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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #1 

A case in point!.................

http://www.olnorse.com/oem/studs/bergtroll/uk.html

Key excerpt: "The only thing we would have changed on Bergtroll is that we could wish that he was a little heighter ( sic )."


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Nicci

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Reply with quote  #2 
Do we know how tall this boy is?  He's beautiful.   I prefer type to height anyday.  For some reason my eye always goes to the more "typey" guys.
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Nicci
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TamK

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Reply with quote  #3 
Thanks for posting that, I haven't been to Kaare's site for quite some time.  Why is your subject line type vs size?  How could we not have type and still have a specific breed of dog?  I would prefer a short dog with breed type over a tall dog with less type, if one had to choose...

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Tami
Skamania Mastiffs
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madchemist

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Reply with quote  #4 

Is height/size not part of type?

 

The only difference between a daschund and a mini daschund is height and size....

 

Do we need a mastiff and a mini mastiff? I dont think so.

 

Theres no reason why artificial selection can't acheive mastiffs with both.


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Clinton Shuey
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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #5 

I have seen many mastiffs with type but not height and many Mastiffs with height and no type. I would go with the typey dog every time. Even if the dog was a little below the standard for height but had a correct head, lots of substance, depth, bone and balance. I would never use a dog with alot of height if it did not have all the other attributes. Height is great if you can have it all, but I have seen very few tall Mastiffs that meet that criteria. When I think of a Mastiff I do think of great size, but I think of great size in mass, not height.


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Tamara Berry
St.Patrick's Mastiffs
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Crossroads

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Reply with quote  #6 

Tamara,

 

How tall is your Pistol?  He is just about perfect  when it comes to my eye and what I love to see when I look at a mastiff.  I can't think of a single person in this breed that would turn him away from their home or kennel.  It's really hard to gauge height when a picture is taken of a dog standing alone, but I would guess him to be 32 inches.

 

If you ever want to send him to me that would be okay.

 

Would you mind posting his picture for us?  The very last one on his page on your site is my favorite!!  Can you tell I have a huge crush on him?


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Jennifer Patterson
Crossroads Mastiffs
http://www.crossroadsmastiffs.com

"Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American GI....one died for your soul, the other died for your freedom"
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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #7 

Thanks Jennifer, Pistol is just a hair under 31 inches. He looks shorter than he is, even to me. But when I see him next to his sire Malcolm who looks taller, but when the two boys are side by side Pistol is definately taller. Pistol is very deep bodied, which makes him look shorter than he is. Pistol is a real ham, I am crazy about my silly boy.


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Tamara Berry
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Crossroads

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Reply with quote  #8 

Tamara,

 

I noticed most of your dogs go back to Boris.  What is his height?  Have you found that it has remained consistent with your boys?


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Jennifer Patterson
Crossroads Mastiffs
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #9 

The problem with short mastiffs............

 

Dogs are usually measured when they are at attention. That being the case, a 28" mastiff, when relaxed, is not a 28" mastiff! They can drop 3 inches or more when just moping about!

 

Miniature mastiffs, could be another breed down the road! I don't see why we would need that, because what would be the bull-mastiff's role at that point?

 

Every time I hear " well I'd never sacrifice type for size " etc. I always cringe!

 

Any rationalization, or trade off, or justification, only perpetuates the screen, so that people can't realize that the emperor may not be wearing any clothes!

 

Go to fullsize image

Go to fullsize image Where do we draw the line?

 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #10 

According to our standard Males should be 30 inches or above, bitches 27 1/2 or above. If anydog falls below the standard it is considered a fault in our breed.  

 

Many breeds have height requirements, minimums and maximums. Of course anything not within those requirements are not shown as it can be diqualifying in some breeds, but many that are slighlty above or below that are lovely representations of their breed standard and are used in breeding programs, with the goal being to retain those strong qualities, yet produce offspring with those qualities that fall within the regulated height. 

 

Mastiff type is what seperates it from all other breeds. Even if shorter than the standard, I doubt anyone knowledgeable about the Mastiff breed would mistake it for a Bull Mastiff. I have yet to see a Mastiff that is outrageously below the standard. I have a bitch that is 27 inches tall. Yet her offspring are all above the standard as are her siblings and parents. Her grandson promises to be one of the largest Mastiffs I have ever produced. She was too strong in every other way to eliminate from my breeding program. Here she is

 

 

I have spoken with many people who relayed to me that there were 28 -29 inch tall males 20 -30 years ago. Have you seen many male Mastiffs today below that? If not, then why would anyone believe they are in danger of becoming minature Mastiffs now?

 


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Tamara Berry
St.Patrick's Mastiffs
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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #11 

Hey Jennifer, Yes Boris is behind the majority of dogs I have now. He is 31 1/2 inches tall. The majority of my boys are 30 -32 inches at maturity. I have yet to produce a Male that is below standard. I have had a few reach 34 inches but it is uncommon in my line.


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Tamara Berry
St.Patrick's Mastiffs
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Crossroads

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Reply with quote  #12 

Tamara,

 

Thanks for answering my questions.  Your mastiffs are gorgeous!!!  I am very partial to the "look" of them.  I currently have a 16 month old male that is a hair shy of 33 inches.  How old are they typically when they stop gaining height?


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Jennifer Patterson
Crossroads Mastiffs
http://www.crossroadsmastiffs.com

"Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American GI....one died for your soul, the other died for your freedom"
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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #13 

Thanks again, It all depends on the bloodlines. Some lines mature quickly and only body out after 18 months, while other lines don't reach full skeletal growth until much later.

 

 


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Tamara Berry
St.Patrick's Mastiffs
http://www.stpatricksmastiffs.com
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Marnay

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Reply with quote  #14 
I don't think anyone could look at that bitch even if she was 25-26 inches tall and not tell she was all Mastiff!

For me, size is not height. It is an all over massive look and substance. I had a true 35 inch boy who weighed approx 250 lbs. Now that sounds like a lot but for his hight he wasn't bulky and massive.

I would much rather have a 30 inch boy who weighted 180-200 lbs and be all over massive looking.

Tall doesn't equal massive, and massive is part and parcel to type in this breed.

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Naydene
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #15 

 Does this head study represent "type", or is it no longer "type"? Who decides when one "type" is no longer the "proper" "type"?


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #16 

Type obviously changes with time. I think the majority of Mastiff enthusiast of today have an idea in their minds when someone mentions a "typey mastiff". Now I have only been in the breed for 14 1/2 years, but I do correspond with other breeders from all over the world. All that I know here and abroad have the basic same idea of "type". So if a large majority of breeders understand the standard and type to descibe a certain look then that is what they are going to be striving to produce around the globe. So I guess "type" is in the hands of the breeders of today. Who else should determine it?

 

No, I would not consider that head "typey"

 

Hopefully some of the other breeders here will share their views.

 


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Tamara Berry
St.Patrick's Mastiffs
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Tamara

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Reply with quote  #17 

Very well said Naydene, I agree.

 


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Tamara Berry
St.Patrick's Mastiffs
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #18 
Uhh, you can tell it is a mastiff if that is what you are getting at.  Needs more stop, but it is certainly a mastiff.  What year was that done?  Not that is applies here, but you have posted other pictures and written what was said about them etc.  It is important to remember when looking at older pics(older than this one probably)  that when the term mastiff is used then it was refering to the mastiff group of dogs and not an individual breed.  That is why I really hate the fact that the AKC simply refers to our breed as Mastiff instead of English Mastiff.  It causes a lot of confusion since there is a mastiff type or group of dogs and more recently there is a mastiff breed.  That is why the picture you posted before showed a saint bernard mastiff.  It was simply a mastiff type dog.  Symantics and wording mean a lot when trying to understand those types of things.  Also the definitions of old terms have been refined over time.
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Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #19 

It's the head of Ajax of Hellingly! ....c 1934

 

He was considered the ideal mastiff at that time and represented the type that they were striving for.

 

The crosses during the turn of the century created many dogs which appeared more like bullmastiffs than mastiffs. The fancy was a short muzzle and it took a number of years to get to a Joseph of Hellingly, or an Ajax.

 

The "type" that any generation considers "true" is always a global phenomenon. People see pictures and then fixate that "type" as "the one" to breed towards. When a "popular" dog e.g. MM gets lots of attention, everyone suddenly moves toward that type and away from prior types because the latter is no longer "fashionable"!

 

An abrupt stop is NOT what a mastiff is supposed to possess, according to the standard! But popular tastes dictate form and in many instances the stop has become more distinct, as in the bullmastiff or dogue de bordeaux.

 

Tastes change over time and nobody really knows what a "true" mastiff is supposed to look like!

 

We only know what we are told and that information is only as good as the ones who tell it! Those people in the "know" usually don't "know", but they are part of the "in crowd" and since they have the political clout, they empower themselves and set type for future generations of mastiff fanciers. They call it..... "progress"!

 

 

 

 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #20 
I for one hope we have improved the breed in the last 70 years. The breed was relatively new then! They were still trying to set type. I am sure that the dog pictured would have been as close to perfect as they had during that period. Do you know how many English Mastiffs existed in the world when that dog was alive? Actually, it says the stop "between the eyes" should be prominent or well marked, but not too abrupt. Don't quote that, it is from memory. When most people talk about the stop, they are referring to the angle at which the front of the face, intersects the muzzle. That is typically much more abrupt that the actual stop itself. It must be according to the standard, since the stop should be well marked and the surrounding skull proportions are supposed to be well muscled. The eye sockets also extruded out past the stop. That creates a much more square look. Some mastiffs do have the bull mastiff look. Personally I feel that is what they were trying to avoid when they say not to abrupt. That changes the stop and the expression both. It does not say that the front of the head should look like a ski slope. From the side, that dogs muzzle would appear more triangular than square!!! The lips are supposed to be slightly pendulous to help complete the appearance of squareness in the muzzle. That is impossible to do if the top of the muzzle angles upwards as in that dog. That is a lovely dog, but much less perfect than many breeders here have accomplished. As I said, I hope we have made some forward strides towards a more perfect mastiff in the last 70 years or so!!!
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Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #21 

Actually Chris, the 30's were pretty good years for mastiffs in England. Many well known kennels were established by that time and gave rise to the Havengores etc. later on. Both world wars took their toll on the breed, but in between those events, the mastiff was actually doing quite well!

 

There existed, at the same time and in the same kennel, the squarer head as well, but the dog pictured above represented a "nobler" look and the Brits just loved Ajax & his sire Jos.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #22 

The above two historical pictures will be moved in coming days, to the historical thread. These larger shots slow down the "feed" and it's best not to implant large pictures in too many threads.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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LazarusMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #23 

I guess I'll have to take your words on that one.  I wasn't around! LOL JK


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Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #24 

A picture is worth 10,000 words!...LOL

 

Just scroll up!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #25 
Some of these old dogs head type is still around - my head type of choice can be found in some of these old dogs - and their modern counterparts.
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