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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #76 

Click image for larger version - Name: scan0001.jpg, Views: 53, Size: 388.05 KB   Click image for larger version - Name: scan0020.jpg, Views: 1752, Size: 413.99 KB   Click image for larger version - Name: scan0019.jpg, Views: 47, Size: 864.97 KB   Taurus's pedigree

 

From Threebees to Boswell to Taurus

 

Look at the head characteristics and see the generational carry-through.

 

In this posters view, Threebees was one of the main contributors of incorrect head/muzzle type in the last 30+ years!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #77 
Steve, I find the title of this thread completely miss leading. Please name me a time in Mastiff history when type was uniform. Thanks
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #78 

If my theory is valid, the Crusader of Sparry ( see that thead ) issue might be presenting itself in the Newf head characteristics through Threebees. As noted on the Crusader thread.

 

Crusader was a fluff and the Sparry kennels also produced Newfs. It would be a reasonable theory to further evaluate, given the fact that the *fluff gene and other *Newf characteristics did transmit into present day mastiffs and we do have a known connection, as far as head type is observed coming through Threebees. Whether Threebees was a carrier of the fluff gene has yet to be determined, but it certainly is more than possible, given the totality of the issue and the historical validity of his fluff antecedent.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #79 

Angie,

 

It doesn't read..."Type was uniform then, as compared to now!"

 

It is comparing type, then & now.

 

Has it changed? If so how?

 

If not, why not?

 

Variation has been there since inception, but type has changed since certain popular dogs came into the fray.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #80 

Angie,
Steve,

 

It doesn't read..."Type was uniform then, as compared to now!"
True, true...yet I still find it miss leading - not necessarily in an objective way but folks are so darn subjective . Especially when you give the Neo pics...Neos also "suffer" from a lack of uniform type and I am sure you can find Neos today (around the world) that look allot like the "then" picture that was posted.

 

It is comparing type, then & now.
How would you compare type, then & now?

 

Has it changed? If so how?
Yes and No....there have always been various types and they go around in never ending circles with the results being dependent on the mix. They come, then go, then reappear....it seems to be the nature of the breed like it or not just what I see without making a judgment here and now about my views on this particular reality.

 

If not, why not?
same as above

 

Variation has been there since inception, but type has changed since certain popular dogs came into the fray.
Yes, but not all the types have changed only certain ones, yet all have changed. In nature NOTHING stays the same - it's a law that cannot and should not (cloning for example) be changed unlike our human laws that are completely subjective.

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Reply with quote  #81 
Humans attempt to control canis familiaris but they are very well know shape shifters.
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Gina

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Reply with quote  #82 

Perhaps my opinion doesn't count, but through the years and with my own limited ownership I have to agree that there are 2 diff. types.

I see this at Buck's especially. Even viewing Crufts..heavy headed, over wrinkled over the withers, sloppy movement, poor rear and movement to achieve the huge massive standard that has no height minimum. I watched a huge brindle in 2004 (Crufts) from my ortho rehab bed and winced in pain at this poor boy's movement...he barely made it..one word comes to my mind with some English lines..sloppy...overdone, crippled, HUGE head on so-so body.

or worse no depth of chest, not let down at all, but freekin wide like a semi.

I am not an expert, I just have seen such disparity in the ring..like all of us. You would never know they are the same breed.

OR..what about balance? clean mover? Height around 32" complete w/correct length of leg and nice front? If the old MM look is what some are going for, I still don't see it...I see too much one way or the other.

What is wrong w/Olga or Tamara's wonderful blending to achieve a balanced, healthy Mastiff? I remember Bill St.Clair's ad about Gorn..he made it clear that was HIS type of Mastiff and that not everyone would like it or agree..I personally did not like Gorn's look..(but loved the dog for being a Mastiff and putting up with his humans)

So if you look at let's say last year's BISS Ivan, and a dog like Brutus, you can clearly see what I mean...I see two diff. "types" right there.

so are we back to no DR in pedigree or no MM in pedigree..

or both?

Used to be we could tell a Mastiff right off just by looking..like Storm, Iron Hills, Acorn Hills, GH..etc..bred true to THEIR pedigrees, but some DID outcross when needed..I remember Storm going to Jackson for a change..just like Pendragon (all Ironhills and Acornhills) going to Jed..

course what the hey do I know?

woof..G

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Reply with quote  #83 
... Threebees was one of the main contributors of incorrect head/muzzle type in the last 30+ years!...

Steve, of course there are different types in the Mastiff. This always has been the case.
You post a picture of Artifax Astronaut to give an example. He wasn't that important for the breed. His sister, Ch.Artifax Arabella of Farnaby was and is behind most of the important British kennels or his brother Artifax Addendum who was Hans Rosingh's (Lazybones) first dog and foundation dog of most European lines. Threebees also was close behind the foundation dogs of kennels as Falmorehall, Bredwardine, Bulliff, etc... Not exactly the kennels known for bad heads. Overnoons Mr.Micawber, a son of Threebees wasn't exactly what I would call a bad head and certainly not long. His son, Langton of Falmore was, according to Mrs.Sarah Windham (Falmore Hall) not only her first dog but also the type she was looking for.




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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #84 

Carl,

 

When you see a good head, why attribute it to the dog that also passed poor heads?

 

The reason that Boswell wasn't "important" was his genes and his relationship to the dog which contributed those genes.......Threebees!

 

Threebees isn't the "only" dog in the pedigree!

 

Good heads can come from a whole host of other dogs (both males & females) and although it is unpopular to point out a fault in a popular dog, which appears in many pedigrees, it's silly to play ostrich as well.

 

If it's there, it's there and there's no reason to protest it, if there is objectivity at work. Don't get me wrong, feel free to disagree, but back it with logical facts that can explain the weak head and why Threebees should not be faulted for passing it on?

 

*Note....I use Threebees as the example, because he is closer in, but in reality The Jason of Copenore/Sparry connection is what is at work behind Threebees.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #85 
I would never have used Threebees since I don't like his head type and  because I use to breed on phenotype in the first place. I always look at the head first. Soundness in a dog is for me as evident as tires under a car. I only look at a dog's pedigree if I like it's phenotype. Huge bone is very important to me too. I don't believe that Threebees still has some influence whatsoever and when this would be the case then only one person is to blame, the breeder who allows this kind of heads to be bred with.

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #86 

I admire your openness and "phenotype first" way of assessing the choice of whom to pick.

 

When Threebees was used, the conditions in England and elsewhere wasn't fantastic. He had something that was very needed at that time, in that he possessed angulation. I felt he was over angulated, but I think that was one reason that other negative attributes may have been discounted, or overlooked.

 

The problem in overlooking the negatives, is that they get passed onto future generations ( see my earlier post showing Boswell ). Unless a line dies off entirely, those genes don't die, they still get passed on and present themselves ad infinitum. They may skip generations, but they are still there. The Jason of Copenore/Threebees connection was probably one of the most prolific use of individual mastiffs in history and those genes saturated the breed. To believe that those genes are no longer operating, or present, would be an error in my view.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #87 
The post put up on the neos above is misleading  I think..the black bitch is not a good example and missing information could lead one to think the neo has suffered at the hands of breeders!
.for the record here is a pic of Brigante, world champion, and Perla, classed as one of the worlds best female neos.
In relation to type..I understand the Neo was originally a large mollosser breed, as depicted in old paintings etc,  which deteriorated to lesser proportions over time ...so the pic you used for 'then' is taken out of this context..also postcard of 1920's neo shows this deterioration..
Italian breeders set out to rebuild and develop the neo back to its former glory...so we have the Brigante of today..this is in my opinion is an example of successful breeding on behalf of the Italian breeders not a lack of understanding of Type at all!!

Interestingly they used English mastiffs to rebuild this breed..Brigante's GGS was an English mastiff!!
So think twice before saying one of ours looks like a neo..reality check..most neo breeders could show you the EM influence in the neo!




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Reply with quote  #88 
Furthermore here is one of Brigantes's sons...showing he can in a couple of generations breed true to type..he is known for this.

Incidentally they bred the EM into neos for the 'bone' . Now I don't know why our breed doesn't have bone like some of these neo's do? Have breeders been selecting on other criteria maybe?
Also do you think they are concerned about 1920 or EM recessives or their influence... or do they just get on with the development of the breed?

One thing is for sure..the type development is being done in the country of origin!
This is respected apparently!




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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #89 

http://www.neapolitan.org/html/history.html

 

Key excerpt:

 

"The Mastino's type, its unique appearance, was created in the Neapolitan countryside by years of inbreeding. As a result, the traits that make the Neo an unusual dog: its wrinkles, dewlap, loose skin, enormous bone, and distinct lumbering gait, are created by an accumulation of recessive genes."

 

 

The "Original" Neo's looked quite different than these over wrinkled specimens. And the bone that you admire is part illusion, due to the extra skin folds over the radius, ulna and wrist. Shorter legs also add to the bone width and density. No doubt a fluff Neo, would present even more "bone"!These dogs have poor feet, for the most part and no doubt their original progenitors were larger sized less wrinkled dogs.

Just as in the shar-pei, over wrinkle, usually indicates a controlled reduction in past frame size without affecting the skin proportions, that's what creates the wrinkle. Very often Shar-pei pups have tremendous wrinkle and as they mature and fill out, they grow into their skins.

 

After several generations of controlled recessive breedings, a dog emerges that is very unusual and unique, but further away from it's original roots. In nature, this form would not occur.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #90 
Does an American account of the history change the fact Italy is the country of origin and that they have developed the type...the above information in my posts came from breeders in Italy..not an American website!
Everything is an accumulation of genes...seems some are better at working with this maybe.....mind you Italian breeders describe what they do as an ART!! Oh to be Italian...they are so charming!

Are you saying the Italian breeders don't know what the ORIGINAL neo looked like?
Of course...only an American would know this?


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #91 

Well Karen,

 

You always have the option of contacting the American Neapolitan Mastiff club and telling them that they should listen to you, instead of their own sources of information. Perhaps you can teach them all something about their breed.

 

http://www.neapolitan.org/html/ushistory.html

 

 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #92 

Also from your link
In those countries where the Neapolitan Mastiff has achieved a steady population, the breeders have tended to focus on that aspect of the breed which adheres to cultural ideals. For instance, in Italy, the focus is on type over size and soundness. In Germany, the focus tends to be on size first, then type then soundness. In the United States, the focus has been on soundness, then size, then type. Only in the last five years have US breeders regularly been able to produce formidable dogs of the splendid type that amazes and awes true Neapolitan Mastiff fans world-wide.

SOUND FAMILIAR?

As proof of this we offer two examples. The A.T.I.M.A.N.A. hosts a prestigious annual show attended by hundreds of Neapolitans from all of Europe. In 1994, for the first time an American-bred Neapolitan Mastiff competed. Ironstone Islero II, owned by Mr. Harry Booker, and bred by Dr. Sherilyn Allen, took third place. It was a victory for the Americans in a traditionally Italian-dominated event, and a significant victory for this dog as he was adversely affected by the long flight over. The judge commented that he would have picked the dog to win had he (the dog) been feeling better.




Now look at the picture of Sansone and the one of Brigante.....

CAN YOU SEE A DIFFERENCE IN TYPE?
What is the problem here....more to the point..who is the problem?

Seems to me the Americans have done to the Neo what they have done to the Mastiff!



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Reply with quote  #93 
Steve..I have no need to CHANGE anything.....just pointing it out.... thats all!
After all history is history right? NOT

More to point  'knowledge is power'... as the saying goes...and how that knowledge is presented is HISTORY...and once the historian establishes himself....well ...

Unless you do your own research that is!

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #94 

Since you enjoy history Karen..........

 

Bashing America is the norm nowadays, but the facts still remain the facts.

 

Since you are relatively new to mastiffs and you're from New Zealand, you may not be aware of certain facts that existed in America probably before you were born.

 

Approx. 60 Years ago, the mastiff in America was at, or about the same level as the mastiff in England.

 

Both countries suffered from the war years and the breed was in the midst of re-establishing itself through cross continental breedings etc.

 

Fast forwarding for a moment, the mastiff in America c1970's, varied in type just as it did in England, but suffered from a whole host of structural issues.

 

Most breeders did not address the medical issues and due to a limited gene pool the issues continued to get worse. At some point, the American  breeders started to enforce stricter guidelines for medical issues and judges were also voicing their concerns more often. Type took a back seat in favor of structure and because of these American efforts, the breed today is much sounder in this country than anywhere else in the world, including England!

 

That said, breeders in America are now breeding for type as well. We have succeeded in that department as evidenced by the increasing number of BIS awards given to mastiffs in America.

 

The American judges use our AKC standard as their guide and usually enforce that standard with less impulsive personal subjectivity, compared to some British judges.

 

As the late judge Keith Taylor once remarked to me, "you have some better dogs here than we do, I don't understand what you folks are complaining about!"

 

I trust that our model is working, albeit slowly and perhaps the rest of the world will soon start to take notice.

 

No doubt that there will always be one, or two dissenters!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #95 
Steve..thankyou I have done some research on the history of the mastiff..I just thought for someone whom others consider a historian the facts were not right about type and the neo is all..and the correlation between the breeds and who is breeding what is fascinating
American bashing?..mnnnmmm.....more the attitude I have a problem with.....no doubt you will prove yourselves to be bigger, better lalalala than the Brits so we have to take notice....I guess British bashing is required in order for someone to be the best?
bash away

Regardless... my point was about 'type'

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #96 

I love the Brits!

I drive their cars, buy their breeds, enjoy their culture and even took the QE2 6 times!

 

I just think their standard needs a tweeking!

 

Is that bashing Queen & country?


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #97 
Well I am glad to hear it Steve...I have a FORD!
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #98 

English Ford no doubt!...LOL


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #99 
asian FORD now I think...I do watch America Idol though...
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #100 

You just watch it to see Simon!...LOL

 

He's British!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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