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Monica

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Reply with quote  #1 

What does researching a pedigree really mean.

For me, a newbie, it meant looking at the five generations of the parents of the litter I was going to choose from, noting how many champions and how many heath clearances there were. Then it meant asking questions of my breeder. It was pretty simple to me then...

7 months into mastiff ownership and thoughts of doing some breeding way down the road - the thought of pedigree research has taken on new meaning. This is mostly because of threads I have read on another board over the last several months. There have been lots of postings of hysterical content as well as pedigree.

I was wondering what opinions are out there about what pedigree research really looks like and means - i.e., how far do you go, do you ever REALLY know and after the research is there something you do further before deciding?


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Monica
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Nicci

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Reply with quote  #2 

Hey I'd like to know too... cause some of it makes my eyes cross!! I get info overload and can't remember what goes with what!! lol


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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #3 
I think your first statement:

For me, a newbie, it meant looking at the five generations of the parents of the litter I was going to choose from, noting how many champions and how many heath clearances there were.  Then it meant asking questions of my breeder. It was pretty simple to me then...

covers it pretty good.  Health is very important, but the championship title doesn't actually mean as much to me.  There are some great dogs out there that have never been shown.  Most dogs that have their championships come from responsible breeders, so it's always a plus.  When breeding, picking a dog that will compliment your dog or bitch is important.  That's first for me, then going on to research it's pedigree for health issues is next. 


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Monica

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Reply with quote  #4 

So Jann, how do you research that pedigree.  For example - you find a dog that you like and all looks good in his pedigree line - how do you know there is not some whacy recessive gene back somewhere that will show up?  Is this where the no guarantee really comes into play?

 

For example - epilepsy - how do you know if its not documented until a litter of pups is having seizures and then its still not documented - only speculated.  How do you really know with some things? 

 

 


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Monica
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #5 

Monica,

 

In my experience, mastiffs are one of the most difficult dogs to breed.

 

As you already know, I've been talking about most of those issues on the other forum.

 

The pedigrees are useful tools, but they are not the most important tool.

 

The most important tool is a trained eye!

 

Pedigrees are usually horizontal and only verticle pedigrees can give you important information. ( google it, there are lots of sites )

 

CH. in a pedigree is like the present heavy-weight belt in boxing. There are lots of belts and they don't mean what they once did. The same thing applies for the championship titles in dogs. Almost any dog, if it campaigns long enough, can get a CH.

 

When looking at a pedigree, the English CH's have more meaning than the American CH.

 

Seek out a breeder which you can trust and even if they don't have pups on the ground they can still advise you where to go if your need for a pup is immediate. Pay them a fee if need be for their time and sincere efforts in finding you a good dog, but remember with mastiffs there are no guarantees that you'll wind up with a dog that you desired from the start. That's the risk we ALL take with this breed, at this point in time!

 

S.O.

 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #6 

OFA does a great job at explaining the vertical pedigree ( http://www.offa.org ).  I agree that in terms of health the vertical pedigree is important, but so is the horizontal pedigree.  Every pedigree in Mastiffs has a plethera of possible health issues waiting to pop out.  There is really no way for a breeder to predict the majority of these issues knowing that a lot of the genes are polygenetic and recessive.  I do think pedigree research is very important...it's not that one line is superior to others, but there are some lines that mesh really well together and others that don't.  I do think that you need to rely on pedigree for consistency in type and structure.   I am still learning in this area.

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TamK

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Reply with quote  #7 
Guess I'll jump in since I was asked too. For a new breeder the most important thing is to attend specialties and shows with large mastiff entries, that is where you can really get your hands on some mastiffs and see genterations of mastiffs. Visit all the local kennels in your area, go to dog shows with a catalog and take notes, you can also order tapes from specialties. I have found you have to do your own research, don't depend on anyone. Study up on genetic's, learn as much as you can, there are some fantastic sites and books out there. Study the difference between line and outcross breedings, learn about linebreeding coefficient. Learn to discuss mastiffs in a calm undecending tone, have a open mind and you'll find people will share much more with you. If you have the attitude that we're all here to learn, you will. Pedigree's are great, but until you know the dogs they are just names on paper.
Some of my best learning experiences are from watching specialty tapes with other people, sometimes they point things out that I just didn't notice.
Seems daunting, but breeding can drive you crazy experienced or not.

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StergoMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #8 

Hello Everyone, and Thanks for the invite!

 

My two cents about researching a pedigree that hasn't been mentioned yet is this:

When your looking at a pedigree you see a bunch of names.  If there are CH. most of the time those dogs you may be able to get more information about.  If there are not Ch then you have to search a little harder.  When searching pedigrees you don't stop with the names that are on the pedigree!  each one of those dogs has brothers and sisters..

Examples so maybe Monica can understand (wink wink) 

 

when looking at a pedigree of my puppy... I have the sire and the dam (two dogs) but when I research those two dogs that you see on paper I assume there are at least 10. (5 siblings for each parent)  Lets say the parents are tested for everything under the sun and passed.  that looks awesome on paper doesn't it?  But with further research I find out that three of the litter mates to the mom was dysplastic... to me that means that even though the mom passed.. she more than likely is a carrier.  Then when you get to the grand parents (4 of them times 5) you are now dealing with 20 more dogs..   You want to see dogs that are very similar to each other..

 

My point is, pedigree research is a lot more than just dogs on paper, and their health testing etc.

 

 

 

 


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Jennifer W
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StergoMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #9 

I take my comment back... Verticle pedigrees do tell about siblings... I just wanted to explain a little easier for some people. 

 

sorry!


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Jennifer W
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #10 

Thanks all.  I have yet to look up the sites that Steve and Kristen posted.  Great info.  Jennifer thanks for the "wink" info - that is really what was in the back of my mind when I started this thread was "man, this is a lot of work - and yes you have to research past the paper just like to you said. 

 

Then there is training your eye - that's an entirely other course.

 

Then going to shows, learning the dogs, coming home checking out their pedigree. 

 

Right now I'm taking "show dog watching 101" and "training the eye pre-entry..." 

 

Thanks everyone ;-)

 

Oh and when I wrote ***There have been lots of postings of hysterical content as well as pedigree.*** Above - I meant historical - not hysterical... but I think you all knew that.  Will try to spell check better...


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Monica
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NancyE

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Reply with quote  #11 

When I research a pedigree the first thing I do is write it all out on a blank pedigree form. Doing this helps me memorize the dogs so I'll be able to recognize them whenever I see anything related.

 I spend a lot of time on OFA's site, looking up every dog I can find related to the individual dogs. When I said I researched my stud dog's pedigree backward, forward and sideways, it meant I looked for parents and grandparents, ect, also siblings and half- siblings, perhaps most important is offspring, I also pay attention to offspring of siblings.

Health tests are important and I wish more people would include ALL testing results.  I believe the reason most people don't is because of some people's belief that health testing is the end-all. I firmly believe it is not.

 CH titles (and the other titles!) are great but they are not taking into account the many dogs who have tremendous quality but belong to owners who have never shown, or perhaps have been shown but due to any number of circumstance have never been finished.

 You really must take into consideration an individual dog's phenotype, temperament and it's overall soundness. Then expand this to include all of the dogs you can gather information about.

 Nothing is better then personal knowledge of all the dogs in a pedigree, which is why people who have been in the breed for many years, and especially those who have their own established lines, are at such a great advantage.   


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Nancy
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #12 

Funny that you mention that. In the 70's there was little information getting out, in part, because there were no computers or internet!

 

At Massalane, Maxine's lines went back strongly to Kisumu and yet she didn't see many of those dogs in her pedigrees. I spent many hours at their facility and home showing her pictures of Kisumu dogs from my collection.

 

If you go to the "historical thread" on this site, you can see a few Kisumu dogs and also notice the long legs and lack of depth in the chest. These structural features were passed on to a number of dogs which came out of Massalane!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #13 

Thanks everyone - this is good info - now to get started..... 


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Monica
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #14 

http://devinefarm.net/dvf/


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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giselle

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Reply with quote  #15 

The devine farm pedigree program is great. I got mine recently and it's been a lot of fun using.  It even computes inbreeding coefficients and relationship coeffiecients (which dogs contribute more strongly in a pedigree)...it can highlight dogs that are being line bred on in different colors, etc etc.  The tests are there and sometimes there are notes about when they were used at studs, when they died, their health testing, and for some years, whether they were entered in the specialty.Owners names are there for some dogs as well.  Very cool tool for pedigree research. 

 

As an aside, I just found out through the program that  my rescue girl Gracie was shown in the 1995 specialty in the 6-9 class!  (if anyone has the video, i would love to have a copy of the 6-9 bitch class to see my girl as a pup -- it would make my CENTURY). 

 

 


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Giselle
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Reply with quote  #16 

I personally would not use the OFA as a make it or break it deal for a puppy that I was thinking of buying.  I have heard stories where people'd dogs fail the OFA and then "Doctor Hop" until they find a Dr. that will pass them.  I personally would get as much information about the breeder I could get and then go from there.  Better yet a mentor would be the best person to explain pedigrees.

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #17 

From 1982 NEMF newsletter ( with Tobin Jackson in mind )



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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #18 

pt2



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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #19 

Please note*  I scanned this and copied it from the old newsletter. I was not responsible for type setting the copy of the newsletter and the newsletter was notorious for their spelling errors etc.

 

The above practice, although meant to be funny, unfortunately was not a rare occurrence here or abroad.

 

There was no real proof in hand at that time, but I felt it needed to be said.

 

In time, the suspicions proved valid!!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #20 

When breeding ONLY by pedigree.............

 

Disasters will happen!

 

Sire:



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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #21 

Dam:

 

 



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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #22 

Unfortunately, Blackpools Eclipse " Bronco", developed a neurological disease, which affected his muscle tone and movement.

 

I was going to keep him and he was my pick of this litter, but a couple came along who just loved him. I sold him as a show quality dog and when the diagnosis was made months later, needless to say, I became the "bad" guy!

 

I offered to take him back and I also didn't get paid for the pup for the 1/2 balance that was due. It didn't matter to the owners.......I was the "bad" guy!

 

They complained to the MCOA and I was cleared by the MCOA, but it was a real heart breaking event. No matter how sincere I was to the buyers......"I was STILL the bad guy"!

 

This is the dilemma which faces ALL dedicated breeders, when they attempt to linebreed, or inbreed. You never know what is going to emerge and the best of intentions can still cause you tons of grief! It is not just limited to linebreeding!

 

I've shared this with all of you and posted the pedigree, in order for you to see how wonderful things can look on paper!

 

The best laid plans.....................

 

 



__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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PrayerboxMastiff

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Reply with quote  #23 

I think its aweful when people just blame and blame when one does there very best. I think its hard enough just to try and do the right thing and do what you know in your heart is the right thing. Glad things worked out OK with MCOA Candi

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Monica

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Reply with quote  #24 
Thanks for sharing your experience and perspective Steve.  Its appreciated.
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Monica
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giselle

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Reply with quote  #25 
bump

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Giselle
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