steveoifer
Registered:1156447700 Posts: 9,230
Posted 1156799791
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#1
Once again, an important issue!
What goes into making a proper top-line?
Croup angle?
Shoulder height & angle?
Rear legs?
Position of the front legs for the photo shoot?
Spinal irregularities?
Weight?
Length?
Straight stifles?
What say you?
__________________ For the betterment of the breed
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
NancyE
Registered:1156857994 Posts: 850
Posted 1156875579
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#2
I think muscle development plays an important part as well.
__________________ Nancy
http://www.kitanmastiffs.com
steveoifer
Registered:1156447700 Posts: 9,230
Posted 1156875824
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#3
Care to elaborate?
__________________ For the betterment of the breed
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
Monica
Registered:1156449798 Posts: 4,089
Posted 1156957635
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#4
Bump ... there are so many breeders on this board that have beautiful dogs - it would be great if some would contribute to this thread with their opinions.
__________________ Monica
www.harmonymastiffs.com
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
NancyE
Registered:1156857994 Posts: 850
Posted 1156978521
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#5
Thank you for the bump, Monica. I meant to elaborate and just got lagging behind again
I relish my computer time but some days I have more of it then other days...
In Patricia Craige's book Born To Win Breed To Succeed, she talks about the spine being the dog's support system. The spine actually is curved to absorb stress, and in a well-conditioned animal the muscles fill in the crevices of the skeleton to give a smooth outward appearance to the back.
This makes a lot sense to me.
__________________ Nancy
http://www.kitanmastiffs.com
Registered:Member deleted Posts: N/A
Posted 1156979930
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#6
This is my 6 month old boy at the nationals...feel free to use him as an example...whew, I think I can handle it!!
giselle
Registered:1156717714 Posts: 759
Monica
Registered:1156449798 Posts: 4,089
Posted 1156991358
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#8
Okay, here's Monty he was roachy/and or rear high at 4 months and is just coming out (7.5 months) of it. I am forever practicing getting him stacked correctly - he's too far back but I was attempting to even out his back... We are getting there. The baby pic was at about 3.5 months. Go ahead and use him to make points, evals... Fine by me. He is who he is and we love him!
__________________ Monica
www.harmonymastiffs.com
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
PrayerboxMastiff
Registered:1156723076 Posts: 378
Posted 1156996421
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#9
I just love to see everyones babies Candi
bridgette
Registered:1156727039 Posts: 138
Posted 1160613088
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#10
Bumping up for Jann and so Melze can see Cider.
__________________ Bridgette
Registered:Member deleted Posts: N/A
Posted 1160613155
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#11
THERE THERE THERE oh THERE IS THAT PRETTY GIRL!!!!! I'm not gonna lie I'm just not a HUGE brindle fan... but Cider makes me rethink my position!!!!
kittykat
Registered:1159680644 Posts: 1,145
Posted 1160623111
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#12
I'm going to put in some pics of Harry since he's my only show dog. I don't handle him and don't really even know how. Mindy and TJ said he does well in the ring though.
The first one he was just under 7 months, the second one he was 4 months and the last two he was just under 4 months. He just recently turned 8 months. I need an updated pic of his topline!
__________________ Kat
Monica
Registered:1156449798 Posts: 4,089
Posted 1160623361
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#13
Kittykat - he has a nice topline - developed much more evenly than Monty's. Monty is still working on straightening out at 9 mos. How old is your boy?
__________________ Monica
www.harmonymastiffs.com
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
kittykat
Registered:1159680644 Posts: 1,145
Posted 1160623996
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#14
Harry was born on Jan. 27th, so he's just over 8 months now. This photo was at a funmatch on August 26th. He is being handled by his handler's daughter. She is just the cutest thing and a much better dog trainer than I am!
__________________ Kat
Registered:Member deleted Posts: N/A
Posted 1160657009
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#15
Kat,
Harry is so gorgeous!!!!! Bring on the pics!
goldleaf
Registered:1145992143 Posts: 8,058
Posted 1165622578
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#16
Bumping to save topic
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steveoifer
Registered:1156447700 Posts: 9,230
Posted 1168108020
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#17
__________________ For the betterment of the breed
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
steveoifer
Registered:1156447700 Posts: 9,230
Posted 1168108283
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#18
If my records are accurate, you can see an improvement in heads and toplines between 1923 (lower picture) and 1938 (upper picture)!
I did not like the earlier Hillcrest dogs at all!
__________________ For the betterment of the breed
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
brandig
Registered:1156800814 Posts: 1,679
Posted 1168121954
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#19
do you think that a very straight topline is overdone and that a slightly soft topline is more natural to the dogs? i know for show the straighter the better but who made it that way and why?
__________________ Hair? what hair? i dont see any hair!!
steveoifer
Registered:1156447700 Posts: 9,230
Posted 1168122946
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#20
Actually an arch is the strongest structure for carrying loads ( see the mammoth skeleton )
Compared to the cheetah skeleton which is designed for flex and speed.....
The mastiff topline is designed for the standard!...LOL
__________________ For the betterment of the breed
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
brandig
Registered:1156800814 Posts: 1,679
Posted 1168174195
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#21
exactly!
__________________ Hair? what hair? i dont see any hair!!
Cedarhollow
Registered:1155090853 Posts: 1,294
Posted 1168193245
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#22
When comparing the Mammoth to the Cheetah also look at the length of rib vs length of loin. This is where much of the 'strength' of the back comes from. The Cheetah has to have incredible flexibility where the Mammoth could NEVER move in the same manner.
__________________ Jamie Morris
Cedarhollow Mastiffs
http://www.cedarhollowmastiffs.com
Until one has been loved by an animal,
a part of one's soul remains unawakened. ~ Anatole France
steveoifer
Registered:1156447700 Posts: 9,230
Posted 1168202653
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#23
One is predator and one is prey!
__________________ For the betterment of the breed
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
steveoifer
Registered:1156447700 Posts: 9,230
Posted 1170701468
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#24
High rears can be caused by many factors. One factor which goes unnoticed is the spinal connection, which can give the illusion that the rear is too high.
In the bitch pictured below, we see the rear appearing higher than the front, but in reality, if this bitch was stacked naturally she would have approx. the same height at the withers as she does in the rear. The dip in the topline is what gives the impression that her rear is too high.
__________________ For the betterment of the breed
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
steveoifer
Registered:1156447700 Posts: 9,230
Posted 1172193670
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#25
Axial skeleton..............
Note the two pictures.
I bent the second picture at the coupling, between where the thoracic vertebrae and the lumbar vertebrae meet.
In many mastiffs, this "weak" spot causes the back to sag giving the impression that the rear is higher. Often overweight factors can contribute to this issue as well as muscle laxity etc.
__________________ For the betterment of the breed
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman