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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #26 

Tamara,

 

You sound a bit defensive! I'm not knocking your dogs, or Olga's dogs! No doubt they are fine specimens.

 

Olga states, "I really got attracted to a different type of mastiff as well, MM TYPE I must say(their massiveness, huge heads), so I went out of my lines and got two of this type of mastiffs ( one from Tamara and one from Becki) and planning to blend them with dogs I already have( like my Nessy, Uma and Jack). We are talking about serious out cross there."

 

That's when I get concerned. It's not a matter of giving Olga credit, I give her credit and have publicly stated that.

 

Olga is experimenting, she has every right to do it, I just don't believe it is the correct approach. There are many lines which combined MM. We are already saturated with MM. Perhaps Olga wil get another Wallon, that's not the point I'm trying to make. You state that they are both the same "type". Perhaps you could explain how that can be and why the need to combine a "serious" outcross and Olga's comment of "a different type of mastiff"? It does seem incongruous!

 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #27 

CorkyUma & Corky, both fine looking mastiffs. Personally, I see different types between the two.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #28 

First of all, I have little MM in my pedigree's. I did like him very much though.

 

I could have swore it was you who was encouraging "like to like" outcrosses?

 

Olga has been here.Seen the dogs for herself, had her hands on them.  She and I share countless pictures. As I said many of our dogs are very similar. Boris and Bruce.(sturcture of both dogs is very similar)

 

Corky and Jack not only have very similar head types, but bone size, structure and I think Jack may be an inch taller than Corky.

 

Nessy and Gertie have very similar head types.

 

And her pedigrees do tie in through Ingrid.

 

Olga wants a little more depth of body, and she wants to add longevity. My dogs generally live to 10 and older. She also selected linebred pups for this cross.  

 

Olga has been doing this a long time. Time will tell if her choices produces the results she hopes to gain. I for one think the cross will be a nice one.

 

If I have time today, I will do side by side photo's of the dogs that are similar.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #29 

Tamara,

 

I am encouraging like to like outcrosses!

 

Olga stated that they were a different type!

 

How should I understand that other than how it was written?

 

Olga mentions both dogs, in the above pictures, in her future plans. They are great looking mastiffs, but on those shots they look like different types.

 

BTW, I think your mastiffs are extremely great looking! If I didn't think that, I wouldn't state it!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #30 

I hope I don't mis represent Olga, but I don't think she meant it as two totally different types. She wants to add some things but I don't think she is going for "totally different"  she is quite happy with what she has. Like I said, I think her intentions were to add a bit more depth, and width and maybe a bit more wrinkle.

 

I appreciate the nice comments about my dogs. But that pic of Corky you posted is a 14 month old Corky. He is now 2 1/2 and has matured a lot.

 

Here is a pic I did of Corky and Jack together. Jack is Uma's brother

 

 



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Reply with quote  #31 

Steve, I did say : different type of mastiffs) and specifically put pic of Kira( puppy I got from Becki, I happens to like her looks a lot) and she is totally different type and looks no doubts about it, she has Tamara's dogs in her background. I did not say that I went to get MM pedigree Then I would just buy dog from Grainer hall, I said I went to get MM type of dogs, because I happens to like this kind a lot. I did not say I want to reverse my breeding program, but add some features MM type of dogs have( more bulk, massiveness, huge heads, shorter necks more compact).

 Puppy I got from Tamara turnout  to be different then I expected, LOL!

Riot is 34 inch and close to 200 pounds at 13 month of age, this is not what Tamara breeding, but this is what kind of gen combination I got in him. Breeding is always unpredictable unless you doing line-breeding all the time and still will get variety time to time.I did two breeding's of Nessy and Sabien( not close line-breeding) , had 10 puppies total and most  of them have different look.

 I know I will not get consistency in the beginning, but will select dogs I like and keep going, at least I will not face problem doubling on some problem( happens when you linbreed) and will have a lots of diversity in their genetic which wll make them helthwise stronger.

 We do have some tiebacks with Tamara's dogs in pedigree but most of the dogs are out cross for my dogs.

I am attaching pic of Riot, my pup from Tamara. He looks different then my dogs, also different then Tamara's dogs( size and height), but he got what I wanted, deep body, wide rib cage, long body and will be very massive( already 200) at 13 month. on the pics he is at different age(10 month, 11 month, 12 month)

 

Olga

PS I have two very respected old time breeders( one of them been in mastiffs over 30 years) and well known at the show world waiting for puppy from Kira and Sabien or Jack or Uma and Riot. Something must be attract them in my breeding program if they approve this breeding. I am not alone in what I am doing.


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Monica

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Reply with quote  #32 

Steve, I have paid a lot of attention lately to your opinion on type to type or like to like.  I have to say (and of course I have a newbie eye) but I'm paying close attention - Tamara and Olga's dogs are beautiful and of awesome type - I know you don't dispute that.  I see a lot of similarity and alot of the same likeness - with subtle differences that would enhance in breeding these two.  Unless one is breeding a replica of dogs to each other (line breeding at its best) - this is a nice close match (in my amatuer opinion) - a good choice for an outcross. 

 

After what I have recently read and some of the research I have done when I think of an outcross to non-like I think of mixing a MM look to a much taller, smaller boned, dane type headed mastiff - better looking, but similar to the above pic of the dog posted with MM - that too me is realling mixing type. 

 

Tamara and Olga:

 

Olga made a comment about her dogs being big and wanting to put some longevity into her line. 

 

Olga would you mind posting a few pics of your dogs that are "big" as you speak - I believe you were talking about height as well as weight.  I've seen a lot of pics of your dogs but not sure which ones are carrying the height and weight.

 

Tamar:  I am not sure how big your dogs are - would you mind posting a few with height and weight.

 

Thanks.


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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #33 

 

Bubba 2 years old 32 inches tall 230 pounds

 

 

Pistol 3 years old, just slightly under 31 inches 226 pounds at last weigh in.

 

 

Malcolm 30 1/2 inches tall 225 pounds

 

 

Alex 31 inches tall 233 pounds

 

 

Reggie 31 inches tall 225 -230 pounds

 

 

Corky 32 inches tall 230

 

 

Orson 34 inches tall 240 pounds

 

I just did pics of some of the St. Patrick's boys. Did not want to take up any more room posting the girls.

 



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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #34 
Orson is orsom! (sic) 
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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #35 

c1931

 

 

A different breed/variety!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #36 

Bull-mastiff c1927.....60% mastiff 40% bulldog.

 

Mastiff c2006... 40% mastiff 60% bull-mastiff!

 

* Note......this observation is across the board. No specific breeder is targeted and no breeder is immune.

 

 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #37 

The mear fact that there ARE "different types", tells me that many other breeders in the past were ALSO "pleased" with their crosses!

 

I'm thinking long term!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #38 

Monica, first I would like to post pics of some of my big guys. Not sure how it will aplode, may be in reverse order:


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Reply with quote  #39 

Sorry, now I can see the order:

1. Sabien, 5 yrs, 35 inch 235 pounds

2. Sabien

3. Hoover age 2.5 on the pics 33 inch 220 pounds

4. Saxon 18 month 35 inch 215 pounds

5. Czar 3.5 yrs old on the pic 35 inch 230 pounds

6. Lord 3 years old 35 inch 230 pounds

7. Lord

8 Jack 18 month old 200 pounds 33 and half inch

9. Saxon 18 month 35 inch 215 pounds

 

This is some of my guysI produced ( sabien came to me from Lazy D mastiffs and he is Ivanas son), he is the sire of my Uma, Ursula and JACK.

 

Olga

Ivory mastiffs

 

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Reply with quote  #40 

Steve, I am also thinking in the long term and you like it or dislike, it always will be crosses between different types of mastiffs. Simply because people are different and has different preferences.

 Are you trying to set the example of what kind of mastiffs we all should breed and if so, then why you? Do you have enough practical( not in theory) own experience, based on which you are telling me that I am doing wrong for the breed mixing different type of mastiffs?

 In my understanding breeding is  the type of Art, because we are talking about health and beauty. Art is based on harmony, this is what we are trying to achieve in our breeding program, HARMONY, balance, beauty. And if I see dog who take my breath away, who cares what type he is. Besides, as many people, as many opinions, some people find my dogs attractive, some would say: so what... I am for variety( in genetic and in type) as long as this is a whole package dog with  health, harmony and balance.

 

Respectfully,

Olga

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #41 

Olga,

 

I respect you and love your dogs as well. I've told you that publicly and privately.

 

You mentioned crossing different types publicly and I responded in kind. I also stated that you have every right to do it. I just disagreed with the crossing of types and stated my views.

 

I hope you get something great, but variation in type has plagued this breed for too long and additional crosses isn't going to reduce that variation over time. My own personal experiences and my involvement since the early 70's won't add to this discussion. Any breeding is an art, but it's also a science! They work hand in hand.

 

I don't breed at present, I don't receive any income from breeding, selling, brokering, touting, etc.

 

I'm not beholding to anyone in mastiffs and I don't need to play politics. I have no "baggage" and no bones to pick!

 

These thoughts are my own and they're not in stone!

 

But I strongly believe what I say, based on what I've learned over the years.

 

The choice can be made whether to take it, or leave it, by those who read what I post. I won't hold it against you if you decide to accept the latter!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #42 

Hey Steve, Would you mind sharing some pics of Mastiffs from kennels that have used the type of breeding program you think produces the best results. (outcrossing like to like types). I would be very interested in seeing several generations of such breedings.

 

 

 

 


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #43 

It hasn't been done.

 

That's why we have inconsistency in type and unpredictability when breeding.

 

We are combining different forms ( breeds ), justifying it by calling them both mastiffs and then wondering why mastiffs don't breed true!

 

Either we really want to see what's going on, or we just need to put down any alternative thought which could help type long term!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #44 

The Doberman standard ends with:

 

Faults:

"The foregoing description is that of the ideal Doberman Pinscher. Any deviation from the above described dog must be penalized to the extent of the deviation."

 

It doesn't end with,...... "any type of your personal liking being bred and combined, dismisses what the standard states and should not be considered a fault"


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #45 

Ok, I try to stay open minded and was sincerely interested. There indeed may be breeders that disregard the standard and continually breed for "What they like". But most of the breeders I know and admire, strive to produce Mastiffs that come as close as they can to that written standard and try to improve with each generation.


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Tamara Berry
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #46 

Tamara,

 

We have no disagreement there. Keep in mind that most breeders have been trying to breed as close to the standard for the last 100 years. Some have gotten close and then as usual type is lost once again.

 

The standard leaves too much to interpretation in my opinion.

 

That loose standard may work for those breeds which "cookie cut" type, but in mastiffs that kind of standard only hurts type.

 

We need to clarify and tighten any ambiguity in the standard ( that's not necessarily changing the standard, it is clarifying it ) and inform all mastiff judges to use a strict interpretation thereafter.

 

If we need to have two varieties of mastiffs, so be it!

 

Whether we know it or not, they already exist! ( just scroll up and see the different types )


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #47 

two different types


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #48 

You will not get a disagreement from me. There are more than 2 types in my opinion. But the pics you posted were quite dramatic. The top dog looks more like a Dane than a Mastiff. And from the clothing I am guessing this pic was taken in the 70's. I think it would be difficult to find a Mastiff that looks like that one today??????

 

 

 

 

 

 


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #49 

Genetically the genes are still there! What masks the type is the "flavor du jour". Scratch the surface and the taller dog can emerge again. Note the balance and ratio of elbow to ground and elbow to withers is about the same on both types! The standard enables both to be "correct"!

 

Would you have ANY doubts about what type you would get from the following match up?..........

 

                                       

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why shouldn't prospective mastiff buyers have the same opportunity?

 

 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #50 

I would not even have a guess without reviewing and knowing the pedigree.

 

I completely disagree with you. If we could not eliminate certain genes, there would be no pure bred dogs. That is why I am a big supporter of linebreeding. There are only so many genes that can be contributed to the offspring of any mating. If certain genes are continually diluted then eventually they can be eliminated.

 

Of course this is a more simple form of genetics. Lets say you breed a Brindle and a Fawn. Of course all brindle puppies will carry the fawn color gene from the fawn parent, but then breed one of the brindle pups to another brindle. A pup could get a brindle gene from both parents and be homozygous for that color. So in that instance, wasn't the fawn color gene "eliminated"???

 

More complex with other characteristics, but still possible.

 


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Tamara Berry
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