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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #1 

Click image for larger version  Name: scan0012.jpg Views: 55 Size: 594.67 KBcompare Sean to Brutus

http://www.marcymtnmastiffs.com/Brutus.htm


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #2 

Brutus:  Very typey overall.  Heavier boned, good angles, thick/heavy neck, wide head, broad muzzle, correct tailset, thick/heavy rear, good pigment.

 

Sean: Good angulation, nice chest, head is more narrow (by picture), muzzle is longer, not as much depth of body, tailset is lower, much thinner neck, good pigment.


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Nicci

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Reply with quote  #3 

Personally the type I prefer is Brutus.


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #4 

Two different standards, two different time lines, two different "dogs du jour"!

One American AKC, the other based on the OEM.

 

These are two different breeds!

 

It's just that we can't accept that fact!

 

Yet, we interbreed similar types and "hope" for the best!

 

Make no mistake, MM still has a MAJOR impact on trend in type.

 

The big "bull-mastiff/ dogue de bordeaux" has become the desired template in 2006!

 

Perhaps that's what an "ideal" mastiff should look like! Personally, I'm not sure!

 

I know what the standard states, but that's open to interpretation and everyone has their own mindset as to what a "great" mastiff should look like!

 

Jos. of Hellingly represented the "ideal" mastiff of his day. Is he no longer "correct"?

 

What is a mastiff?

 

S.O.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #5 

Steve and Chris,

Thank you so much for your views.  I'm sure your knowledge will be much appreciated by all.  It's so nice - thank you.  Chris, if you have anyone you would like to invite onto the board, please do so.


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #6 

Hi Chris,

 

Glad to see you here!

 

The "1/3 larger in circumference", seems to be accomplished by short legs rather than by overall size.

 

 

My argument is not about which type is better. I'm concerned about the double standard and the addition of subjective interpretations of those standards!

 

We all admire great mastiffs and most of us know one when we see one, regardless of what the standard states!

 

Ajax of Hellingly was considered a great mastiff in his day and the mastiff enthusiasts back then had a certain type of mastiff in mind which they considered "correct". Things are not any different today.

 

I keep hearing that "once we get type we can get size back, in one or two generations". It sounds great, but where are all those typey 34" mastiffs?

 

S.O.

 

 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #7 

"We all admire great mastiffs and most of us know one when we see one, regardless of what the standard states!"

 

Yes Steve, I know what you mean.  Even though my dogs have a certain "look" that I like, I still see the occassional dog that has a different look, but still knocks my socks off.  When I see a nice dog, the first thing that goes through my mind is "how could that dog compliment my line"?


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Nicci

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Reply with quote  #8 

I know what you mean... when I see certain girls my mind starts running away with what Cooper and her would produce.  If I could get his this.......if I could get her that......God help me whenever I actually do get to breeding!! LOL


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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #9 

Great post Chris, I agree with you.

 

 


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Tamara Berry
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #10 

Thanks Tamara.  Steve, you bring up another good point that shows another difference in type that is not written, but is understood in the standard.  Since we keep using Brutus as an example, I will as well.  His body is very near 2/3 of his height.  That is what is looked for in the UK standard and that is what our standard is created from.  That is where the AKC changed the standard a bit.  The UK standard calls for the chest to fall below the elbow.  That is not required here, so we have a tendancy to accept less mass.   With that said though, our AKC standard definately ALLOWS a more massive chest that falls below the elbow.  Look at Tamara's dogs.  She has not just settled for passing the standard, but she has went well boyond that with her dogs.  Shortness and correct do not go hand in hand either.  We just have to get more than half that height from the chest!  St. Patricks dogs are not short, but they are correct.  I only have two boys.  One I bought and one I bred.  He was the only boy in that litter.  Both of them are about 32 inches.  That is a little short of your 34, but those boys are around.  I have 2 bitches at 32 and another bitch at 33 inches.  Theiy have brothers that are 34 inches.  The last litter I bred is only 6 months at this point, but there is one boy in that litter that is already 150 lbs!  His mother is the 33 inch bitch.  I am sure he will be 33 or 34 when he is done growing.  I am not going to make the assumption that this boy will be as nice of an example as Brutus, but hopefully he will be a large and correct example of the breed.  He is a very close relative though.  LOL  At this point, his chest is already well below the elbow at 6 months and close to 30 inches.  There are several dogs bred to the old standard that are 34 inches.  Greiner Hall prefers a male around 29-31.  That is what their website has always said, and that is what they breed for.  They have linebred from Medicine Man because that is their ideal.  That is a personal choice of theirs.  It is not that they could not breed taller dogs, they have in fact.  They just prefer that style dog.  My 33 inch bitch comes from their lines and they did not keep her.  I am glad they didn't!  LOL  The stud I just used from Bredwardine lines is around 33 inches as well.  Hopefully he passes that size on.  Momma is a little short!  Chris


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Chris Murphy
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #11 

Most pedigrees strong on MM, also have dogs that don't average beyond 30". There are always exceptions, but for the most part the genes call the shots. The only way to breed bigger is by breeding to bigger dogs. Stating that one wants to only breed 29-30" dogs, is basically resigning to the fact that by breeding up, you will lose something in the process. What I'm saying is that it's very hard to get height in 2 generations without something else going amiss!

 

The danger is in establishing 30" and under as correct, because the "type" is so desirable and then 20 years out, there are no 34" mastiffs anymore!

 

Got to run...the "boss" is calling me!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #12 

I understand what you are saying, but I strongly disagree.  There are always deviations when breeding.  Nicholas was a shorter dog, but he had a 32 inch brother.  They used Nicholas because that is what they like.  Go back and look into the size of some of the other kennels that linebred on Medicine Man!!!  Cobourngore and Fan C Acres are linebred from the same stuff.  Repeatedly and for genetations producing consistent males from 33-35 inches!  Females from 31-33!  They linebred from Greiner Hall Chancelor that was simply like Nicholas' brother.  Taller than average.  They took that and linebred on it from there.  After so many generations, the dogs being produced are from the efforts of the breeders and not by the dogs they started with.  I hate to keep using Tamara as an example, but she has greatly impoved her consistency and type from what she started with.  I have increased the overall height of my dogs in a few generations without losing head or bone.  After a period of time you see different individuals ideals being expressed more so than what they started with decades ago!  That is why it is such a touchy subject.  It is something that we all feel adamant about.  I am right BTW.  Just Kidding, but that is what we all feel isn't it?  Even the best of us trust very few other peoples oppinions over our own.  Especially when it is simply about a preference!  LOL  Chris


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Chris Murphy
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Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #13 

Thanks so much Chris, I have been involved with Mastiffs for almost 15 years now. I started researching the breed in the late 80's. I firmly believe a Mastiff should be "massive" wide deep body, large impressive noble head, very large bone, and of course a balanced structure. I think the really deep bodied dogs tend to look shorter than they really are. I don't think they have shorter legs, just that the chest is so deep below the elbow that you don't see the leg like you do on a dog that is above the elbow or just at it. My average boy after 5 generations is generally 30 - 32 inches tall. I am happy with that height, and would be happy with a taller boy as long as they carried the depth. My #1 pet peeve is a leggy Mastiff. I have a couple here now that barely meet their elbows and it drives me crazy. If or when they are bred I will definately work to improve that. Brutus is definately my type of boy and  I think he is a good representative of our breed standard.

 


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Tamara Berry
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #14 

Thanks all for this informational thread.  Now I'm going to go look at your mastiffs on line :-)  not to mention some others and attempt to educate my eye.  Just learning here!  I do prefer a massive mastiff with height - that's what really catches my "young eye."

 

Chris - would it be appropriate to ask if you would post a picture of your opinion of the correct head/expression?  Would love to see....

 

Thanks.


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Monica
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NancyE

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Reply with quote  #15 

I'm going to throw my two cents in here, as I have seen Brutus up close and personal.

 He is truly an impressive dog - and as great as he appears here, I can honestly say his pictures don't do him justice. I've seen many dogs who look awesome in a picture, but when you see them in person or on a video they don't really measure up to their still image -- Brutus surpasses his. As heavy as his bone is, he is a powerful mover, and he has an excellent Mastiff temperament. I intend to use him in my breeding program.

 

 

EDIT: geeze louise I sound like I'm giving a lecture or something! How about I just say "I love Brutus"?


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Nancy
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NancyE

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Reply with quote  #16 
Bump for Anthony
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #17 

Two great specimens of their day!

 

Two different types based on what their breeder's held up as, "the ideal".

 

Also two different types, based on the various prior crosses, which shifted the genetic stability and changed form.

 

Opinions welcome!

 

Joseph of Hellingly

Hollesley Medicine Man


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #18 

I prefer MM to JH.  I feel like JH almost looks like a mix - his nose is long and I can see much of the dane look in his face, even body - after looking at all the recent pics of really nice mastiffs - JH almost looks like a "mix."  MM - he is just a solid nice dog - he looks like a very strong powerhouse.  This is coming from a gal who likes a bit of height on a mastiff....  I am very  much warming to the OEM look - I would however like to see a look like MM stand at the very lowest 30" - 31-32 would be desirable for me with the same body.  Yummy! 


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Monica
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
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Reply with quote  #19 

I find this threat is very interesting for myself, because I do have two different type of dogs here at my home. I am attaching pics of them so you all can see the difference. I do have large( 34 inch and more and 240 and more) dogs who still very balanced and well proportioned and they are passing their size and bone and soundness from one generation to another( this will be my 5th generation of mastiffs with new added dogs). I also had a great success with the dogs I had at the show ring, judges sims to liked them and they normally finished fast, but... I really got attracted to a different type of mastiff as well, MM TYPE I must say(their massiveness, huge heads), so I went out of my lines and got two of this type of mastiffs ( one from Tamara and one from Becki) and planning to blend them with dogs I already have( like my Nessy, Uma and Jack). We are talking about serious out cross there.

 What I will get after doing this, God knows, but I think it will be interesting to see the results, both sides are tightly linebred , both have lots of depth, my line has more giant dogs behind them, but slower maturing, which is understandable, they need lots of time to feel out this huge bodies, other side has more massive and fast maturing dogs behind them.

I may will not be happy with the first generation, my ideal mastiff male is 33 inch and 230 pounds and able to move smooth and girls are 29 inch and 200, I may will have it ,may not... time will show, but I sure will try : ) Wish me long life!!!

 

BTW LOVE  this Brutus boy!

 

Olga


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NancyE

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Reply with quote  #20 

Olga your dogs are awesome, simply awesome. I'm excited about looking forward to your future generations! 


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #21 

Olga,

 

Most here know my feelings about mixing type.

 

You have been producing some fine mastiffs and "that" is what you should continue to do by not changing your formula.

 

It doesn't matter if you get a nice specimen or two out of the "mix", because you will also be infusing greater variations in type, which will be passed on to future generations.

 

They say, "if it works don't fix it"!  Your programs seem to "work", why not build on what you've achieved. The MM introduction might reduce height and not get you where you want to go.

 

Coca cola & 7 up don't mix well, but they both stand on their own very well!

 

Just a thought!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #22 

Steve, I have to respectfully disagree, I am not mixing different type of dogs with mastiff in the background , but within same breed, besides everything is about selection and this is a years and years of work. Another very important thing I forgot to mention, beautiful dogs I produce do not live long being so giant( at list not long enough for me , 7, 8 years is not enough), Shorter dogs looks like have a longer life, paradox? I know you can bring up Matts Joshua and few other huge guys, but in general big dogs live us too soon. Lines I have selected dogs living up to 10-12 years old and this is another very important aspect for me and many of us who went through enormous pain loosing loved ones too soon. I am not planning to make drastic changes at once and I have been around giants over 22 years now, but with careful selection even one person capable to make some changes in a life time or achieve some goals they are setting for them.

 Breeding without of plan or goal it like walking nowhere.

Olga

Ivory mastiffs

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PrayerboxMastiff

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Reply with quote  #23 

Olga very well said. I to love Tamaras dogs and yours alike. You both have wonderful dogs and Olga I hope someday to meet your kids and beable to hold one of your Ivory mastiff babies in my hand. I have to say I love Uma and Jack WOW!! The cross is amazing YOU GO GIRL!!!! GOD BE WITH YOU AND ALL YOUR KIDS IN ALL YOUR MASTIFF DREAMS

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #24 

Olga,

 

I like you and your dogs, but I disagree with your plan.

 

ALL dog breeding is basically breeding like to like. The fact that we give them "breed names" is only to convince ourselves that we have successfully achieved type.

 

By stating that you're "still" breeding mastiffs, albeit different types, is only an illusion. If I heard you wanting to mix a dobe and a rott, most fanciers of dobes & rotts would be up in arms against it. We are deceiving ourselves in believing that we are still not crossing breeding and all because those breeds fall under the umbrella called "mastiff" we think that it's OK!

 

Type to type is the only way to reduce future variation.

 

Longevity will always increase with smaller mastiffs.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #25 

Steve, You should give Olga more credit. Olga selected a breeding that is very like her own. Corky is the sire of the pup she got from me, and if you would look at Corky and Jack (Olga's boy) their head type is very similar. Also Corky's pedigree does tie in with Olga's lines. The dam of Olga's pup is Gertie, who is very similar in head type to Olga's Nessy. So while Olga did select a different bloodline, she did select dogs that were similar to her own. As far as "short" Why don't you ask Olga how short her puppy is.

 

Olga has a very good eye, and I would never doubt her. I assure you she did not fly across country "twice" without doing a great deal of research.

 

 


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Tamara Berry
St.Patrick's Mastiffs
http://www.stpatricksmastiffs.com
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