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Reply with quote  #26 

Movement of a 2000 pound Belgian

=


 

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oldschool

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Reply with quote  #27 
Large, heavily boned Mastiffs can and should move well. I think any of these could have "run down a deer on a hot summer day" without having a heart attack:








And this one actually did run down a deer on a hot summer day (see my post above for the story):


Though I'd consider him not to be the best mover, he was tight and clean, but moved a little close behind, and without the extension (reach/drive) and fluidity of the dogs above. Decent mover, but not great. But still capable of taking down a deer with some herding help from a young bitch. Mastiffs are about the brains and brawn! ;-)


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #28 
Terrific vid's Jess!

Thanks much!

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #29 
Thanks Jess! I just subscribed to your youtube You've got videos up of 3 of my pup's relatives
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Reply with quote  #30 
Thank you so much Jess!

Barrie
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #31 

Fortunately for our breed, it usually takes 3 years+ for dogs to come into their full weight and in so doing, they will move slower than they did when they were younger!

I say fortunately, because most people show their dogs and finish them before they reach full maturity. The reduced weight helps those dogs compete and it's not unusual to see better moving pointed dogs win over specials.

A heavy dog will not glide as easily as it's lighter weight counterpart and there needs to be a reference in the standard addressing this aspect, which would reduce any negativity, in respect to judging larger dogs, based only on movement.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #32 

On another forum, I viewed a thread on movement.

Some people put up their dogs on video to show how they moved.

There was one nice looking dog that was straight in the rear and didn't have the forward reach needed by the rear legs to move really well. He was a powerful looking dog and was nice in many other respects save that.

I mention this here, because nothing was mentioned there!

Either the poster who put the video up thinks that their dog moves well, doesn't care, or they were never told the truth.

The main issue in learning about anything, is the ability to discuss an issue openly. If feelings might get hurt, or relationships bruised, then most people remain silent and nothing is learned.

What's the purpose of putting up a video of a dog, if it can't be objectively  critiqued?

A dog can be sound, but not structurally matched. Those are the dogs that get us into the most problems at times, because they look very good and appear to be very well knit, yet they are out of balance.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #33 
Did this poster say-- here is the perfect moving Mastiff?  You must realize we all just love our dogs and are proud of them and sometimes just have a new camera........where do we get the right to come in every time to critique?  Sometimes it is just out of love we do things.

Remember sometimes we show our children's picture..........did you ever wonder how so many ugly kids are out there and yet the parents think they are beautiful?  Little nice comments do not always hurt!  You can find something to say that is appropriate.  Notice APPROPRIATE is Key word!

NO Ask NO Tell...........is a good policy
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pilgrimspal

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Reply with quote  #34 
Deb,

I just had to respond! 
I love your comments on children!  I had just stepped away from my dog -who is child # 4, unless you count spouses too, then #5  who was sprawled out on the cool floor resting, I had my arms around his neck and smooching his slobbery face saying "You are the most handsome boy around, give me kisses!"  and then I came back and read your post and it made me laugh!!!

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #35 
We're talking about improving the breed and nobody twisted any arms on those who posted their movement videos!

If no comments are made, viewers cannot begin to understand what they are observing under a topic labelled "movement"!

If it's all just about posting "kids" photos, then what's the point of a forum?

All you need to do is start a photo forum and nobody need comment on any issue!

I'm not talking about tearing a dog apart!

All I'm saying, is that if we want to learn what to look for and breed better mastiffs, we need to discuss those very issues in an objective light!

Otherwise, incorrect structure, movement & type, will rule the day and the parade of mediocrity will continue it's 100 year long procession!

Children still get nose jobs!

Mastiffs aren't as fortunate!

We're supposed to breed out faults!



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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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SilverKnight

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Reply with quote  #36 
What age was the dog we are discussing?

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Monica

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Reply with quote  #37 
I agree with Deborah on this one Steve.  I saw that thread and commented as well in it.  I can surmise which dog you might be discussing, but if people don't ask, you don't offer.

Maybe some could offer up movement videos here that they felt comfortable having critiqued.  But chatting about what's on other boards is not very nice......

If you are a member, why don't you post what you wrote here over there and see if they'd like to discuss it - that's really where it belongs since that is where it started....

If I had a video camera and knew how to upload - I let you all have a go at my three....



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Monica
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Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #38 
Monica,

I never mentioned the board, the dog, the breed, or the owner!

You're the one bringing that closer, not me.

I'm just stating that nothing gets learned if we can't review things that we see!

The opposite is just as damaging as you profess talking about it can be!

If videos are shown as correct movement, or implied that it is correct by coming under the heading of a "MOVEMENT" thread, then that can be very misleading to people looking to learn something from these forums!

I'd rather take some heat on this subject and open some eyes, then just remain quiet and observe the compliments given out to dogs that aren't deserving in that department!

But that's just me!

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #39 
You are right that nothing was implied about "good" or "bad" or otherwise movement.  It was just videos of movement, but I certainly didn't conclude that they were professing the movement on any of the dogs was good, bad or otherwise - they were just videos. 

My point was that you should discuss those vidoes over there.  Why discuss it here when we cannot look at the videos?  We can't discuss what we don't see...

I also chimmed in that it would be nice if we put up some videos here to talk about movement and what we see or can change.

I am in favor of that and all three of my dogs move differently, as well are built differently.   I think it would be educational if we did that here.  I am not sure how many of us can actually make that happen LOL!!~ I will need to go buy a new, smaller and state of the art video recorder..... hee hee- that's not a bad idea tho.


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Monica
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Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #40 
I'm still not sure why you are not discussing this on the board where the videos were posted???? and on this board and another, but not there.....

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Monica
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Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #41 
It's a general observation being made which applies to ALL forums!

Perhaps this fine site posted on another forum by Wende Welch, will add some educational value to this thread!

http://www.apbtconformation.com/movement.htm

Enjoy!

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #42 

There are many breed forums to learn about movement. If we don't focus on other breeds, especially breeds that are very closely related to mastiffs, we only do a disservice to those looking to learn about proper movement.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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emarsh

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Reply with quote  #43 
Thanks Jess for posting these vids on YouTube - it is wonderful to see these dogs that I have heard so much about -

Thanks
Erika


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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #44 


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #45 
http://accad.osu.edu/~hcaprett/COTA_741_sp04/CanineLO_090504.html

From K.D. to preserve the site!

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #46 

I was just about to post that site...it is very good!

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #47 

Bump for topic re: Gait


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #48 
Illustrated commentary on the AKC BMD Breed Standard
BMD Forequarters

This dog has a narrow chest and is toed out. Notice the rear leg falls outside the plane of frontquarters movement. The column of support breaks at elbow and pastern.

This dog is moving wide in front. Notice the chest appears wider than the rear quarters. The rear legs and front legs are not following through in the same plane.

These two examples on the right show front and rear legs on each side following through in the same plane. At increased speed their legs tend to converge toward the center line.

Notice the column of support is a straight line. Observe the rear leg is moving in the same plane as the front leg. There is good breadth to the front and rear quarters.

This dog shows the elbows are well under the shoulder when standing. Notice the angle formed by the scapula and humerous.

This dog shows a more open angle formed by the humerous and scapula. The elbow further towards the front of the ribs. The front of the chest is flat.

Straight shoulders are often seen in Bernese. Angulation is the foundation for muscle structure. Poor shoulder angulation does not allow for substantial muscle structure which lends strength and stability to forequarters. Angulation of the forequarters influences head carriage and the manner in which the neck ties in to the back. A balanced dog will have forequarters and rearquarters angulation that work well together.

Good front showing elbows well under shoulder

Out at elbows ~ toes in

This dog is elbowing out. The column of support breaks at the elbow.

This dog is wide chested and toes in. The column of support breaks at the pastern.

Forearms inclined slightly ~ toed out

Narrow chest ~ knock knees ~ toes out

Weak pasterns ~ thin feet

The shoulders are moderately laid back, flat-lying, well-muscled and never loose. The legs are straight and strong and the elbows are well under the shoulder when the dog is standing. The pasterns slope very slightly. but are never weak. Dewclaws may he removed. The feet are round and compact with well-arched toes. Front and rear legs on each side follow through in the same plane. At increased speed, legs tend to converge toward the center line.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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