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Monica

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I would like to know how many state in their contracts that the puppy they are placing MUST be spayed/nuetered by a certain age. I would assume this only applies to pups that are pet quality and sent home on a limitied registration.

If you do send a pup home on a limited reg. and don't require spay or neutering by a certain age (i.e., its up to the owenr) how do you know that the pup owner is not going to backyard breed at sometime?

If you do send a pup home on limited reg. plus spay/neuter requirements - how do you get proof that the spay/neuter has happened? Can you enforce the contract if you don't have proof by a certain date.

What are your feelings on this?

I personally feel that if I sent a pup home on a limited reg. I would require a spay/neuter by a certain age and proof of that. Is that to harsh? And what if I required that by one year of age and at two that dog or female turns out to be an awesome prospect that you could not see at 1 year old?


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Monica
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Reply with quote  #2 

I require spay and nueter by 18 months of age with proof sent to me. I do follow up with emails or phone calls. I will probalby co-own all show prospects until their CH is finished and then sign off - atleast with newbies and the female puppies - that is what most breeders I know do in other breeds.

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medievalmastiff

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Reply with quote  #3 

All my companion pups are sold on a spay/neuter contract....bitches must be spayed at 6 months, boys neutered by 18 months.  I do follow up on all.   They are all sold on limited registration, even the ones that are sold as show prospects.  I ask that I see the pup at 6 months and both owner and I discuss if the pup is ready for the show ring or if they should wait a bit longer.  I also take into consideration how serious the owners have been about getting the puppy ready to show,(classes, socialization etc)  Once we agree the pup is ready I change the registration over to full and the pup can be shown.


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Monica

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Reply with quote  #4 

Hello Everyone:  New question here.

 

When writing a contract for co-ownership of a bitch that is presumed breeding quality how do you word the clause for the split of proceeds from a litter that the bitch might have one day with the person who loves and houses the bitch and whelps the litter?  I have heard that the person who houses the bitch and whelps the litter typically keeps more of a percentage of the proceeds than the co-owner who is not housing the bitch.

 

Also, what if there is a loss due to complications - would the loss and costs just be split 50/50?

 

Can the breeders or anyone that has a co-ownership with a bitch of breeding potential share how their contract is broken down in this area.

 

Thanks


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Monica
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Reply with quote  #5 

Monica - we leased a bitch before and we split all breeding expenses 50/50 and then the litter was split 60/40 - I doubt if I would ever do it that way again. I would probably do it for a puppy or two back depending on the size of the litter

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Monica

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Reply with quote  #6 

Thanks Heather, I can see your point on a leased bitch, but what about if she was yours and living with you and you didn't have to give her back, had the ability to pick or share in a pick with the same breeder and still needed to figure out how to split?

 

How come you would not do it that way again?  Would you do it that way if you housed the bitch permanentely?

 

I know I'm nosey... any help is great.

 

Thanks.


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Monica
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Michelle

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Reply with quote  #7 

Well, I am not a breeder, but I coown Vegas with Sarah. Though I doubt she will ever be breed at this point (she is a little small) our agreement was. She lives with me, I pay normal expenses, we both love her and if she is ever breed then I would get a puppy out of it ... Sarah would do all the welping and work ... something like that anyway. I didn't really car one way or the other, I just wanted Vegas!!!

This is Vegas the day I got her with Sarah and with me ...







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Michelle ~ Vegas and Cowboy
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Reply with quote  #8 

The bitch we leased from a friend - we just decided we would rather do it for a puppy or two back - seems more fair to us.

As far as co-owning - all of my co-ownerships are different - I one with no money down and 3 puppies back, 1 with no money and 2 puppies back and 2 with reduced price and 1 puppy back, and one where we split the litter (this is my daughter's border terrier no where near as much work as the mastiffs) some other's (shorthairs) are a puppy or two back with depending on size of litter no money down but permeant co-ownership- it would be a long email to explain on these LOL - all my contracts state only if the bitch is breedable if not then no monies are due. I of my girls I co-own had to spayed due to pyo -I would rather her be a spayed loved pet and she is spoiled rotten in her home If you want more details then this you will have to email me LOL

If I am personally going to co-own a bitch I bred I would do it for a discounted price and 1 puppy back if the co-owner whelped the litter; if I whelped the litter then the co-owner could have 1 -2 puppies depending on size of litter and the rest of the litter would be mine.

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Michelle

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Reply with quote  #9 

Heather, Your last statement is my basic agreement with Sarah.


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Monica

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Reply with quote  #10 

Thanks for sharing all that great info Heather! and everyone else - great stuff there.


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Monica
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #11 
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goldleaf

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #13 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #14 
Seems like a good time.  Duane - does your contract state that all non-show quality pups must be neutered by a certain age?  Or does it state that if something is wrong heathwise in order to receive a refund the dog must be spayed?

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Monica
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Comstock

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Reply with quote  #15 
Hi Monica,

We placed most of the pups from our last litter on Limited Registration and Spay/Neuter Contracts with the option of revisiting the puppy at 6-7 months to re-evaluate for showing.  The bitches were to be spayed after first season and dogs neutered after 12 months.  I would change that to 18 months after watching head development.

We offered $300 rebates at time of altering.  This was a financial incentive to get it done and it also offset the cost of prelims for those spayed prior to two years.

Your best option for seeing that contracts are fulfilled is to remain in contact with your puppy buyers.  Sometimes that requires tongue biting, but just as often, you find some really nice friends.

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madchemist

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Reply with quote  #16 

How much difference in initial price is there between "pet quality" and "show potential" when the "pet quality" is on a mandatory spay/nueter contract?


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Monica

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Reply with quote  #17 
Caroline - that is perfect!!  IMPO - LOL!!  It is time for me to start thinking about actually putting a contract together and having time to tweak it before the Dreamer puppies days (hopefully) - but not too soon for heaven's sake ;-) come! 

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Monica
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Comstock

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Reply with quote  #18 
Hello,

I sold my puppies for the same price regardless if they were going to a show or pet home.  I feel that it isn't so much a difference between pet and show and it is between a quality breeding and a convenient breeding. 

I think that most puppy buyers want a Mastiff that has a wonderful temperament, looks like a Mastiff and that has a chance of living a long, healthy life.  That means that I as a breeder must choose my breeding stock carefully, spare no expense in health testing and be brutally honest about what I have.  I don't think any of my pet homes have been disappointed.  Some of them ended up with Champions though not their intent at the time of purchase.  All are pleasant and valued members of the family.  To me, that is the most important thing.



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Caroline Tobin
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Reply with quote  #19 
Clinton,

I might be completely out in left field here but . . . (what's new lol)

I kind of think that maybe a show quality dog should go for less, with the expressed condition that it be shown a certain number of times, and re-evaluated for quality prior to any consideration of breeding.

Showing costs money, and if the new owner is footing those bills they are doing lot's of PR for the breeder.

Nothing set in stone for me, just thinking out loud, anyone have any feedback on this?

Barrie
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Sunstone Mastiffs
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #20 
Hi friend :-)  I have to disagree on this one about the lower price for show quality.  Showing is expensive to say the least and I would want to know that someone had the financial stability to show - therefore totally willingness without batting an eye to pay a higher price for show or for that matter one price for either quality but not lower for show unless of course it was a special circumstance where the breeder asked someone to take the show dog because they knew it would be shown, knew they'd be in touch, etc., etc.   I think this scenario could be a part of a contract that could go icky.... sorry....hugs :-)

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Monica
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owenspride

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Reply with quote  #21 
I like the idea of putting an Obedience requirement in there, and fully intend to do so.
When and if.


And I am on the "one price" theme as well.

If anyone is taking a poll.

that's my current thinking, anyway. Which may vary from time to time, as time goes by.
When and IF!

 LOL


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Reply with quote  #22 

Well, like I said, I was thinking out loud (seems to work much better for me that a way lol).

I might lean towards the same price for both, but I really don't think more for the show quality just because it's show quality. To me this is not the same as a breeding/full registration contract.

It's not about the financial stability for me. It is about the fact that these new owners are out there doing PR work for me, that ordinarily a pet owner isn't doing.

Now there are always going to be special circumstances, and those scenarios are endless lol!

So now, what about the scenario where you have a show contract, and clearly have a gorgeous show dog, but that dog HATES dog shows?

There are lot's of parts that can go (as you so eloquently put it ) icky lol!

From my own contracts for the Mastiffs that I have, I have lot's to pick and choose from, both good and bad in my eyes.

Funny, I wrote the contract that I have for Sunny, because I felt that the breeder was not protecting himself  sometimes I wonder about me!

I am going to pull out all of my old Potbellied Pig contracts and see what I was thinking 15-16 years ago on this subject lol!

Hugs back to you girlfriend.

Barrie
Sunstone Designs
http://www.sunstonedesigns.net
Sunstone Mastiffs
www coming soon!



 
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #23 
I pulled this up and read back thru it b/c I have some new questions.

How do you "puppy buyers" and "breeders" feel about different prices in mastiffs pups from a litter.

As a buyer how do you feel knowing that you are paying less and that's because the pup doesn't seem to possess the same (or as good) of qualities as the higher priced pup? Does that matter to someone looking for a companion?

As a breeder, if you feel you have say 3-4 show/breed quality pups but no homes that want to show for those pups do you wait, sell them still at a higher price or do you sell them at a pet price.  Do you feel comfortable selling a companion pup at a higher price because of its attributes and quality?

What do you think about pricing all the pups the same, sending them all home on limited reg with a clause in your contract that says they will be re-evaluated at 6 months if a family wants to show. (of course there are special circumstances, i.e., the for sure show home, another breed, friend, etc., where you might do the full reg from the beginning).

Curious what you all think and also how the buyers feel when they see two prices.

Now that I have had my first experience with a set of puppy buyers all of whom, except for one were not showing, but we had half a litter of show quality, some folks chose to pay for the show quality to have a "better" pup... How do buyers feel about this?

Trying to decide how I want to word a contract, set prices, choose homes (1st come, first serve - puppy matching with families..., etc.,) when that time comes.

Thanks


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Monica
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #24 
Hi Monica,
Sorry I missed this post. Since you just raised a litter saw how we dealt with all the paperwork, I would suggest you make a list and write down the things that you would want to see changed that might make things run more smoothly.

As you know, we charge two different prices and it's always worked well for us, so I'll probably continue that. Most buyers are aware that breeders usually charge different prices for show vs. pet and are fine with that. We can talk more about it when your big day arrives - LOL!!

I know at one time we had a thread and a lot of people talked about one price vs. different prices.  This was before the board held a lot of threads, so I think it's dropped off.  It was a great conversation, so it would be interesting to hear peoples thoughts on this again.  It's been awhile and my memory isn't what it used to be - LOL!


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Reply with quote  #25 
Well, no one really piped up did they LOL!!  I guess I'll figure it out.  I don't know why I seem to be struggling with the "higher quality pup" being a "higher price."  I guess what I'm really struggling with a bit is that even tho it is a reality that some pups in a litter possess better physical attributes than other, I hate giving them the "better" label. So, then I guess folks give them the "show" label but then the buyers come and they don't show... but they are happy to pay the price for a better picking slot and a "nicer looking" pup.  Sighhh.  They are all going to go home and be loved and snuggled and pets (shown or not) so I'm just in a pickle about the labeling which goes along with different price brackets.  I'll figure it out... I said that already huh LOL!
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