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Monica

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Reply with quote  #1 

I was going to put this under "BLOAT" but thought I would start new. Anytime the subject comes up in a thread, I am tempted... but never get further than that. Something is holding me back and I think its fear of not doing it right....

Kristen,

Are you going to start the new pups on raw? Are you doing your own raw recipe or following a certain program like the BARF program as you transition?

I remember Geri posting her entire recipe for raw feeding which I think I even printed out at some point. It scared me so I'm not sure I have it... Just that I'd mess something up and have a hobling dog...

I thought if given him some cheese, hamburger and yogurt can cause pano - man what if I give him too much of all that meat in the raw diet.

Wondering how its going - what you are incorporating.


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Monica,

 

Our recent litter was weaned on raw with great results. The dam was switched to raw when we brought her home at 8 weeks and we've never looked back. We do more of a "prey-model" diet which consists primarily of meat, bones, and organs. Veggies do not play an important role. It does not have to be nearly as complicated or scary as some make it out to be. I have helped several people switch their dogs to raw and all are happy and healthy.

 

Proud rawfed mommy with rawfed puppies at 8 weeks...  

 

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Monica

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Thanks Tracy,

 

I was giving Monty kibble and then started mixing in a bit of yogurt - string cheese snacks and then giving him a cup of raw hamburger as a treat.  Suffice it to say, I was reading some stuff on a board and came up with my own little recipe.  BAD!!  Well, either coincidence or probably not... Monty got very high in the rear a bit roachy and went thru a month of being stiff thru the back.  On advice from Jann I immediately cut out (she didn't know I was doing this...) all the extras and put him on a very low protein kibble.  Kristen helped me with this as well.  It took about 1.5 months before he'd come out of a sleeping or lying down mode not stiff. 

 

Now I've got him on Eagle adult large breed and he seems to be doing fine.  I guess the part that scares me is it was easy to read the label on the dog food bags and find the lowest protein when I needed to slow down his growth.  With raw feeding I am afraid I will not be able to adjust should I need to because I can't "read a lable" on raw meat - or can I?

 

Can you shine some light.  Also, if there is a website or reading material along these lines - can you direct me there?

 

Thanks.


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Yep, looks great to me!!

 

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Michelle

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I feed raw and it truly isn't as scary as some people make it out to be.  I also feed more of a prey model, not that I intended to, it was pretty much Vegas' choice.  She looks great, has great teeth, great stool ... barely any shedding.  And frankly, it is cheaper than any premium quality kibble.  She eats ... chicken neck, turkey neck, venison, fresh fish, beef kidney and/or heart, and  occasionally tripe.  They need a semi-balanced diet, but it doesn't need to be balanced EVERY day.  For example she may get chicken for a day, then the next day I throw in the heart or kidney, then chicken again, then I throw in the venison.  I would say that her staple food is 80 percent chicken.  I also give her glucosamine, vitamin C, and salmon oil.  That is about it.


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CapeWind

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<< I was giving Monty kibble and then started mixing in a bit of yogurt - string cheese snacks and then giving him a cup of raw hamburger as a treat. Suffice it to say, I was reading some stuff on a board and came up with my own little recipe. BAD!! Well, either coincidence or probably not... Monty got very high in the rear a bit roachy and went thru a month of being stiff thru the back. >>

Hi Monica, I missed thi thread back when it was new, but wanted to comment on the above anyways. Some pups will go butt high regardless of diet, BUT reading what you added to the kibble, it was likely to be the cheese, yogurt and hamburger that you were adding. If you fed these items regularly with kibble, you added, protein, protein, and more protein! You can add a dollop of yogurt to kibble safely to add the probotics. A lot of people use string cheese for training, but this would be no more then a treat. The hamburger on the other hand, with both of the other items, and lets say HIGH PROTEIN DIET.

 

Visualize a whole dressed chicken, with the little giblet bag. LOW protein meal, proper meat to bone ratios, and good organ quanity. One of our puppy buyers feeds nothing but whole chickens with organs, and adds 2 TBSP of salmon oil twice per week. On rare occassion he may feed part of a meat (red) that he bought for himself, but otherwise, Rufus is living on whole chickens. If you remember a thread I did elsewhere about a buyer who had never even interacted with a dog before, this is that home. If he can manage it, I think anyone can:-)

 

 


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Hey Monica,

 

I somehow missed this thread too until now.  To answer your question, I am raising these 2 pups on a combination of kibble (Nutro Natural Choice Lamb and Rice) and raw.  They get 2 kibble meals a day, and one raw (usually either chicken thighs, chicken backs, or wings or combination and a little organ meat once a week).  They're doing very well.  Duke (other littermate) is on totally raw, natural diet. 

 

I have fed totally raw in the past, and did well with it.  I do agree with you that you can screw up a puppy if you don't really know what you're doing.  With Dr. Billinghurst's raw diet, you must be diligent about the vegie meals in growing giant breed puppies, and feed them almost daily.  With a totally carnivorous diet, it's a bit different.  I have known of some pups to grow up w/ OCD and pano problems on raw too (OCD is believed to be nutritional in cause and pano is a growth issue that relates to growing fast). 

 

A lot of folks advise against mixing raw w/ kibble, however, I know of a very long time Mastiff breeder that has combined the two w/ their growing puppies, and also their adults (my adults get raw meaty bones at 4 times a week) w/ much success.  So far so good w/ the pups.

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CapeWind

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Reply with quote  #10 

<< A lot of folks advise against mixing raw w/ kibble, >>

 

Hi Kristen,

 

I'm one who advices against it. I know which breeder you are speaking of, and agree that it is working for them, and has for a LONG time. The way you are feeding DOES make me nervous, BUT, I know you have a solid mentor in this method, so am simply watching and learning more. At this time, I can't say that I would promote/recomend this method.

 

My biggest concern with mixing the two. A lot of people will do exactly what Monica did. Without enough knowledge, just "add" stuff to the kibble. What ends up happening is they are cranking up the protein levels, and not feeding any form of a balanced diet. Poor diet and high protein, we all know can result in serious issues. Human nature is to "improvise" and in some cases, that is fine, but others can be disasterous. So from that prospective, I will promote a RAW diet, OR a KIBBLE diet, but NOT the general mixing of the two.

 

The other concern .. The digestive system of a kibble fed dog is very alkaline. When raw fed, that same digestive system is highly acidic. I believe the more acidic environment is important for killing off the iffy bacterias in raw meats. In the truly healthy dog, I feel that most dogs could handle the combination, but in a dog that is COMPROMISED, I feel that it is not worth the risk, and would rather see them on a kibble diet, then a combined diet.

 

The problem then becomes WHAT classifies a dog as compromised??? Some things would be clear, but others not. For example, if a dog has been hit with ALL the puppy shots, plus annual shots, Frontline, Heartguard, etc etc etc, that some vets still push, I would put that dog into the compromised catagory.

 

I can't stress enough to be careful when promoting the mixing of the two. What is common sense for some, is not for others who are new to a concept. Mixing the two MAY be okay, BUT both diets MUST be in the ballpark.

 

Here's an odd anology for you. Before I had children, I worked as a Certified Nursing Assistant (private duty for the terminally ill). When I took the state certification program, the instructor asked us to write down the instructions to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Sounds pretty simple right? Take two pieces of bread, put some peanut butter on one slice, some jelly on the other, and put the two together, right? WRONG! To say this is ASSUMING knowledge another person may not have. Before you can put anything on the bread, it needs to be out of the package. Before you can do anything with the peanut butter or jelly, one must open the jar .. Need some type of utensil to spread the items as well. This is extreme, but it made me think.

 

When it comes to feeding ANY diet, I think in this breed especially, that it is imperative that the person has a GOOD understanding of what it is they are about to do BEFORE they do it. Regardless of if it be kibble, raw, or a combination. We all know what can be said for hindsight, so thought it was important to comment on this topic. Sorry to be so long winded!


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gryarvold

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Reply with quote  #11 

What is a good raw recipe when weaning puppies? 


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Reply with quote  #12 
Gerri I appreciated reading your posts. I am feeding both and have made sure the the protein level and fat levels are low in the dry.The dry is a premium NZ product..as natural as I could find on the market here.
I do like to give the bones because they are more than just nutrition and cleaning teeth..my understanding is that they also clear out the stomach mucous, which makes the stomach less in habitable for parasites..worms etc.There is alot to be said for feeding a totally raw diet but I don't know enough about it in relation to these big breeds like mastiffs. I am in awe of people like yourself and Kumormai etc who are committed to raw. None of the breeders here in NZ feed raw and they kinda look down on ya if you don't feed a premium...I know!!Apparently the vets and scientists know best!!! I think you would have to know an aweful lot about it to counteract all of the hype about the benefits of a premium.
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #13 
I wondered where you too were when this thread started...

Monty is now on Innova, which I really like and he loves and is thriving on.  I still wet it down.  The pups are are Nutro natural large breed puppy with a small amount of large breed puppy canned mixed in.

Treats are doggy treats...

Everyone is growing evenly at this point.  Monty was already getting high and humpy at this age.  Dreamer is just a tad rear high but its her legs, not  a humpy stiff back. 

Anyway, one day I'd like to try the raw but I'm not gonna mix.  If I do it, I'll do it all the way and research it first. 

This is a good thread tho and I appreciate you gals answering.


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CapeWind

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Hi gryarvold ... I don't know if there is a perfect recipe, but our babies eat nearly the same items as our adults during the weaning process, just ground, and in goats milk. First it is mostly the milk. As they get better at eating, we increase the ground item/reduce the milk. I start one protein, and after several meals, try another. By the time the pups are ready to leave, they are used to a large variety of items. I prefer to feed a ground diet til 12+ weeks. Some breeders don't give any ground, and will give whole items from the beginning. Those pups generally suck at the meat, and as they get older start knawing, and actually consuming the item. For me, whole bones with a 4 week old, or even an 8-10 week old makes me nervous. For some, the methods used may vary by what they have available, or by their goals for the pups to be eating later. Whether it be a weanling pup, or an older dog being switched to raw, I think the biggest mistake some make is in introducing too many new items too fast. I'm not sure if I answered your question well enough, or if you have more questions. Feel free to ask for more info if needed.


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Reply with quote  #15 

Geri & Monica,

I completely agree with everything you said.  I would not encourage someone else to feed the combo I am w/o experience feeding raw and w/o reading a bunch of the raw feeding books first.  I definately also agree that you can mess up a growing Mastiff puppy on raw if you don't feed correct bone to meat ratios, and if you're feeding Billinghurst's diet, the vegie meals are crucial in puppy development.

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gryarvold

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Reply with quote  #16 
Thanx Geri  for the help and info.  I was thinking about giving them ground beef mixed with goats milk, should I put an egg in there or not?

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Monica

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Reply with quote  #17 
One thing I surely learned with Monty is that if and when I go raw one day I will need to do my own research, like Kristen and Geri have, in order to really understand what I am feeding, the combinations I need, etc.  I want to have a really good grip and understanding of it before I ask anymore questions so that when I ask questions I understand the answers.... This is what happened to me with Monty.  I saw some information, asked a few questions, someone said, "oh yogurt and cheese, great," and a little ground beef sure...." next thing I knew he had a very stiff back.  It could have been just the way he grew but .....I knew nothing - and still don't - about what you need to mix with what to make sure they have a healthy balance of nutrition. 

I even tried the vegie mixture over Monty's kibble at one point - he didn't care for that much... but that was in his "I dont' like anything you put in front of me" stage. 

Just my experience.


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CapeWind

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Reply with quote  #18 

I do like to give the bones because they are more than just nutrition and cleaning teeth..

*** Hi Karen, can you clarify what type of bones you add?

 

my understanding is that they also clear out the stomach mucous, which makes the stomach less in habitable for parasites..

*** This info is correct, but I have to wonder how effective it really is if kibble is still part of the diet. For lack of better wordings, kibble forms a "sludge like" lining (the mucus is a protective layer, to protect the intestines) on the insides of the intestines, much like that of a kitchen drain. Parasites (such as roundworms) are able to embed into this mucus, and are semi protected. This is WHY many vets believe that all dogs carry atleast a minor load at all times, unless you use a multi approach worming product (such as Panacur granuales, that are used for three consectutive days). The standard one shot treatments can't get them all. I'll guess that it MAY be possible for the raw to keep the "build up" from the kibble down, but I would doubt that it would keep it clear. This is total speculation on my part.

 

There is alot to be said for feeding a totally raw diet but I don't know enough about it in relation to these big breeds like mastiffs. I am in awe of people like yourself and Kumormai etc who are committed to raw.

*** A lot of people get overwhelmed with the amount of info out there, and the how to get it right. I believe most people know more about raw then they realize. You already know you want a low protein diet. Do you know what meat items PEOPLE eat that are low in protein? Which is healthier for PEOPLE? A nice lean chicken breast, or a gorgeous steak? I would prefer to eat the steak, or even a marinaded duck breast (my favorites), but I also know the chicken breast is better for me. Like any other subject we are interested in, one takes what they already know, and add to it.

 

None of the breeders here in NZ feed raw and they kinda look down on ya if you don't feed a premium...

*** I believe that is true for most of the world. In has only been the last few years that people here have really been open about raw. Even now, there are a lot of raw feeders who don't admit to how they feed, as they worry what others will think.

 

I know!!Apparently the vets and scientists know best!!! I think you would have to know an aweful lot about it to counteract all of the hype about the benefits of a premium.

*** I have a personal distaste for "posted studies" on ANY topic. The company who stands to make a profit is only going to make the studies that support their PROFIT MARGINS public. My position is I am going to do what I feel is right for my dogs. My regular vet, I have only been with a few years now. The vet I was seeing (same office) relocated. When we first met, he asked what I fed, and I told him, and I was honestly prepared for a fight. He surprised me. His response was he only received so many HOURS of nutritional training in school, and while he could not promote a raw diet, it was obviously working for my dogs, and to continue what was working. Never has he been disrespectful of my choice, and on occassion even asks a question or two. He'll also joke about it as well. The last xrays I did, he pointed out "there's some of your raw diet" LOL. (We were looking at puppy skulls and ribcages. The last meal she had included chicken rib cages.) Anyways, I think most of us have been around the block a time or two, and know to form our own opinions, based on ALL available info, not just what certain agencies want us to see.


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CapeWind

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Reply with quote  #19 

Hey Monica,

 

I don't know how we missed it, and there's a couple of others who normally pop onto the raw threads too that haven't yet. Hopefully they will, and chime in, as you already know Kristen and I each have a different approach, and the other two I am thinking of do things differently too. One of the great things about a raw diet is we have total control and flexibility. The basics remain the same, but there are some strong variences. Just the four of us alone must total 30+ dogs (spanning generations), NOT counting our puppy homes who kept with the same diets, that are all thriving.


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CapeWind

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Reply with quote  #20 

and if you're feeding Billinghurst's diet, the vegie meals are crucial in puppy development

*** Hi Kristen, I wanted to ask WHICH belief you follow in regards to the veggies in Billinghurst's diet. I know several who have done his diet have had constipation issues without the veggie meals, so that right there tells me too much bone (plus the color/dryness of the stools). Do you share this view, or is it something else?


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CapeWind

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Reply with quote  #21 

Hi Lori,

 

The egg is up to you. When I add goats milk to their early food, I should have clarified that to mean I use our homemade puppy formula.

 

I adjust our formula a bit from litter to litter. The most recent pups, each batch is one half gallon of pasturized organic goats milk (I can't get fresh), less the amount of milk, to add four egg yolks and ??? about one cup of organic yogurt to the half gallon container.

 

Personally, I would NOT use ground beef (as in hamburger). #1 is beef is a high protein item. #2 you need BOTH meat and bone.

 

My first choice is ground chicken. Note that to mean a whole dressed chicken (or the parts to make one), all run through the grinder. This is what I'll use as the first protein most of the time. After several meals, I'll EITHER add 25-50% ground turkey necks to the chicken, or just do the ground turkey necks (with the milk). I don't do plain ground turkey necks long, as I don't feel they have enough meat on them. Same methods with introducing ground lamb breast (again, with the bone included). While lamb is fairly lean, and easy to digest, this is a bit high in meat/fat then bone. So over the course of time, the too little turkey meat, and the too little lamb bone, balances out. After we have done 2-3 proteins, we'll introduce a bit (10%) organs. Same method. First a single item (turkey hearts, beef hearts, lamb hearts or veal hearts as my first choices). Once they have tried an item, and the entire litter is fine with it, we then interchange items from meal to meal. I have access to a good deal of items, so just rotate through whatever I have on hand. My goal is to get them used to a BROAD variety of food items, and onto the same diet our adults eat ASAP, with the only difference being the pups get theirs in the ground form for awhile.


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CapeWind

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Reply with quote  #22 

in order to really understand what I am feeding, the combinations I need, etc. 

*** The first thing that you need to decide for yourself is "Is a dog a carnivore or omnivore?". Watching the habits of the wild wolf, I believe dogs are a carnivore, and feed according to that belief. In times of famine, a wolf will eat nearly anything, but wouldn't we all if the choice was live or die? While I believe dogs are a carnivore, and do not need vegetable matter, I also do not believe that vegetable matter will hurt either. A waste of time, money and effort maybe, but harmful? I think not.

 

I want to have a really good grip and understanding of it before I ask anymore questions so that when I ask questions I understand the answers....

*** NEVER worry about asking the "dumb questions". Besides, they may stimulate other questions. If you don't understand the answer, there are enough of us, that someone can try to answer it again, and even again, if needed. 

 

next thing I knew he had a very stiff back.  It could have been just the way he grew but .....

*** In some lines, it is normal for a pup to go through some funky growth stages, BUT, it is also is a CLASSIC symptom of a diet (whether raw or kibble) being too high in protein.

 

I knew nothing - and still don't - about what you need to mix with what to make sure they have a healthy balance of nutrition. 

*** Again, I'll refer to the wolf, but one more thing. When you prepare meals for your human family, are you studying that pretty food pyramid that says WE need x servings of x per day of this, this and this? It is normal for a novice to worry about this, but once you've done it for a bit, it gets easier, and you learn to relax and remember that balance comes over time. Our 15 year old is in charge of feeding our dogs (not the babies). I buy a set amount of certain items, and he just feeds whatever. 

I even tried the vegie mixture over Monty's kibble at one point - he didn't care for that much... but that was in his "I dont' like anything you put in front of me" stage. 

*** Some dogs can be picky period. Some dogs hate certain brands of kibble too. I guess they refuse to read the lables. It doesn't matter how great any item is if we can't convince them to eat it. With having multi dogs, we have some that definately like some items better then others. Plain and simple, eat what is put in the dish, or someone else will. They learn pretty fast to eat their meal LOL. We do also make an effort to try to feed certain dogs more of their favorites. For Sassy, it means extra lamb necks here and there (too many and she looks more like a blowfish then a Mastiff) .. Cierra is on a chicken back kick right now (very fatty, as is her waistline becoming) .. Clifford loves quail .. Nauti will try to steal every duck carcus she can grab. In English what it all means is when I have small quanities of something left over, they are given to the dogs who love that item. It works out that every few days or so, someone is getting a special treat meal. My point here is while we follow a basic plan, it isn't rigid, and it is varied without concern.


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Quote:
Hi Kristen, I wanted to ask WHICH belief you follow in regards to the veggies in Billinghurst's diet. I know several who have done his diet have had constipation issues without the veggie meals, so that right there tells me too much bone (plus the color/dryness of the stools). Do you share this view, or is it something else?

 

Hey Geri, this is a good question, and one I've thought a lot about.  You are very right that if you feed Billinghurst's diet and slack on the vegie meals, you will deal w/ constipation issues.  I think his books are easy reading and easy to understand, and like a lot of his concepts.  I also think that his diet recommendations have very high bone to meat ratios...and perhaps too high on the bone in growing puppies, which is why I stress the importance of the vegie meals in growing pups.  He suggests vegie meals 4x a week in growing pups, but if I were feeding his diet, I would do them daily.  Not so much b/c of the constipation issue but b/c of the high bone ratio...I've seen some puppies really messed up from too much bone (OCD). 

 

I used to think that dogs were omnivores, but I tend to lean more toward the carnivorous belief at this point.  It's just that Billinghurst's diet is popular (known as the B.A.R.F. diet), and I think most feed this.  Like you, I think vegies won't hurt, but if you are feeding less bone, you don't need the vegies.  I give my guys vegies and fruit as treats though.    Frozen bananas and carrots are hit w/ the puppies.

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CapeWind

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Reply with quote  #24 

Simply adding more meat solves the problem. My thoughts on HIS veggie use is as fiber to help all that bone pass. From the raw lists, I'd agree that many (less then half of raw feeders) add some vegetable matter to the diets, but more and more have given up the Billinghurst methods. I lump him into the competative KIBBLE markets. It just seems that he is more about sales and marketing, then promoting a species appropriate diet. The term BARF has been around forever, but since Billinghurst, most of the prey model feeders refuse to use that word.

 

Another angle to consider .. Many of us have been taught, from the kibble feeding days, that if you need a "hungry" dog to lose weight, to simply add green beans to the diet. It has nearly no calories, and takes up SPACE. I have a hard time "forgetting" this.

 

I find it ironic, that if you go back before raw was becoming common knowledge, most of the kibbles contained NO vegetable matter, with the exception of corn. Kibbles have been becoming "more natural" to COMPETE with the lost market of raw feeders. Always interesting the trends one sees if you watch long enough LOL.


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Bump for Mindee

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