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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #51 

Hey Monica, that is me at a college graduation ceremony 7 years ago.   Below is a picture of me now.  This should be used to demonstrate the difference in appearance a different "coat" can make.  LOL  An eyebrow here, some hair there, makes a big difference in appearance.  What do you think about my wrinkle and expression in those pics. LOL 



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Chris Murphy
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Illusionmastiffs

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Reply with quote  #52 

I would like to see a little more wrinkle!! LOL

Lila


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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #53 
Nicci - I think they're ignoring my request..

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Monica

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Reply with quote  #54 

Politically correct:  Nice wrinkle - what's your pedigree? 

 

Honest and Direct:  Decent wrinkle but I think you are having a problem with your undercoat and well "coat" in general.  You sir, need some fluff in your pedigree!!  Either that or you need to talk with your groomer - wait mastiffs don't need groomers - where are your jowels, what's your pedigree again? 

 

Maybe we should start a thread on age progression  and you can go first ;-) 

 

Good humor


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #55 

Chris,

 

Your wrinkle is fine, but your ears are set too low!

 

Do you have any bloodhound in your lineage?....LOL


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #56 

Here's a butt shot.  LOL  Pay attention to the name on the jersey.



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Chris Murphy
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Nicci

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Reply with quote  #57 

O God Jann they're not ingnoring you anymore...lol


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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #58 
Finally!!!!

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Nicci

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Reply with quote  #59 

Now all we have to wait on is Steve's "butt shot"....LOL


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #60 

From the OEM forum:

 

Being no judge, breeder nor exhibitor, but only an observer, I wish to contemplate on head type. Digging into antique prints figuring the Mastiff kind of dog, one is more than once surprised by their quite different fenotypes; one of the great naturalists, the Frenchman Georges-Louis Leclerc, Comte de Buffon [1707–1788], seemingly fashioned the short headed , thickset specimen [roughly comparable with ch. Wolsey bred by Mr. Edgar Hanbury while a/o the Germans Schinz/Brodtmann display a long more elegant example of ‘Die Englische Dogge’ [roughly comparable with ch. Turk bred by Miss Aglionby].

Nevertheless the marked difference between these examples [shorter headed & bodied against longer headed & bodied] of breed representatives, both need, in my opinion, to show that ‘bevelled off look’ in head i.o.w. the drop from the skull to the muzzle [in a lesser degree shown by bitches], before they even can deserve consideration regarding ‘true’ breed type ; this quality is, in my opinion, implemented by the combination of following standard phrasings ~ ‘ Head giving a square appearance ~ Forehead flat ~ Brows [superciliary ridges] slightly raised ~ Arch across the skull of a rounded flattened curve with a depression up the centre of the forehead to halfway the sagittal suture ‘ .

The par excellence reference is, in my opinion, displayed by Richard Hewitt Moore’ correct type of head , issued by the Old English Mastiff Club; it shows a depth of head, rather too little to be seen nowadays; the bevelled off look is also displayed [rather in a very strong way] by Barry painted by Mr. George Earl, and seemingly the favourite Mastiff of the XIX century breed purist Mr. Harry De Spencer Kingdon, champion of the Lyme Hall Mastiff.


Quite a number of breeds, a/o the Great Dane, shows parallel upperlines of skull & muzzle which is, in my opinion, undesirable in the Mastiff as it also doesn’t enhance depth of head in order to match length of head.

The general description of the body asks for a/o a long body; several authors, a/o Dr J Sidney Turner, mention that, due the law of Nature regarding symmetry, a long body most commonly is accompanied by a long reach of neck [standard requirement ‘moderately long’] and a long head [standard requirement ‘square’], hence the head needs to be large in order to become a correct balance in profile.

Fully aware of the fact that in the past faults were made by overestimating head qualities against overall sound structure & health, I’m happy that presently much more interest is paid to allround conformation & health but, in my opinion, it should be hard if that exquisite head character should rather be lost out of sight. And of course the head requisites are much more comprehensive, but what I pointed out is, in my opinion, something what has to be watched carefully in order to behold a head, unequalled by any other breed of dog, not in the meaning of size but in the quality of conformation.
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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #61 

That's not a butt shot!  LOL


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Chris Murphy
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NancyE

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Reply with quote  #62 

Lila, Tawny is out of my girl Kara and Greiner Hall Neo. She was around 6 weeks in those photos I think. She's 3 months old now.

She's a rich dark fawn, and has such a lovely head, and the most "seriously" sweet temperament. Just about as perfect as a baby Mastiff can get!  


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Monica

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Reply with quote  #63 

No kidding that's not a butt shot and we need to see some more head comparisons - coat's, etc., a current day head shot would be much appreciated - oh that would be directed to you Steve :-)

 

Anyway, everyone carry on with the doggy portion of the head thread while Steve is sifting thru photos...


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #64 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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GatehseMstf

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Reply with quote  #65 

That one reminds me a little of my Toby...

 



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Monica

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Reply with quote  #66 

I love that wrinkle!!!  I am really starting to like wrinkle lately.... What beautiful pics!


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Monica
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HollyJ

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Reply with quote  #67 
I love everyone's pictures, (of the dogs LOL) there are so many incredible mastiffs on this boar WOW!!!  This is another great discussion! I think the head is so important....I love wrinkles, and I love a b*tch who's got a gorgeous head

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #68 

I would like to hear opinions on what the English judge told me about his "correct" views on judging our mastiffs.

 

He used the OEM standard and used a 1:3 ratio on "proper muzzle to head ratio.

 

The AKC standard is 1:2 and it was an AKC show.

 

Should an American judge in England use a 1:2 ratio?

 

Was the judge correct?

 

Should our standard change?

 

What say you?


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LEXIMSTF

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Reply with quote  #69 

Hi ya,

 

I want to weigh in here b/c I had always thought that both standards called for the same measurements just worded differently; essentially broken into three parts, one for the muzzle and two for the skull. Is this not the case?

 

From the UK standard:

Length of muzzle to whole head and face as 1 : 3

 

From the U.S. standard:

Muzzle should be half the length of the skull, thus dividing the head into three parts-one for the foreface and two for the skull. In other words, the distance from the tip of the nose to stop is equal to one-half the distance between the stop and the occiput.

 

Below is a link to the Illustrated Breed Standard from the Mastiff Association Web site. It shows the same proportions called for in the AKC (U.S.) standard yet it is illustrating The Kennel Club (UK) standard. In fact the picture below and right of the correct head that is used to illustrate incorrect muzzle length (too short) shows more of that 1 part muzzle to 3 three parts skull.

 

http://www.mastiffassociation.com/Info/standard.htm

 

So is this illustration incorrect or do the standards indeed call for the same proportions? Thoughts?

 

 


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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #70 
I agree Erica.  It means the same thing, it is just written differently.  One says 1/3 the head, the other says it is divided into 3 parts.  One for the muzzle and two for the skull.  In other words, the distance from the tip of the nose to stop is equal to one-half the distance between the stop and the occiput. It is just written a little confusing.  If the skull were 2 inches deep and the muzzle is supposed to be half of that, then it would be 1 inch for the muzzle and 2 for the skull(3 inches for the total head.)  Hence the 1/3 ratio.  Lots of people get that confused, but it is still a one third ration. 

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #71 

It's confusing because it means two different things!

 

1:3 is not 1:2!

 

If the head is broken into 3 parts ( 1 for the muzzle and 2 for the head ) it's a 1:2 ratio!

 

When the OEM standard calls for a 1:3,  given their history from inception favoring the shorter muzzle, I believe it calls for a shorter muzzle to head compared to the AKC understanding!

 

Clarification on this issue is ESSENTIAL and has NOT been addressed for too many years!

 

What the hell is the MCOA waiting for????

 

Breeders are confused and it has created lots of variation in heads!

 

Gulf Mill dogs and Renrock dogs had a 1:2 AKC understanding of ratios in my opinion!

 

To say that it's the same as some of the shorter muzzled British dogs creates even more confusion!

 

I feel that 1:3 meant 1:3 to the founders of the English standard NOT 1:2!

 

Saying that they both mean the same thing is incorrect!

 

If the shorter muzzle was valued more, how can they both mean the same?

 

 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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giselle

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Reply with quote  #72 

I have always understood it to mean the same thing but I could be wrong.  The UK standard says:

 

Length of muzzle to whole head and face as 1 : 3

 

To me, in this ratio, the muzzle is the numerator and in the denomenator, you have the entire head (muzzle + face)

 

In the link that Erica posted from the UK club's interpretation of the standard, they show this...one part for the muzzle and two parts for the rest of the head, which to me, is the same thing as the AKC standard.

 

 

 


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #73 

 OEM standard
HEAD AND SKULL
  Skull broad between ears, forehead flat, but wrinkled when attention is excited. Brows [superciliary ridges] slightly raised. Muscles of temples and cheeks [temporal and masseter] well developed. Arch across skull of a rounded, flattened curve, with a depression up centre of forehead from median line between eyes, to half way up sagittal suture. Face or muzzle short, broad under eyes and keeping nearly parallel in width to end of nose; Truncated, i.e., blunt and cut off squarely, thus forming a right-angle with upper line of face, of great depth from point of nose to under-jaw. Under jaw broad to end. Nose broad, with widely spreading nostrils when viewed from front, flat [not pointed or turned up] in profile. Lips diverging at obtuse angles with septum, and slightly pendulous so as to show a square profile. Length of muzzle to whole head and face as 1/3. Circumference of muzzle [measured mid-way between eyes and nose] to that of head [measured before the ears] as 3/5.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #74 

AKC STANDARD:

 

Skull - broad and somewhat flattened between the ears, forehead slightly curved, showing marked wrinkles which are particularly distinctive when at attention. Brows (superciliary ridges) moderately raised. Muscles of the temples well developed, those of the cheeks extremely powerful. Arch across the skull a flattened curve with a furrow up the center of the forehead. This extends from between the eyes to halfway up the skull. The stop between the eyes well marked but not too abrupt. Muzzle should be half the length of the skull, thus dividing the head into three parts-one for the foreface and two for the skull. In other words, the distance from the tip of the nose to stop is equal to one-half the distance between the stop and the occiput. Circumference of the muzzle (measured midway between the eyes and nose) to that of the head (measured before the ears) is as 3 is to 5.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #75 

They need to be clear and remove any ambiguity!

 

The wording is confusing and some judges don't see pictures!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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