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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #51 

You are getting a bit ahead of yourself.

 

Yes, you are correct. In theory you could breed out the fawn color. Now here's the tricky part. You would have only a 25% chance in picking THAT brindle which doubled up on the brindled gene. How would you know which one to pick?

 

Stepping back a bit once more, the inbreeding program to achieve 90%+ homozygous dogs would take you a lifetime to accomplish!

 

Stepping back even further, if you could accomplish "purity" through 27 generations ( + or - ) through inbreeding, at the end you would never have the type which you originally sought in the beginning! The type would have been purified but diluted and in all probability sterile to boot!

 

Therefore, "like to like" outcrossing will eventually accomplish the same goal, without the problems inherent in inbreeding. As long as the "form" remains genetically diverse, yet "like to like" in phenotype, in effect you've stabilized type!

 

Just don't breed to the variations and in time you've got "pure" typey mastiffs!

 

It's akin to building a table from oak & pine. As long as the dimensions are uniform when you cut both woods, the table will be structurally stable, even though it is not homogeneous!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #52 

I am not even trying to achieve a homozygous line of Mastiffs. What I am trying to achieve is a kennel that consistently produces Mastiffs that are good representative of their breed standard. I do line/inbreed. It is quite risky and I know I can/have pulled up hidden recessives and of course that can be a negative. But by doing these types of breedings, I am not breeding as blind. I then know some of the hidden recessives that have been carried along for many generations, and then and only then, can I try to reduce the incident of these characteristics coming forth. Linebreeding, does not create problems, it simply shows you that they are there.

 

My goal is to always do breedings that have the potential to produce better than either parent, and keep the best and do it again and again. I outcross when I need to, but I just hold my breath, and see what negatives I have just introduced and what positives I have gained.

 

I will never make a serious impact on this breed. Very few leave my place with full registration or even the possibility to contribute to the overall population of the breed. But when I am old and gray I hope I will be able to look back with some pride that I did produce some quality Mastiffs.

 

This breed is my true passion. And even if I never have another litter, they have enriched my life and definitely kept the brain and body very active. There is always more to learn and they are a true challenge in many ways.

 

 

 

 


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Tamara Berry
St.Patrick's Mastiffs
http://www.stpatricksmastiffs.com
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Reply with quote  #53 

 Steve, you are saying:

 

" We are combining different forms ( breeds ), justifying it by calling them both mastiffs and then wondering why mastiffs don't breed true!"

 

I n my case who's mastiffs are non mastiffs, mine or Becky and Tamara?

 

Because this is what I am planning to do, combine my dogs with theirs and you said this is wrong and I should stick with my kind of mastiffs.

 

Olga

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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #54 

Oops, forgot to answer, Well without doing DNA testing, (which is advancing by leaps and bounds) The only way to know if you have a homozygous brindle would be through test breedings. Multible breedings to fawns or apricots and after several litters of all brindle puppies, I would think it was a pretty safe bet.


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Tamara Berry
St.Patrick's Mastiffs
http://www.stpatricksmastiffs.com
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #55 

Olga,

You are misinterpreting what I'm saying!

 

ALL dogs are basically dogs!

 

Essentially they are all the same species.

 

We humans intervene and "create" "different" "breeds"!

 

What are breeds?

 

They are different forms of the same basic animal.

 

When I say that we are combining different "breeds" within the mastiff population, I am referring to the different forms/types of mastiffs which really are in fact different breeds!

 

By calling them "mastiffs", we only deceive ourselves of the duality of the varieties which are being combined and crossed.

 

Both your dogs and Tamara's dogs are fine looking mastiffs, so please don't misunderstand what I'm saying here.

 

My only point, is my aversion in combining dramatically different looking mastiffs. Tamara won't be in mastiffs for long, from what she has stated and also feels that she isn't making "that much" of an impact on the totality of mastiffs being bred.

 

My concern, is the cumulative effect by many breeders, who will perpetuate the mixing of varieties and in so doing, create larger gene pools of varying "types" which will continue to confuse selective breeding programs for future breeders and pet owners.

 

I'm just blowing a "clarion horn"!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #56 

Tamara,

 

Is it really a "safe bet"?

 

Look what you would have to go through and the years involved, not to mention the dog being bred might not be worthy of breeding!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #57 

Steve, this will be my final post. I hope to be in the breed for many more years. I stated that should I never have another litter (due to unforeseen circumstances) that I have so enjoyed the 14 1/2 years I have already had in this wonderful breed.

 

I am living in the here and now, with my sites and goals set for the future. I will continue to enjoy this breed and all the joy they give me, and also endure the heartache.

 

True I will never have a serious impact on the Mastiff breed as I do not allow many to go on to reproduce. But I have thoroughly enjoyed my little piece of Mastiff heaven, and will continue to do so for as long as I can.

 

I have been through allot already and I am sure there is more to come. Has it all been worth it? ABSOLUTELY. 


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Tamara Berry
St.Patrick's Mastiffs
http://www.stpatricksmastiffs.com
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #58 

Tamara,

 

We all make a serious impact on the breed in our own way!

 

No doubt, judging from your photos on your site, your impact will be for the better!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #59 

My computer has been down since yesterday and just got back up...

 

Tamara - thank you so much for posting the pics and the sizes of your dogs.  Awesome for me to see.  So hard to judge size by photo.  Orson is absolutely enormously beautiful!!  He must be the dog on your website (I'm assuming with you) on the porch!

 

I personally feel you have done a great job attaining a consistent type and look with your dogs - at least the ones I see on your web-site.  I admire them very much and recently wrote a personal email to someone telling them that I felt you are a good example of creating consistency in look and type with your dogs.  Yes, I am new and some may think my opinion is worth nothing since I am new and just learning.  So, for what my opinion is worth, I think you have made a great contribution to the breed and from what I can see you take great pride and responsibility with your breeding program!

 

Olga - Thank you for sharing your dogs!!  You are right they are big!!  They are also beautiful.  I have not yet been to your site and need to go there TODAY and check out the rest of your clan.  I can see where you might want to introduce some smaller "genes" into your line (not for looks tho) - you have some big babies there and I admire your desire to help them live longer, healthier lives by trying to reduce their size a bit.

 

This thread is very interesting to me as I can appreciate all views here.  I hope to breed one day and there is no doubt in my mind that I will live thru and contemplate just as Tamara, Olga and many, many others have and are about their breeding programs.  Just learning before I endeavor creates so much contemplation!! 

 

Steve is there a way to get you to create a "pretend" situation.  By that I mean, if you were going to start a breeding program - can you (without infringing on anyone's rights, etc.) post pics of the dogs/bitches you would choose to start your program with?  Obviously they would be from very similar type.  Is it possible for you to find pics and post?  Just for my eye's sake?


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Monica
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #60 

Monica,

 

You have seen some really nice specimens both from Tamara and Olga.

 

There are worse ways to begin a kennel.

 

Since you asked me, I would either stay with one type, or two types, but keep them separate!

 

D. B. Oliff and I share many of the same views. We both enjoy many molosser breeds. The mastiff, bull-mastiff, mastiff/bullmastiff, bullmastiff/mastiff/ masiff/dogue de bordeaux mastiff, well you get my drift are ALL to my liking!

 

You see, unlike others and despite years of investigation and collecting and breeding and researching etc. etc. etc.......... I still don't "know" what a mastiff was!

 

I know what the standard states and I am willing to stick to the standard ( when clarified ).

 

I like the MM type and I like other types as well.

 

We need a better guide and breeders willing to stick to that guide, otherwise we have "Dodge City" rules and Boot Hill for the "strays"!

 

People like Ken Pritchard sticks to his guns and although we disagree at times, at least he is consistent with his breeding views!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #61 

Thanks - that was a great way of sharing without having to post pics.   "Sally" is bugging me to come out and play - she has some scenarios based on reality and practicality....

 

For those that don't know - I have an imaginery friend - her name is "Sally" and she has all sorts of mastiff scenarios to talk about... She's got to get the sleep out of her eye and help me feed the kids first tho..


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Monica
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Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #62 

Sound familiar?........read about the "3 types"

 

 

http://www.bulldoginformation.com/dogue-de-bordeaux.html


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #63 

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportunate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #64 

 

 

TUDOR KING OF LEXANDUR                   Balint Of Havengore

 

Both British and both different types!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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bridgette

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Reply with quote  #65 

bump


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Bridgette
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #66 

"The mastiff as it exists today, is an artificial breed whose characteristics are maintained only by the most careful breeding. There is, therefore, opportunity for the greatest diversity of appearance, all depending as it does on the selection and crossing of various strains of blood.

 

The aim of the breeder should be toward the largest dog that can be produced WITHOUT a sacrifice of that most valuable attribute which the breeder calls type or CHARACTER."......Chas. C. Marshall 1897


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #67 

NEO'S




now













then


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #68 

From a Norman H.Carp Gordan article:

 

To some Mastiff authorities, on both sides of the Atlantic, the fancy had gone overboard in breeding the 1:3 muzzle. In England W. K. Taunton, a founder of the OEMC (1883), blamed the decline of the mastiff on the short muzzle. Time and again during the first decade of the 20th century he complained:

 

(1901) ".....the rage for abnormally short muzzles which existed a few years ago...brought with it many faults: dogs deteriorating in height, length of body and in other essential mastiff qualities..."

 

(1903) " Faults such as short bodies, short legs, straight hocks, and bad hindquarters have been far too numerous, whilst the benign expression of the mastiff has to a great extent been lost. Altogether, the mastiff of recent years has approached far too near the bulldog....That the mastiff is a short -muzzled dog everyone will admit but there is a medium in everything; breadth and depth of muzzle... is of far more consequence than extreme shortness, and far more difficult to obtain."

 

(1910) "We do not want dogs with long, snipy muzzles, but we do want them with muzzles bearing some proportion to the size of the dog".


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #69 
Steve, the modern Neo you have pictured looks overwieght and miserable compared the slim athletic build of the old type Neo. 
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #70 

Exactly Carla!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #71 

Steve,

I pulled a beautiful typey Neo boy a few weeks ago from the pound for rescue, he didn't look that 'fat' but had some absolutely beautiful wrinkles and heavy bone and was well muscled. That screams Neo to me. 

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #72 

Glad to hear that you brought Neo into your matrix!...LOL


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #73 
I officially volunteer with Form, but help out several other mastiff type rescues when they need it as there is no one volunteering for them here in the San Diego area. I've evaluated and pulled Neos, Filas and DDBs. I love all the Mastiff types.
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #74 

Over the last 50 years, every major player in the breed, has verbally wanted to see type become unified.

 

Through recorded statements and interviews, it has been observed that the variation in type has been of great concern to all those top shelf enthusiasts.

 

Yet, go into the ring today and we still see the variations in type!

 

Are we not following the standard?

Are the breeders just interpreting the standard subjectively?

Are the dogs telling us that they can't be unified by our breeding practices?

 

Do we just sweep this important issue under the rug for the next 50 years?

 

Any ideas out there? Do we want change? Some have said yes and others have said no! Is that a big part of the problem?

 

How can we repair type so that mastiffs can breed true?

 

What say you!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #75 

 

(A )dog                                            (A) bitch


 

(B) dog                                              (B) bitch


 

 

(C) dog                                                   (C) bitch


 They are ALL old famous dogs & bitches, which show up in many pedigrees of present day mastiffs.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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