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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #1 

Are judges honest?

Are they influenced by professional handlers?

How political is "the game"?

Can an "all breed judge" really know all breeds well?

Who should judge?

Should they accept "favors"?

Should judges give a critique?

Is movement their final determining factor?


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #2 

It wouldn't be the first time!..................

 

Judge "A" gets assigned to judge the mastiffs at the Hounderville KC Dog Show.

 

It's a good assignment and there is a strong entry of 95 mastiffs.

 

Does judge "A" review the catalogue beforehand and look which sleeve number gets the "top" mastiff?

 

Would covered sleeve numbers promote fairer outcomes?

 

Why do some dogs keep winning each week, even though they are up against strong fields of other dogs every week?

 

Are the judges THAT good, or is something else going on?

 

Is the "safe" pick the judges rule of thumb?


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #3 

It wouldn't be the first time!..................

 

Judge "A" gets assigned to judge the mastiffs at the Hounderville KC Dog Show.

 

It's a good assignment and there is a strong entry of 95 mastiffs.

 

Does judge "A" review the catalogue beforehand and look which sleeve number gets the "top" mastiff?  They better not get caught!!!

 

Would covered sleeve numbers promote fairer outcomes?  Only if pro handlers were forced to wear bags over their heads too.

 

Why do some dogs keep winning each week, even though they are up against strong fields of other dogs every week?  Political only - I wouldn't know any other reason.

 

Are the judges THAT good, or is something else going on?  I'm starting to learn which judges to stay away from - there are those that are political and others that don't care who's on the end of the lead.  It's taken me 4 years, but I'm starting to peg what will happen before going in the ring with some judges, whether they are good or bad for me.

 

Is the "safe" pick the judges rule of thumb?  I've seen it go both ways, so it depends on the judge.


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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #4 
<>Are judges honest?
<>Are they influenced by professional handlers?
<>How political is "the game"?  I'd have to guess about 50-50.

Can an "all breed judge" really know all breeds well?  Probably not as well as the breeder judge knows his own breed and depends on how much time and energy a particular judge puts into learning other breeds.  It would take years of experience.

<>Who should judge?   Not sure on this question.<>
Should they accept "favors"?  Absolutely Not, but it probably happens.

I think most of the above questions are answered best by saying that it really does depend on the judge himself.  I think the answers would change from YES to NO, depending on which individual judge we're talking about.

<>Should judges give a critique?   I'd love to have critiques.<>
Is movement their final determining factor?  Again, depends on the judge - I've seen alot of them that don't care at all about movement, but I do feel that a higher percentage of judges put a premium on movemment.

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TamK

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Reply with quote  #5 
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Are judges honest? What do you mean by honest?

Are they influenced by professional handlers? A good part of the time especially if they were or are pro handlers. I really find it fascinating that a pro-handler can become a judge, judge for awhile and then go back to being a pro-handler. How convenient is that?

How political is "the game"? Very.

Can an "all breed judge" really know all breeds well? I don't think they know all breeds that well, but some do have infinite knowledge of their chosen group.

Who should judge? That's a good question.

Should they accept "favors"? Why do you ask that? Doug Shipley tried it and it didn't seem to work to well for him.

Should judges give a critique? We would be there all day if they gave critique's. Got to IABCA show if you want a critique. They are often judged by AKC judges. Shame half of them don't understand that they are suppose to be judging by the standard of the country of origin.

Is movement their final determining factor? Group YES, in the breed ring not as often.



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Tami
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #6 
Bump
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #7 

Just saw a dog show on TV.

 

The judge doing the toy group was up to the Pekingese. She picked him up felt through the fur and put him down. The handler proceeded to do his thing and the judge gave the Pek group 1!

 

Did I mention that the dog is the number one dog in the toy group this year?

 

Did I mention that the judge couldn't see any feet through that hair?

 

Did I mention that it was impossible for that judge to really understand what that dog had under that dense coat?

 

She picked that dog soley based on fame and type.

 

Tell me that the judge was not biased prior to the selection!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Cedarhollow

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Reply with quote  #8 

Steve - You said that the judge picked the dog up and felt through the hair...or was I miss-reading what you wrote? 

Also, do you know that the judge didn't already judge that dog at the breed level?  Often times the judge will NOT re-examine those dogs that they already judged in the breed ring...they will only examine (at the group level) the dogs that they did NOT judge in the breed ring.


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Jamie Morris
Cedarhollow Mastiffs
http://www.cedarhollowmastiffs.com

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a part of one's soul remains unawakened. ~ Anatole France
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #9 

She didn't do breed, she did group and she picked the dog up and felt it for 3 seconds.

It was obvious to me that she knew the dog's "fame" and picked it because of that!

 

The "safe" bet!

 

trust me when I tell you that when moving you just saw a ball of hair!

 

It could have been on wheels and she would have given it group!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #10 

baddabump


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #11 
This is how I feel about judging!!  Sometimes its probably fair and right and maybe sometimes its not.  I do my best with my dog and put on my nicest outfit, smile, did I mention do my best with my dog ;-) know that there are some politics invovled and have fun.  I consider having a show quality dog an extra perk and a fun hobby - the competition is fun, even if its putting on a nice outfit some days - ooops - did I say that   Another point is that if politics were so heavily involved that it made it impossible to get anywhere without being personally invovled in them - I woudn't show.  So far that doesn't seem the case for me and I'm having fun!! 

I have learned tho that showing, for me, is a sport and I will not confuse a title or lack thereof with which dogs would best suit each other in bettering this magnificent breed I have fallen so deeply in love with when it comes time for me to make the important decision on how a litter of pups will better the mastiff world.  I do believe however that attending dog shows is a GREAT way to learn about types and view dogs.


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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #12 


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #13 

Most of the books on judging, written by judges, are geared to the very subtle differences within certain breeds.

Those authors train the reader to see those minor disparities and in some breeds it is truly a difficult task and it takes a judge with a skilled eye and a total understanding of a clear standard to sort out those minor flaws.

To me, it's no wonder why we see so many variations of type put up by judges in mastiffs!

Talk about confusing!

In other breeds there is a nuance, or a small difference in proper length, or ear set that can win it for one dog over another. In our breed, there are a whole host of noticeable glaring anomalies that can occur between dogs in the ring.

Instead of a minor factor, which then enables the judge to determine his pick, the judge in mastiffs is often faced with a computational analysis going on internally and using non existent guidelines to determine the value of one dog over the next!

No wonder some judges just pick mastiffs based on movement!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #14 
Stating false remarks about what a judge didn't say, is a far cry from expressing one's personal experiences under a particular judge.

In the suit, there was an alleged conflict of interest thrown at the judge and the judge correctly responded on those allegedly false accusations!

If we believe that a judge likes movement over structure etc., as long as you say, "in my experience under this judge, I believe"........................it should be just fine!

For example, I believe that judge Taylor was using the OEM standard as his guide at an AKC show. The reason I know that, is that he told me so!

Now, I don't feel it's that big of a deal, after all, we invite British judges to assess our mastiffs and we should realize that they are bringing their system of judging these dogs with them, even though the AKC rules state otherwise!

If a judge knows his/her mastiffs, I could care less what standard they follow! Although technically, in this country it should be an AKC standard!

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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