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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #1 

This is not about Beethoven's 5th!

http://www.el-minjas.com/Movements.htm


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #2 

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Movement/locoindex.html

 

 

* see mastiff movement *


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #3 

http://www.dogwise.com/browse/SubCatList.cfm?SubCat=Gait

 

Books.............


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #4 

The desire for greater and greater size & bone, has brought some dogs to a point in which they could never have run down the king's deer! Perhaps the king's turtles, but certainly not the king's deer!

 

I wonder, at times, if some of the extremes that we see today, were really what the "old timers" had in mind!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #5 

That was interesting about the dog and horse.  I suggested on another board that I did not think the dog and horse had the same impulsion from behind.   Deanne, what do you think after seeing these?

I agree Steve that some dogs look as tho they cannot get too far.  It was interesting today for sure to see the choice of dogs that the judge put up.  She went for the leaner dogs for the most part, except when it came to BOB... and some of the leaner dogs were not moving any better than the bigger boned dogs... 

 

What say you?


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #6 

What say me?...LOL

 

I wasn't there Monica!...LOL


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #7 

Hmmm are you sure, I could swear I saw you lurking over by the ice cream vendor.....

 

Steve says:

 

The desire for greater and greater size & bone, has brought some dogs to a point in which they could never have run down the king's deer! Perhaps the king's turtles, but certainly not the king's deer!

 

I wonder, at times, if some of the extremes that we see today, were really what the "old timers" had in mind!

 

Monica says:

 

I asked "what say you" to use your words - with regard to the fact that I saw very large dogs today moving really well - not all, but several and I saw more slight builds of dogs not moving that well - some did move well. 

 

Do you have any input on that in relation to your above "wonder?"

 

I do wonder the same thing that you wrote above about what the "oldtimers" had in mind - but after today... I'm not sure that's the question du jour... :-)  But maybe I didn't see any "extremes" today.  You told me to keep my eyes open, I did and now am commenting....


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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #8 
Uhhh, ok. Nobody is gonna believe this, but I have actually seen this in person and I actually have it on tape.  Parts of it are now being shown as an educational video by the local game warden.  I would offer to share, but a family member is also shown in a compromising position during the filming. LOL Let's just say that at a certain point in the event, you see the screen go upside down and have a nice shot a rear end and the scene, then rear end and the scene. LOL  If any of you ever visit I will play it for you(some have already seen it).  There were two bitches and a male and a deer all in a fenced in area of about 2 acres. The buck was in rut and standing his ground for a long time.  The dogs just stood in a semi circle between it and the house.  Then one of my family members got the bright idea to go outside and film the deer.  It turned towards her and the dogs went after it.  The male was a very tall, but daney boy.  Much taller than the girls.  He was also very young though.  He was rolled down the hill by the buck and completelt useless.  The two girls that were about 29 inches and very thick.  They did take the buck down twice and I am sure would have killed it if I had not intervened.  Before anyone gets in an uproar about it, I was there and did my best to keep it from happening.  Deer come on the property with the dogs all the time.  They typically bark and they go away.   When it did happen, I called the dogs back and shot the deer.  If it had not been on video I would have been issued a citation for shooting deer out of season.  The game warden did not believe the deer charged us or the dogs till he saw the tape!!!  I was the person that called him and asked him to come get the carcass!!!  I kept the antlers.  I guess they were both Deer Runnin dogs then!  LOL  Actually one bitch was and one wasn't.  The Deer didn't see the difference when they were on his back!!!  Here are their pictures.

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #9 

Monica,

Some of the 250 lb + dogs can appear to "move" well in a ring, but would die of a heart attack, if they had to run down deer on a hot summer day! 

 

The mastiffs back "when", were never as large as the mastiffs which we see today in the ring.

 

 

 

 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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madchemist

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Reply with quote  #10 

Steve,

If you are looking to run deer down with dogs perhaps you need to get yourself a scottish deerhound.  Here in virginia, walker hounds, plotts, and blue ticks are used for deer hunting. 

 

It is my understanding that the "english mastiff" has been bred to be an estate gaurdian.  This suggests to me that they gaurd agaist MEN with ill intentions.  Even the fattest mastiff can easily run a man down and dispatch him with a quickness.  Unless the deer in your area are vicious marauders I wouldn't worry too much about whether the mastiff can run him down.


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #11 

I agree with you 100%

 

I'm just stating the historical evidence and relating that to todays mastiffs!

 

Mastiffs were never meant to be coursing hounds and I'm not implying that at all!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #12 

My husband always says Harley moves like a horse well I know she sounds like one when she runs and tears up the lawn.My father inlaw has horses and you can see a lot of Harley in them.These pics were taken when she just turned a year her favorite game ball.I know she is small boned but she is fast and yes she chases deers off my property I dont know if she could take one down she just likes to chase them off because they are in her yard .


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Monica

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Reply with quote  #13 

Even tho I love deer - stop to let them cross the road, honk to get them out of the road - still like to gaze at them whenver I can - that was a pretty good story....  

 

Steve, I do understand your point completely regarding what some of the mastiffs of days past were able to do vs. what some of the mastiffs of today are able to do.  The world has evolved and so have people and thus the mastiff.  Men and woman thought differently back then - more practically - their are different influences now....  As a newbie I would like to believe, hope and strive for (if I ever breed) the continuing better evolution of the matiff, keeping in mind that we still want our hopefully better evolved dogs to function as the "old timers" wished they would.  That might be getting it "all."  One day maybe! 

 

 


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Monica
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Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
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oldschool

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Reply with quote  #14 

Steve wrote:

Some of the 250 lb + dogs can appear to "move" well in a ring, but would die of a heart attack, if they had to run down deer on a hot summer day!

The mastiffs back "when", were never as large as the mastiffs which we see today in the ring.


Steve, I hate to say it, but this blanket statement is incorrect. One of our largest mastiffs actually did run down and kill (and disembowel) a deer in our back yard on a hot summer day (in Virginia). He did have the help of another mastiff (a pretty hefty bitch) but they stayed together and worked as a team to bring the deer down in a very short amount of time (less than 5 minutes... it seemed to happen so fast, they caught it before I could even get to them, and I was about 50 yards away when the chase started). I had never seen this dog run before. He was so laid back that he tended to use a slow trot as his top speed, even on the way to breed a bitch. Mom had to use an ATV to show train him because she couldn't run fast enough to break him out of a walk because he was a combination of really tall, long, and lazy.... Sweetest dog too, he was never ever aggressive, and he loved my horse, but there was something about a running deer that compelled him to chase.


This is the 250+ pound dog in question (much older in these pics than when it happened):







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Jess
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PrayerboxMastiff

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Reply with quote  #15 

Jess I love your dogs!! I am a very big fan of Old Schoo Mastiffs. I get on your site often. I actually was aquanted with your dogs threw Jen Walters Bearhill Mastiffs who talks very highly of your kids. Candi http://www.prayerboxmastiff.com

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Monica

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Reply with quote  #16 

Jess, I was just on your site today.... speaking of movement - I found the video of Gorn - I wanted to see what he looked like - I am still learning but  to me that dog could move - of course he was not chasing a deer, but I don't think that would have been an issue!! 


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Monica
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #17 

Jess,

 

The dogs must have had their "headlights" on!...LOL


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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giselle

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Reply with quote  #18 
bump

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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #19 
When you see an 8 month old puppy move and it looks like he is "flipping" his front feet vs. reaching out, could that be puppy growth or is it structural?

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #20 

Either could be the case!

 

Not enough info to go on.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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EileenDurante

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Reply with quote  #21 

IMHO this should be required viewing for judges and breeders of any breed.

 

CANINE CINERADIOGRAPHY DVD: A STUDY OF BONE AND JOINT MOTION AS SEEN THROUGH MOVING X-RAYS

 

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DAN124

 

Slow motion study of canine bone and joint movement, as seen through moving x-rays, offers a close look at skeletal action inside the dog. Dogs were individually filmed and fluoroscoped while moving on a speed-controlled treadmill in a laboratory. Different types of dogs were chosen to illustrate different ways of moving, some showing normal structure and gait, others with faulty action due to serious orthopedic problems. The study includes x-ray views from the side as well as views from beneath the moving dog. For better understanding the narration is clarified with plain text captions and graphic effects as a veterinarian explains what the film is revealing, and how variances in structure help or hinder performance. This video supplements Dogsteps video with additional material; it was filmed during the same time period, but has recently been re-mastered.


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #22 

I highly recommend the DVD by Rachael Page Elliot.

 

All newbies and experienced breeders, need to have a full understanding of the dynamics of proper movement.

 

Here is a video excerpt from the DVD!

 

http://www.dogwise.com/video/video.cfm?itemid=DAN123


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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gryarvold

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Reply with quote  #23 

I have to say that Hermes is one of those big males that until you see him run full out will swear that he can't get beyond a slow lope.  His slow lope is a smooth effortless motion that makes him appear as if he is almost floating.  It appears as one continual motion with out break.  The only other male that I have seen come any where close is Sherman and even he isn't as smooth.  Hermes can go from zero to sixty in no time flat from a stand still and cover ground like you wouldn't believe.  I truly do believe that he would be able to bring down a full grown buck with ease.  He almost did a full grown man.  He jogs behind the car every day when it's cool about 2 miles.  When it's hot he lays in the house or swims in the lake.  So I would have to say that no size is not a factor for good mastiff movement.


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Lori Jenkins
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #24 
Bumping to save thread
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #25 
Bump

http://www.dogwise.com/video/video.cfm?itemid=DAN123

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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