so typy animal another breed!  

    This frustrating genetic link has been confirmed by many breeders of various dog and cat breeds.  It is one reason that breeders of coated animals are often forced to periodically use smooth animals in their breeding programs - to continually refine type, lest it be quantifiably reduced - because it appears not to be well-linked to the coated gene.  Occasionally an extremely typy coated animal will be produced, and this is the animal that is heavily coveted for show and breeding purposes. Ó


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #66 

Dear Mr. Oifer,
We have not, as yet, tested long haired mastiffs for the common long haired gene
variation that we have found.  I will attempt to answer your questions as best I
can.

Is the gene identical for all breeds?
All dogs have a gene called FGF5.  Many longhaired dogs have a variation
(technically a substitution of the amino acid phenylalanine for cysteine at
position 95; abbreviated C95F) within this gene, which we believe affects its
function.  So far, we have tested and reported (see Housley and Venta, Animal
Genetics, volume 37, pp 1-7 [2006]) that long haired in Pem corgis, collies,
border collies, dachsunds, German shepherd dogs, golden retrievers, cocker
spaniels and Pomeranians are homozygous for the identical variant (variations of
a gene are called alleles, and so I will use this word for much of the remainder
of my answers).  All short haired dogs are homozygous for the short haired
allele, or are heterozygous (that is, have one long- and one short-hair allele).  
We have tested a few additional breeds and, except for one breed, the results
are all consistent with the long haired allele being a shared allele among long
haired dog breeds.

Are all long haired genes the same?
We reported this variation as "a major determinant" of hair length in dogs.  We
did this because we know that variations in other dog genes also have an impact
on hair length.  For example, both golden retrievers and rough collies are
homozygous for the long hair allele, but rough collies generally have much
longer hair than g.r.s, indicating that there are important modifier genes that
have not yet been discovered.  The gene for wire hair is a completely different
gene, as are genes for kinky, curly, etc.  However, the L gene (the one we have
identified) appears to be the most important for a large majority of breeds that
have long hair (whether within the breed standard or not!).

Will a Newfoundland possess the same genetic long haired gene as the Corgi? 
We have not tested the Newf.  I suspect that it is the same gene and the same
allele, but this awaits verification.

It appears that the alleles that underlie major desirable variable
characteristics in dogs (various coat colors, long hair, etc.) are shared among
dog breeds.  Mutations that cause new alleles are relatively rare (on the order
of one per hundred thousand to one per million per gene per generation) and most
of these new alleles are lost very quickly.  When humans have, by accident,
discovered new, desirable (and rare) variations that have occurred in their
lines, they tend to preserve them.  When someone wants to develop a new breed
they do not start by waiting for new mutations to occur in the dogs they own
(they would have to wait an awfully long time!).  Instead, they borrow
pre-existing variations that are already present in other breeds.  The long hair
allele that we found fits this view of the domestication process.  Although
there can be other variations that produce the same phenotype (example, the
brown coat color as seen in Labrador retrievers and other breeds is caused by
three different mutations [alleles] in the same gene, called TYRP1), the number
of variations is usually very small.  Again, we have only found the one variant
in the L gene among many breeds (the one exception referred to above may be due
to some other gene - we have not identified a variation in FGF5, and we are
working to understand this exception).

With respect to the origin of long hair in mastiffs, we do not yet know.  I
suspect that the C95F variant is very old and may have even travelled to Tibet
but there is no evidence for this speculation.  As you suggest, it is would be
just as likely (perhaps more so) that the variant was borrowed directly from a
modern European breed.  If you have access to long haired mastiffs and/or
Tibetan mastiffs we could at least look to see if the long hair is due to the
same variation.  I am not certain this would settle the argument over the origin
of the mastiff allele, however.

Regards,
Pat Venta


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #67 

I was always a bit suspicious about the kennels of the past ( early to mid 1900's ) which raised other large breeds besides the mastiff.

 

One such kennel, was the Sparry Newfoundland kennel in England.

 

Right after they got into breeding mastiffs they had a fluff born which was used quite a bit at stud. His name was Crusader of Sparry and many Sparry mastiffs show up in almost all pedigrees if you go back far enough.

 

The dog must be suspect, since the Sparry Newfoundlands were on premises and could have easily accidentally, or purposefully been used as the sire of Crusader.

 

In either case, this fluff recessive has been passed down to today's dogs.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #68 
Clinton Shuey was considerate enough to permit me to use Tank to make a point.

SEE PHOTO BELOW****
The new test for the long haired gene in mastiffs, does not address secondary genetic characteristics, which may be carried on the chromosome by those dogs possessing the fluff gene. For example, in the picture below, Tank expresses not only the long hair (he is shaved in the photo), but also carries his tail uncharacteristically high & curled.

Since the announcement of the new test, many have felt that it was a green light to now introduce the recessive into the mix en Masse! The reasoning, was that since we can now monitor before we breed, we can reduce the long haired outcome by screening. What we fail to consider, are the secondary characteristics that can be transmitted by carrier dogs. Not all of those traits might be recessive either. You could have a chromosome carrying the gene for long hair (recessive) as well as a gene for curled tail ( dominant?) on that same chromosome, which may express individually, or in combination.

What I'm basically saying, is that caution is still needed, before we dive into the deep end and then realize, after the fact, that there was no lifeguard on station!



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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #69 
Same dog pre-clipped...................



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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #70 

Well I am the Breeder of Tank, certainly never denied it.  Clinton was given a picture of the hairy little Beast--LOL and Tank was sold for a very reduced price.  I had just gotten Sampson his Dad, and breed him 3 days after I purchased him.  I needed height on that Bitch which went back very close to GH Jed.  It was her first breeding at age 4 years old.  I was never told of the long haired gene on his side.  I got 2 long haired pups.  I told Clinton --I did not know if the hair would fall out or not--I sure had seen it happen before on those coats, so it was up to him if he wanted to breed in the future.  I have used Sampson on several of my bitches since and not come up with it again.  Each person that has used him was told he carries the recessive long haired gene.  I have recommended other studs if they had their own long haired gene in their line even when they did not realize it.  I do not think that the curled tail is always showing on Tank, but mainly when he is upset.  Who knows, it has been discussed many times on other boards comparing Sampson to Jed and Sherman--Nice company I think.  You see where you go wrong and try to fix it in dogs.  I am glad there is a test now.

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Reply with quote  #71 
Deborah,

I met the handsome Tank, and I believe he has a normal tail carriage.  Any of my Mastiffs could do that with their tail in a certain situation where something caught their attention. 

I know that Clinton and Sam love Tank (and then some).  I know I do!  He's a handsome, magnificent guy - very typey, very correct, very sound, and has a fabulous temperament.  Clinton most definately knew he was buying a fluffy baby, and is proud of Tank.  Personally, if he were mine, I would consider breeding him (ducking from Steve!).  I don't have a big issue w/ fluffies that many others do.  Plus, we know that you need the gene to be present in both parents to pass it on.  There is a beautiful Mastiff champion that is a fluff, and he has been bred and never produced a fluffy puppy.  To me, the fluff is minor in comparison to other traits I look for in these big guys. 
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Reply with quote  #72 

Click image for larger version - Name: Tank.JPG, Views: 96, Size: 53.95 KB Kristen, I don't recall any of my dogs being able to do this with their tails. These features are closer to the Tibetan ( i.e. 19th century claims of a cross), or perhaps alpine dogs, which may have been transmitted along with the fluff gene.

We know that Saints and perhaps **Newfs were used in the mastiff's recovery and original (1800's) formation. Genes don't die! ( Crusader of Sparry was long haired and came from a *Newfoundland kennel)

The long hair is there for a reason and that reason is most probably due to outside crosses and not the speculative "original" Tibetan progenitor of all Molossers.

*( It's possible that a cross occurred at Sparry with a Newf, but it's just speculative)

**( Newfs are not supposed to carry their tails like that as well)


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #73 
Crusader of Sparry was a full blown fluff and his full siblings were Adonis of Sparry, Serena & Guinevere.

His brother & sisters may not have been fluffs, but they certainly could have carried the recessive.

What makes this so historically important, is that these dogs are in so many pedigrees, that one would be hard pressed not to find these dogs showing up if you look back far enough.

The proliferation of the recessive could be attributed to these dogs since they went into M. Moore's dogs and many many others.

As a side bar, fringe and bushy tails may be a separate gene expression, not directly linked to the fluff gene marker. Too often we hear of people equating the two into one phenomenon, when in fact they could be very different expressions.

__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #74 
Why are you so fixated on Fluffs?  What is it you really want to say about them? 

You know most of us feel that this may be a gene similar to the Saint Barnard one.  If you breed a smooth coated Saint over and over to each other.......they loose size, if you breed a rough coated one over and over to each other they loose coloring and type.  When mixed together-- which they do every 3rd generation on Saints--they get better type and bigger dogs.  This little gene in Mastiffs is there in so many, and it may be important for size and type.


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #75 
Nonsense!

Great danes don't rely on long haired danes to support their size!

The myth exists and there is no basis in fact for greater size by mixing long haired dogs.

You see, you can't have it both ways!

On the one hand, people say the long coat is only cosmetic and on the other hand, they say it brings other NON cosmetic features with it!

There is a contradiction there!

If hybrid vigor is seen in a combo in f1, or if it is an anomaly and subject to subjective anecdotal imprinting, then there is no benefit to the breed.
I've seen my share of mediocre long haired mastiffs and mediocre short haired mastiffs!

We can breed great mastiffs without the LH gene being involved!

As far as my "thing" about LH mastiffs.....I have no "thing", just observations. As you well know, I also discuss many other aspects of the breed and I sometimes wonder if "my thing" is really the reaction of sensitive people when the topic is raised!

I place no value judgment on any minor fault. It's just something to be bred out!



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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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