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steveoifer

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Posted Reply with quote  #1 

Once again, an important issue!

What goes into making a proper top-line?

Croup angle?

Shoulder height & angle?

Rear legs?

Position of the front legs for the photo shoot?

Spinal irregularities?

Weight?

Length?

Straight stifles?

What say you?
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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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NancyE

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Posted Reply with quote  #2 

I think muscle development plays an important part as well.
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Nancy
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steveoifer

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Posted Reply with quote  #3 

Care to elaborate?
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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Posted Reply with quote  #4 

Bump ... there are so many breeders on this board that have beautiful dogs - it would be great if some would contribute to this thread with their opinions. 


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Monica
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Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
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NancyE

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Posted Reply with quote  #5 

Thank you for the bump, Monica. I meant to elaborate and just got lagging behind again

I relish my computer time but some days I have more of it then other days...

 

In Patricia Craige's book Born To Win Breed To Succeed, she talks about the spine being the dog's support system. The spine actually is curved to absorb stress, and in a well-conditioned animal the muscles fill in the crevices of the skeleton to give a smooth outward appearance to the back.

This makes a lot sense to me.
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Nancy
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Posted Reply with quote  #6 

This is my 6 month old boy at the nationals...feel free to use him as an example...whew, I think I can handle it!!
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giselle

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Posted Reply with quote  #7 
Here's my girl Cid about a little over 2. She has a bit of a dip behind her shoulders -- soft topline...although with the right handler (not me), her topline looks really good. I will have to admit I don't know enough about structure to know why it is soft but I've had several people tell me a little hillwork would help it a lot. She's not showing anymore so I've never been able to test that theory.









I also have a digital video of her --how it looks with a handler... http://media.putfile.com/TournamentofMastiffs . Sorry the chairs are in the way for a lot of it. I'd be interested in hearing what people think structurally is causing it and if they do feel it can be helped with conditioning.

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Giselle
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Monica

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Posted Reply with quote  #8 

Okay, here's Monty he was roachy/and or rear high at 4 months and is just coming out (7.5 months) of it.  I am forever practicing getting him stacked correctly - he's too far back but I was attempting to even out his back... We are getting there.  The baby pic was at about 3.5 months.  Go ahead and use him to make points, evals... Fine by me.  He is who he is and we love him! 

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Monica
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PrayerboxMastiff

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Posted Reply with quote  #9 

I just love to see everyones babies Candi
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bridgette

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Posted Reply with quote  #10 

Bumping up for Jann and so Melze can see Cider.


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Bridgette
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Posted Reply with quote  #11 

THERE THERE THERE oh THERE IS THAT PRETTY GIRL!!!!!  I'm not gonna lie I'm just not a HUGE brindle fan... but Cider makes me rethink my position!!!!
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kittykat

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Posted Reply with quote  #12 

I'm going to put in some pics of Harry since he's my only show dog. I don't handle him and don't really even know how. Mindy and TJ said he does well in the ring though.

The first one he was just under 7 months, the second one he was 4 months and the last two he was just under 4 months. He just recently turned 8 months. I need an updated pic of his topline!

 

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Kat
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Monica

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Posted Reply with quote  #13 

Kittykat - he has a nice topline - developed much more evenly than Monty's.  Monty is still working on straightening out at 9 mos.  How old is your boy?
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Monica
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kittykat

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Posted Reply with quote  #14 

Harry was born on Jan. 27th, so he's just over 8 months now. This photo was at a funmatch on August 26th. He is being handled by his handler's daughter. She is just the cutest thing and a much better dog trainer than I am!

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Kat
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Posted Reply with quote  #15 

Kat,

Harry is so gorgeous!!!!! Bring on the pics!
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goldleaf

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Posted Reply with quote  #16 
Bumping to save topic
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steveoifer

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Posted Reply with quote  #17 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Posted Reply with quote  #18 

If my records are accurate, you can see an improvement in heads and toplines between 1923 (lower picture) and 1938 (upper picture)!

 

I did not like the earlier Hillcrest dogs at all!

 
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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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brandig

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Posted Reply with quote  #19 

do you think that a very straight topline is overdone and that a slightly soft topline is more natural to the dogs? i know for show the straighter the better but who made it that way and why?


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Hair? what hair? i dont see any hair!!
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steveoifer

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Posted Reply with quote  #20 

Actually an arch is the strongest structure for carrying loads ( see the mammoth skeleton )

 

Compared to the cheetah skeleton which is designed for flex and speed.....

 

 

The mastiff topline is designed for the standard!...LOL
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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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brandig

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Posted Reply with quote  #21 

exactly!
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Hair? what hair? i dont see any hair!!
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Cedarhollow

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Posted Reply with quote  #22 

When comparing the Mammoth to the Cheetah also look at the length of rib vs length of loin.  This is where much of the 'strength' of the back comes from.  The Cheetah has to have incredible flexibility where the Mammoth could NEVER move in the same manner. 


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Jamie Morris
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steveoifer

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Posted Reply with quote  #23 

One is predator and one is prey!
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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Posted Reply with quote  #24 

High rears can be caused by many factors. One factor which goes unnoticed is the spinal connection, which can give the illusion that the rear is too high.

 

In the bitch pictured below, we see the rear appearing higher than the front, but in reality, if this bitch was stacked naturally she would have approx. the same height at the withers as she does in the rear. The dip in the topline is what gives the impression that her rear is too high. 

 

Click image for larger version - Name: scan0026.jpg, Views: 0, Size: 143.98 KB
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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Posted Reply with quote  #25 

Click image for larger version - Name: scan0027.jpg, Views: 15, Size: 89.18 KBClick image for larger version - Name: scan0028.jpg, Views: 12, Size: 64.11 KB    

Axial skeleton..............

 

Note the two pictures.

 

I bent the second picture at the coupling, between where the thoracic vertebrae and the lumbar vertebrae meet.

In many mastiffs, this "weak" spot causes the back to sag giving the impression that the rear is higher. Often overweight factors can contribute to this issue as well as muscle laxity etc.
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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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