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Crossroads

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Reply with quote  #1 

I have done some reading on all of these reproductive options, but I would like to get some opinions from experienced breeders. I know of some breeders that never do natural breedings and others that always try that first. I also know of some who will do an AI then follow it up with a natural tie a day or so later.

What factors into the decision? The distance between male and female geographically, money, the size of the dogs (whether the male is too big for the female to hold him), the conception rate?

I know most breeders like to have a medium size litter to give the puppies the best chance and keep things manageable for mom. Is one method of reproduction more likely to produce larger litters?


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Jennifer Patterson
Crossroads Mastiffs
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"Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American GI....one died for your soul, the other died for your freedom"
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Smoknlad

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Reply with quote  #2 
Its been my experience that a natural is always the best, but some males are to heavy and the bitch can't support their weight. I generally go the surgical route, first of all it only takes 20 minutes on the table its 95% accurate if the timing is right. the other way is trans-cervical with a scope the vet can see if everything is okay and put the semen right at the entrance of the uterus, and the egg's are inseminated immediately. I never do just an A.I. it takes days to reach the egg's and with scaring or other problems sometimes the semen never reach the uterus.
Size of litter is timing and number egg's dropped.
I hope this helps. Marianne

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Marianne Jackson
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #3 

Whichever route one takes - how do you know when the timing is right?

 

Or is it different depending on which method you use, especially natural cover - would you put the male with the female several times over a few days or just once when you know the time is right?


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Monica
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Smoknlad

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Reply with quote  #4 
You do progesterone testing. I generally start it on the sixth day and get either a base line reading or a little higher. That gives you how fast or slow she is moving. When she hits 2.0 you are going to be breeding usually within five days. But you want to take another one or two test. This is determined on whether or not you are doing natural, fresh chilled or frozen. with a natural you have the semen living in some cases up to ten days in the bitch. fresh chilled usually 3-5 days and frozen 12 hours. So you have to be real specific on the frozen timing. Hope this helps. Marianne
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Marianne Jackson
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #5 

Thanks Marianne - I'm just learning this stuff and its good to know a bit and then go looking for the details - (look a little/chat a little).  Sometimes it makes the "finding of the details" easier and quicker when I know what I'm looking for.  Some articles on the web I am finding can be really long and half way thru I find myself thinking I might not be exactly where I wanted to go... Thanks! 

 

So, with the natural method - when that number gets to the right place, do you allow the bitch and male to be together just one time (is that enough) or will you allow it a few times over a few days? 


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Monica
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Reply with quote  #6 

here is a good web site http://www.caninesemenbank.com

 

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Smoknlad

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Reply with quote  #7 
Monica, usually a bitch will except a male if she knows him and will let him play "catch me if you can" games. for the first couple of days.Then if they can they will breed. Let me make this real clear, she has to know him, generally live with him or is use to him. If he is a stranger who knows, bitches do have personally quirks (hormones). And she my hand him his face. Its up to her, if you are naturally breeding. Worst case if its not going to work, Go to the vet and let him do the collecting and insemination.
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Marianne Jackson
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #8 
Thanks guys/gals - that will be way down the road for me - is interesting and I am gathering so I can nest one day :-)  Need to up my eye glass perscription from reading on the computer so much lately - not the best for the eyes....
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Monica
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Reply with quote  #9 

My repro vet says to start progesterone testing at days 7-9.  For Bling, we waited until day 13, because I knew it wasn't time yet (Sinatra's nose knows!).  I believe she began to ovulate on day 20.

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #10 

I once rigged up a salad ladle, then used some aquarium tubing and threaded it through the ladle. Next I injected the semen into the tubing and blew the semen into the brood bitch after inserting the ladle.

 

63 days later........puppies!

 

I didn't know which salad dressing to use on them, but such is life!

 

Post script:  The vet used his fancy devices and failed in a prior attempt with the same bitch!...LOL

 

30 years ago................true story!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #11 

Steve, thank you for saving me from more reading... I knew there had to be a simpler more straight forward passage.... 7-9 days -20th day, number measurings, doctor, no doctor, natural, desiring bitches, face chewing bitches, male noses know best   

 

I have decided on the ladle approach but I don't think it will work if I use dressing - modern technology....  Jann - next round of fancy babies you can pass me a girl, I'm ready now ;-)

 

You all know I'm kidding.....and making fun of the learning curve...

 

 


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Monica
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #12 

It depends on who you talk to.

 

Some don't want too many days between matings, because the eggs can fertilize at different intervals and then you can get pups a few days older than some others.

 

Another view, is that as long as the female is receptive let them go at it.

 

Some feel that sperm count will diminish with too many consecutive breedings.

 

I say, let nature take it's course!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Crossroads

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Reply with quote  #13 

About how much can one expect to pay for an artificial insemination at the vets office?  What about a surgical implant? (I know this will vary depending on the area and the vet.)  Are AI's done just one time or do you do them more than once like natural breedings?


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Jennifer Patterson
Crossroads Mastiffs
http://www.crossroadsmastiffs.com

"Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American GI....one died for your soul, the other died for your freedom"
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Reply with quote  #14 

Jennifer,

In an ideal world, I think natural is probably best for the breed.  With that said, I would not ever let my boy breed naturally with an outside bitch (one he doesn't live with) for his own safety.  Things can get dicey w/ natural breedings in this breed and you need several experienced people to help.  I have assisted w/ a few naturals and they went well, but I could definately see where things could go wrong quickly.  Also, with availability of chilling and freezing of semen, it's nice that we aren't limited to dogs local to us.  I have done both SI's and AI's.  If you are using frozen, an SI is imperitive IMO.  With fresh chilled or side-by-side, an AI or TI is definately an option.  Progesterone testing is very useful.  I must say that both times I have bred my own bitches, my own in tact males have definately been right on target w/ their behavior at the time of ovulation.  Both of these boys have bred naturally before.  (One was a Great Dane and one is Sinatra).

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Smoknlad

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Reply with quote  #15 
Hi Jennifer,
My vet is wonderful and works with breeders. Most vets don't like to. So find a repo vet and usually the charge for surgical is a one time implant for $300.thats here in Phoenix. If you go either a regular A.I. or Trans.C. you are doing it usually twice and the price will end up being the same as a surgical.
Steve is right, when you breed over a period of 5-6 days you are dealing with pups ready to be born and others not near ready. When I breed naturally my males will only breed two days straight. Semen lives for many days. Good luck. Marianne

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Marianne Jackson
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #16 
Bump
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #17 
Bumping to save thread
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #18 

http://www.vetmed.lsu.edu/eiltslotus/theriogenology-5361/dog--white_2.htm


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Michelle

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Reply with quote  #19 

Nature took its own course in my house and only ONE time ... we got 9 puppies.  My breeder ALWAYS tries a natural breeding, and she will let them breed every other day for about a week if the bitch is receptive.


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Michelle ~ Vegas and Cowboy
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Reply with quote  #20 
I know that I'm late on this topic but will add my 2 cents.

My success rate with these three types of breeding is as follows:
Zero % for old fashioned AI. Other breeders I talk with are around 30%.
80% or close to that for surgical implants.
80% or close to that for live ties.

I am not trying AI's anymore. Its SI's or live for my breeding program. I also prefer the live breedings now as its less stress on the female and working well for me. Its alot more work but I have a good way of helping them.  
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #21 
Duane,
Have you tried the trans-cervical method.  I've had pretty good luck with that in the past.  Regular AI's have been bad for me too.


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Reply with quote  #22 
Jann,
I have not tried the trans-cervical yet. I need to talk to my repro vet about it and learn more about it. Have you had good luck with it?
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Reply with quote  #23 
Jann,
I guess what I meant to say about have you had good luck is can you tell me about the results? Is the cost lower than a SI?
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #24 
Hi Duane,
Yes, Bob and I have both had good luck with the TCI's.  The cost is around $120.00 and the surgicals have been around $500.00.  I've recently done a surgical, with a follow up TCI the next day.  The only thing about TCI's is that they usually can't get through the cervix because the scope doesn't reach..  It always gets right to the cervix, and is much better than a regular AI.  You can see it on the camera and is very interesting to watch.  We had good luck the other day - they actually got through the cervix for the first time on one of my girls.


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Reply with quote  #25 

I agree with Duane...natural breeding is a lot more work for the breeder, but I think it's likely better for the breed as a whole to do things naturally.  I say this as I've done two S.I.'s ....but one was with frozen and one with shipped semen.  I don't think I would do AI with either cases.  I know of too many instances where it didn't take.  I'd rather do AI side by side (or natural).

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