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EXCMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #101 

Steve,

 

I don't find the standard to be any more ambiguous than some of your posts and explanations.

 

Heather W.

 

 


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Excelsior Mastiffs
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #102 

Hi Carrie, I just saw your question.  Sorry.  Noble has correct proportions.  Steve, everytime I see that bull mastiff in the car I have to laugh.  I heard a lot of people think that was an english mastiff, just because of the size.  That is a good, but obvious photoshop job though.  LOL  If that were an english mastiff and I thought I could fix the eyes, expression, and muzzle.  I would probably use him though!  LOL  I have too big and floppy ears now anyway!


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Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #103 

I don't care what he is either!  LOL

 

That photo always knocks my socks off!

 

BTW, if you look at the bullmastiff standard, they are essentially describing a mastiff head!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #104 

Well Heather, thank you for the compliment!

 

On these threads, I try to stimulate different views and "ambiguity" does allow that to occur.

 

If I were involved in writing the standard's revision, you can rest assured that it would be a lot clearer than it reads today!

 

Any standard should be written as clearly as possible and as detailed as possible, in order to remove any ambiguity from the equation.

 

 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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giselle

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Reply with quote  #105 

Steve,

 

Would you mind writing out what you think that standard should read like? I  think that if you posted that, it would be a cool exercise and good discussion as i am sure, we all have different interpretations of the same descriptions.  Or, it might be that we have the same interpretations which might prove that there is less ambiguity in the standard than we might think! 


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Giselle
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #106 

I have no problem with that except for one thing. My interpretation would be based on my personal subjective image of an ideal mastiff. The loose standard enables me to "create" my own imago, so to speak.

 

In order for the standard to be made clearer, a group must first form and come to a common understanding of what that ideal mastiff should be.

 

Once that "ideal" is set and everyone who determined that ideal has "compromised" to some degree, then and only then, can a real standard be established.

 

For illustrative purposes, I might use a part of the standard and elaborate on that one aspect, in order to open a debate of sorts as you suggested.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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giselle

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Reply with quote  #107 

Steve,

 

I'm not saying that the standard needs to be changed. In fact, I'm not even convinced that it needs to be.  I'm just really interested in your personal interpretation of the standard to see if there really is room for debate or if everyone basically agrees. I personally don't have the experience in the breed to propose any changes/enhancements but I figured from your response to Heather that you had your own view of how things should be worded. It would be cool if you would be willing to share this.  


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Giselle
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #108 

Ditto on what Giselle said


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Monica
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Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #109 

Revising the standard and doing so in a well thought out way, would take some time. I don't want to knee-jerk a fast revision which could easily be taken apart due to lack of forethought.

That's why I suggested a piece of the standard and not the entire standard.

I will work on it if time permits......stay tuned!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #110 

AKC STANDARD

Color
Fawn, apricot, or brindle. Brindle should have fawn or apricot as a background color which should be completely covered with very dark stripes. Muzzle, ears, and nose must be dark in color, the blacker the better, with similar color tone around the eye orbits and extending upward between them. A small patch of white on the chest is permitted. Faults-Excessive white on the chest or white on any other part of the body. Mask, ears, or nose lacking dark pigment.

 

OEM STANDARD

 

 

 

COLOUR

Apricot-fawn, silver-fawn, fawn or dark fawn-brindle. In any case, muzzle, ears and nose should be black with black around orbits, and extending upwards between them.

 

PROPOSED STANDARD RE: COLOR

 

All shades of Fawn ( i.e. silver fawn, apricot fawn, Dk fawn, Lt. fawn ).

 

All shades of Apricot ( i.e. Dk Apricot, Apricot, Lt Apricot )

 

All shades of brindle ( i.e. Apricot brindle, apricot-fawn brindle, fawn brindle)

 

Acceptable brindle variations are, light or dark fawn ground, or apricot ground in combination with fawns, or apricot alone, with black *stripes evenly distributed all over the dog in varying degrees of intensity per individual dog, but distributed in such a way ( *marbleized or striped )as to eliminate an imbalance of symmetry in the brindle pattern(e.g. blank areas). Mastiffs almost totally black in color ( very dark brindles )are rare, but such a color is not to be seen as a fault.

 

Muzzle, ears, and nose must be dark in color, the blacker the better.

 

A small patch of white on the chest is permitted, but not desirable.

 

Muzzle, ears, and nose must be dark in color, the blacker the better, with similar color tone around the eye orbits. If black is extended beyond the orbits and on to the other parts of the face, it is not to be considered a fault.

 

Faults-Excessive white on the chest or white on any other part of the body. Mask, ears, or nose lacking dark pigment.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #111 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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kittykat

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Reply with quote  #112 

As a newbie here I have loved this thread. I adore all the photos I've looked at here. You ALL have such gorgeous dogs. I have 2 pet brindle mastiffs and one show fawn puppy. I don't show him, his breeders do. I shudder at the thought. lol. I told my friend, his breeder, that I just wanted a mastiff that looked like a mastiff as my other pets don't really have that great mastiff look. I look at my baby boy and I think he has a chance to develop into an awesome looking dog when he's mature. But, whether he does or not, I think he's gorgeous and I absolutely adore him.

My pets, Bou, 4 years, 4 months-severe PPM and osteosarcoma :-(; Edie 3 years, 1 month healthy and adorable with her long hair and Harry, 8 months old and healthy. I hope you like them.

 



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Kat
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #113 
Hi Kat,
I wanted to welcome you.  Thanks for sharing your pictures and I hope you enjoy our board.  You have some cute kids there!!


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #114 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #115 

 

 

 

Truly wonderful!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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oldschool

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Reply with quote  #116 
Steve,
I could be wrong, but those pics look like they are of Carrie Klaiber's Toby (AM/CAN/UKC Ch WileyWays Gatehouse Unstpbl Force CGC), not Noble Knight of Greiner Hall. Noble (owned by Roger and Karen Smith) is Toby's grandsire.

Here's a pic of Noble (on the far left) with 2 of his kids (the same breeding as Toby's sire) from back in 2000. He was a beautiful boy who produced some really nice puppies.




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Jess
Old School Mastiffs
http://www.oldschoolmastiffs.com/
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GatehseMstf

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Reply with quote  #117 

Yep, you're right, Jess.  That's my Poo-ba.    I think he looks a lot like Grandpa Noble from certain angles (and a lot like his uncle there in the middle when he's scowling.  haha)

 

He still gets to keep the title of "Truly wonderful" doesn't he? 


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Carrie Klaiber - Gatehouse Mastiffs
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GatehseMstf

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Reply with quote  #118 

As a side note...

 

I have been standing ringside with a group of Mastiff folks more than once when spectators walked by, looked at the dogs, pointed directly at Toby and said, "THAT one's a Bullmastiff."

 

 

 


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Carrie Klaiber - Gatehouse Mastiffs
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #119 

Sorry for the error, it's the way I saw it originally.

 

BTW, they're ALL bullmastiffs!....LOL

 

We just call them mastiffs!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #120 
Carrie - I admire him everytime I see him!  Jess, thanks for posting a pic of the grandsire for this newbie - he is a beautiful boy as well.  Love the pictures~
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Monica
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
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NancyE

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Reply with quote  #121 

Someone somewhere said who one of the dogs was on the AKC breed video of the Mastiff - had something to do with his small dark ears..

Was it here? Does anyone remember? Can someone please post it again??!!

My memory isn't what it used to be.... sigh... it's so annoying!

 

Anyone else know who any of the dogs are and want to fess up? I'd love to know who I'm watching


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Nancy
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oldschool

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Reply with quote  #122 
Nancy,

It's been a while since I've watched the AKC video but I know that the dog shown when they're giving the general description (...height from depth of body rather than length of leg...) is our Remo (Ch. Old School's Primo Remo Major) and, as I recall, the dog they show for most of the "this is what a head should be like" is Josh (Ch. Matts Joshua of Dogwood Knoll). I could tell you more but it has been so long since I watched it and I don't have a copy here.

Jess

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Jess
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http://www.oldschoolmastiffs.com/
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NancyE

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Reply with quote  #123 

Thank you Jess!

 

By any chance is the puppy bitch a daughter of Remo? Where they say "here's a puppy who already exhibits proper porportions." I thought she looked like him. Especially their rears!

 

(I know it's an impossible question without the tape.. Wish I could let you borrow mine! )


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Nancy
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #124 
A bump for the newest members.

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WinstonsMom

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Reply with quote  #125 

Thanks for bumping this up.  I always thought Winston's forehead was too flat, now I see it is okay for the breed.  How interesting.  


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Debby
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