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SilverKnight

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Reply with quote  #76 
Ok, Angus is just a baby @ 9months, but I just took these of him yesterday.






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oldschool

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Reply with quote  #77 
I think the way it is spelled out in our standard is pretty clear... I've always understood the head to muzzle proportion to be 1:3 where muzzle is 1/3 the length of the entire skull. See below.



Steve, I think you are correct that there are many breeders who must have been (and some still are) breeding to a 1:2 ratio of muzzle to skull, but I think it is very clear that it is 1:3. It's dense reading, but I think it's clear. To me 1:2 is too houndy looking, even with a square muzzle.


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Jess
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #78 

Those visuals work so well for me.  When people draw on dogs (so to speak) and use it in an explanation - it is great....   Could someone or Jess :-) find a 1:2 ratio face and use the same lines as the 1:3 example?  Thanks!


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SilverKnight

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Reply with quote  #79 
Thank you for the visuals!! That clears it up for me.


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #80 

Gulf Mills Mulcher had a 1:2 ratio

 

 

 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #81 
Thanks Steve.
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Monica
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #82 

If the "muzzle" is seperate from the "skull" then a 1:3 ratio is different than what is pictured.

 

One part muzzle to two parts skull is a 1:2 ratio.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #83 

sighhhh - now I'm confused again - trying to picture a muzzle separate from the skull.....

Is there a site that depicts these different descriptions?


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Monica
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #84 

1:3 ratio


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #85 

STeve, so is that a picture of what you feel a 1:3 ratio ("muzzle separate from skull") looks like?  If so, can you describe the difference between the 1:3 pic that Jess posted and this pic?  To  me, they just look like they having different looking heads.  How does one define "muzzle separate from skull" when viewing or analyzing a dog?

 

Thanks


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Monica
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #86 

In profile, the shorter muzzle to head can be viewed easier.

 

At the turn of the century (20th) the muzzle du jour was more of a blunt truncated look, which the original founders seemed to favor.

 

The interpretation can use illustrations if they wish, but it doesn't change the nebulous nature of the way the terminology is written!

 

There should be no doubt in the wording and a 1/3 ratio can mean different things to different people!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #87 

Gott'ya! 

 

How here's a question some might chuckle at - but, do skulls "catch up" to muzzles??  Monty will probably always have more of a 1:2 than a 1:3 - but maybe not - that's why its good to see age progression.  I've seen some dogs as pups and then seen pics of them 2 years later and their skulls and muzzles are proportionate...

 

Just wondering.


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Monica
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #88 

What do Monty's sire & dam look like?


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #89 

I do not understand how you can interperet the standard to be of any other proportions after reading it, in it's entirety, and discussing it.   I do not like using examples from the late 1800's to the early 1900's.  There was a HUGE varience in type then since the breed was still being established.  Here is a mastiff with a 1/3 ratio head.  It can also be said that when the head is broken into three parts that the muzzle is one part and the head is two parts(AKC).  I do understand the possible confusion of interpretation without really drawing it out, because it was worded poorly.  After drawing it out, I do not see how anything else can be considered correct, unless there are just personal prejudices towards a different proportion.  Personal preference does not make it correct though.  Everyone is welcome to like and breed what they want, but the standard should not be "forcefully interpereted" in any other way.  Showing a bulldog "look" with an undershot jaw is not what ANYONE is looking for.  Especially when that muzzle is less than 1/3.  Here is a more recent example.



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Chris Murphy
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #90 

Silly - me -that's probably the third time you've asked me that over different threads  


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Monica
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #91 

Chris,

 

Why the need for an illustration if the wording is clear?

 

It is apparently obvious that the wording needs to be clearer! It is simple enough to do.

 

1:3 is misleading and there should be no uncertainties in a standard.

 

The reason I like using those old shots, is because the founders created the standard back then and THAT standard has formed the template for the standard which now exists in England.

 

The "present" interpretation, is attempting to update the standard, without updating the standard!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #92 

I believe that is why there was further clarification written in the AKC standard.  I am with you though, if they are going to use numbers to define the head proportions, it should be blatantly obvious and done in a more traditional manner.  One part muzzle to two parts head is a 1/3 ratio and it should just be said that way.  I too think it needs to be written more clearly.  It does not change it's meaning though.


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Chris Murphy
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #93 

Steve, do you feel they were wanting a more bull mastiff look?  If I were to use your example, it would appear that way.  I do not personally.


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Chris Murphy
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #94 

I believe, from what I've read, that they just favored that look. They felt it was the "true" mastiff look and although there was dissention among the ranks, the stronger players won the day and the rest is history.

 

THAT history has affected mastiffs till this present day, for better, or worse!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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GatehseMstf

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Reply with quote  #95 

"Showing a bulldog "look" with an undershot jaw is not what ANYONE is looking for. Especially when that muzzle is less than 1/3. Here is a more recent example."

**** I'm a little confused on your wording.  Are you saying that Noble is an example of the bulldog look (muzzle less than 1/3) OR are you saying that he is an example of correct proportions?

 


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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #96 
It's been a while since we've had head shots posted, so I wanted to bump this thread.  We have alot of new members recently and I thought they might like to post their pics.

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #97 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #98 

 compare to head in above picture.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #99 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Castlecreek

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Reply with quote  #100 

Here is J.R. at 20 mos old.

And my last litter of pups born on Oct 6, 2005. pictured at 6.5 wks old.


Or how do all like this rearend..........................





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Valerie Thomas
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