Register  |   |   |  Calendar  |  Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 4 of 8      Prev   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   Next   »
Nicci

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 3,909
Reply with quote  #76 

That's Beau Ideal isn't it?


__________________
Nicci
0
Monica

Registered:
Posts: 4,089
Reply with quote  #77 
This is my next area of study - learning all these dogs.... when pics are posted I don't know who anyone is most of the time. 

__________________
Monica
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #78 

Correct Nicci.

 

Was my explanation of the ratios clear enough?

 

The height issue coming from depth of chest and not length of leg, has always been a bone in my throat, because it doesn't really make any sense the way it is verbally constructed.

 

I'm trying to clarify that issue with illustrations.

 

Technical understanding is very important and loose wording, gives too many breeders, judges and clubs, license to ruin a standard and breed!

 

Short legged mastiffs are not what was envisioned, or desired!

 

Height from depth of chest, instead of length of leg, has distorted the actual meaning & vision of what is deemed correct in a mastiff.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
Monica

Registered:
Posts: 4,089
Reply with quote  #79 
It is excellent to have a visual with the technical explaination. Esp. when its a nice gal like this!!

__________________
Monica
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #80 

That is only one reason why I proposed and wrote a revised standard. Even in my revision I did not re-word this issue the way I would have liked. My revision was a political revision and an attempt to combine both standards into one in order for it to be "acceptable".

 

A better standard would start from scratch and delineate exactly what a mastiff should look like!

 

The British standard leaves too much to personal subjective taste and really damages the breed in the process. Over wrinkled, bloodhound, over dewlapped, high reared dogs are not what the founders envisioned. Some even border on neapolitan comparatives.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #81 
Steve,
To me and to hundreds of other breeders, the English Standard is and always was more than acceptable. I never had a problem reading and understanding it and my language is not even English. When I read "
forehead flat, but wrinkled when attention is excited" I don't read it as an over wrinkled bloodhound look alike. When I read "Lips diverging at obtuse angles with the septum, and slightly pendulous so as to show a square profile." I don't see it as it has to be over dewlapped. The Standard is very clear. How come the old reputable breeders never had a problem understanding the Standard. They bred the foundations of the dogs we all have today though. A little bit of respect for the old values and efforts would be appropriate. Studying the Standard instead of criticizing it would be a much better approach. Don't you think so Steve.
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #82 

 

The British standard is incomplete and leaves "too much" personal subjectivity up to the individual breeder, judge & club. Type has always been in flux and this latest CC winner defines that subjectivity as opposed to what the standard should clearly define. High rears, dewlap, straight stifles, toplines, movement etc. need to be addressed in the British standard and we can't keep falling back on lame excuses, or respecting the "old guard" if the breed is to uniformly improve over time. It would be more disrespectful in not questioning obvious flaws and gaps in the standards, both here & abroad!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #83 

AKC MASTIFF STANDARD

UK STANDARD

PROPOSED STANDARD

General Appearance

The Mastiff is a large, massive, symmetrical dog with a well-knit frame. The impression is one of grandeur and dignity. Dogs are more massive throughout. Bitches should not be faulted for being somewhat smaller in all dimensions while maintaining a proportionally powerful structure. A good evaluation considers positive qualities of type and soundness with equal weight.

General Appearance

Head, in general outline, giving a square appearance when viewed from any point. Breadth greatly desired; in ratio to length of whole head and face as 2 : 3. Body massive, broad, deep, long, powerfully built, on legs wide apart and squarely set. Muscles sharply defined. Size a great desideratum, if combined with quality. Height and substance important if both points are proportionately combined.

General Appearance

The Mastiff is a large, massive, symmetrically balanced, powerful dog with a well knit frame. Highly desirable is a large broad slightly * rectangular head & muzzle (when viewed from above), the total outline of the head in profile is of an almost "square" appearance. * Breadth ratio to length of whole head and face as 2/3 (i.e. 2 width / 3 length)

The impression of the total dog is one of grandeur and dignity. Size, for both dogs and bitches, is a great desideratum with muscles well defined. Height and substance are important when both points are proportionately combined with overall soundness. This is not to be interpreted that a small, but sound dog is desirous, or a goal to be achieved. Dogs and bitches should maintain proportionate dimensions, not withstanding the somewhat smaller size in some bitches compared to dogs.

Size, Proposition, Substance

Size--Dogs, minimum, 30 inches at the shoulder. Bitches, minimum, 27½ inches at the shoulder. Fault--Dogs or bitches below the minimum standard. The farther below standard, the greater the fault.

Proportion--Rectangular, the length of the dog from forechest to rump is somewhat longer than the height at the withers. The height of the dog should come from depth of body rather than from length of leg.

Substance--Massive, heavy boned, with a powerful muscle structure. Great depth and breadth desirable. Fault--Lack of substance or slab sided.

Characteristics

Large, massive, powerful, symmetrical, well knit frame. A combination of grandeur and courage.

Size, Proposition, Substance

Size- Dogs, minimum, 30 inches at the shoulder. Bitches, minimum, 27-1/2 inches at the shoulder.

Fault- Dogs or bitches below minimum standard. The farther below the standard, the greater the fault.

Proportion- Rectangular, the length of the dog from forechest to rump is approx. 30% more than the height at the withers.

Substance- Massive, heavy boned, with a powerful muscle structure and frame. Great depth and breadth desirable.

Fault- Lack of substance, or slab sided.

Head

In general outline giving a massive appearance when viewed from any angle. Breadth greatly desired.

Eyes set wide apart, medium in size, never too prominent. Expression alert but kindly. Color of eyes brown, the darker the better, and showing no haw. Light eyes or a predatory expression is undesirable. Ears small in proportion to the skull, V-shaped, rounded at the tips. Leather moderately thin, set widely apart at the highest points on the sides of the skull continuing the outline across the summit. They should lie close to the cheeks when in repose. Ears dark in color, the blacker the better, conforming to the color of the muzzle.

Skull broad and somewhat flattened between the ears, forehead slightly curved, showing marked wrinkles which are particularly distinctive when at attention. Brows (superciliary ridges) moderately raised. Muscles of the temples well developed, those of the cheeks extremely powerful. Arch across the skull a flattened curve with a furrow up the center of the forehead. This extends from between the eyes to halfway up the skull. The stop between the eyes well marked but not too abrupt.

Muzzle should be half the length of the skull, thus dividing the head into three parts-one for the foreface and two for the skull. In other words, the distance from the tip of the nose to stop is equal to one-half the distance between the stop and the occiput. Circumference of the muzzle (measured midway between the eyes and nose) to that of the head (measured before the ears) is as 3 is to 5. Muzzle short, broad under the eyes and running nearly equal in width to the end of the nose. Truncated, i.e. blunt and cut off square, thus forming a right angle with the upper line of the face. Of great depth from the point of the nose to the underjaw. Underjaw broad to the end and slightly rounded. Muzzle dark in color, the blacker the better. Fault snipiness of the muzzle.

Nose broad and always dark in color, the blacker the better, with spread flat nostrils (not pointed or turned up) in profile. Lips diverging at obtuse angles with the septum and sufficiently pendulous so as to show a modified square profile. Canine Teeth healthy and wide apart. Jaws powerful. Scissors bite preferred, but a moderately undershot jaw should not be faulted providing the teeth are not visible when the mouth is closed.

Head and Skull

Skull broad between ears, forehead flat, but wrinkled when attention is excited. Brows (superciliary ridges) slightly raised. Muscles of temples and cheeks (temporal and masseter) well developed. Arch across skull of a rounded, flattened curve, with depression up center of forehead from median line between eyes, to halfway up sagittal suture. Face or muzzle short, broad under eyes, and keeping nearly parallel in width to end of nose; truncated, i.e. blunt and cut off squarely, thus forming a right angle with upper line of face, of great depth from point of nose to under-jaw. Under-jaw broad to end. Nose broad, with widely spreading nostrils when viewed from front, flat (not pointed or turned up) in profile. Lips diverging at obtuse angles with septum, and slightly pendulous so as to show a square profile. Length of muzzle to whole head and face as 1 : 3. Circumference of muzzle (measured mid-way between eyes and nose) to that of head (measured before the ears) as 3 : 5.

Eyes
Small, wide apart, divided by at least space of two eyes. Stop between eyes well marked but not too abrupt. Colour hazel brown, darker the better, showing no haw.

Ears
Small, thin to touch, wide apart, set on at highest points of sides of skull, so as to continue outline across summit, and lying flat and close to cheeks when in repose.

Mouth
Canine teeth healthy; powerful and wide apart; incisors level, or lower projecting beyond upper but never so much as to become visible when mouth is closed.

Head

In general outline giving a massive appearance when viewed from any angle. Breadth greatly desired.

Skull- Broad between the ears, relatively flat ( rounded, or domed skull not desirable in mature dogs, young dogs may exhibit this trait ).

Brows- ( supercilliary ridges ) moderately raised with a depression up the center forehead from median line between the eyes to half way up the sagittal suture. Center line of forehead angled approx. 35-45 degrees between the eyes and at its peek thereby forming the highest part of the head, which then levels off flat until it meets the occiputal point. Forehead skin slightly furrowed which becomes more distinctive ( wrinkled ) when the dog is at attention.

Muscles of temples and cheeks ( temporal and masseter ) extremely well developed. The stop between the eyes well marked, but not too abrupt dividing the head ( including muzzle ) into three parts, one part for the muzzle ( measured from the tip of nose to the start of brow, perpendicular across the eyes ) and the remaining two parts being the skull. For example, a muzzle measuring four inches should have a length of skull measuring eight inches, totaling twelve inches ( 4 + 8 ) from tip of nose to occiput.  Circumference of muzzle ( measured midway between the eyes and nose ) to that of the head ( measured before the ears ) is as three is to five.

Faults- Narrow dane like heads, very short muzzles, snipey muzzles, down faced muzzles lacking adequate stops, turned up muzzles, small heads.

Eyes

Set wide apart, never too prominent hazel brown in color, the darker the better, showing no haw* ( i.e. the lower eyelid must not hang loosely, or sag in such a way, as to expose the conjunctival surface). Light colored eyes are objectionable.

Ears

V shaped, rounded at the tips, leather moderately thin, set wide apart at the highest points on the sides of the skull continuing the outline across the summit. They should lie close to the cheeks when in repose. Ear color is black, the blacker the better, conforming to the color of the muzzle. In determining the size of the ear, the tip of the ear should meet the outer corner of the eye when gently pulled in that direction, ideally it should not go well beyond that point.

Fault- Houndy ears which hang too pendulous, ears set too high up and interfering with the general outline of the skull, "greyhound ears".

MOUTH & TEETH

Scissor bite preferred, but a moderately undershot jaw is not objectionable, providing that the teeth are not visible when the mouth is closed. Front teeth should be in line not curved and set wide apart and firmly in place.

Fault- Missing teeth.

Neck, Topline, Body
Neck powerful, very muscular, slightly arched, and of medium length. The neck gradually increases in circumference as it approaches the shoulder. Neck moderately "dry" (not showing an excess of loose skin). Topline--In profile the topline should be straight, level, and firm, not swaybacked, roached, or dropping off sharply behind the high point of the rump. Chest wide, deep, rounded, and well let down between the forelegs, extending at least to the elbow. Forechest should be deep and well defined with the breastbone extending in front of the foremost point of the shoulders. Ribs well rounded. False ribs deep and well set back. Underline--There should be a reasonable, but not exaggerated, tuck-up. Back muscular, powerful, and straight. When viewed from the rear, there should be a slight rounding over the rump. Loins wide and muscular.

Neck
Slightly arched, moderately long, very muscular, and measuring in circumference about 2.5-5 cms (1-2 ins) less than skull before ears.

Body
Chest wide, deep and well let down between forelegs. Ribs arched and well rounded. False ribs deep and well set back to hips. Girth one-third more than height at shoulder. Back and loins wide and muscular; flat and very wide in bitch, slightly arched in dog. Great depth of flanks.

Neck

Powerful, very muscular, slightly arched and of medium length. The neck gradually increases in circumference as it approaches the shoulder. Neck moderately "dry" ( i.e. not showing an over excess of loose skin 'dewlap'. (A moderate amount of dewlap is acceptable, but not to become reminiscent of the bloodhound).

Topline

In profile, the topline should be straight, level and firm. High rears are undesirable.

Body

Brisket- wide and deep and well let down between the forelegs, extending passed the elbow is very desirable. Forechest should be deep and well defined with breast bone extending in front of the foremost point of the shoulders. Ribs arched and well rounded, but never barrel chested, or slab sided. Girth of chest at deepest point is approx. 1/3 more than height at withers. False ribs deep and well set back contributing in part to the general length and rectangular appearance of the dog. “Square dogs", or too long a dog, is undesirable.

Underline- There should not be an exaggerated tuck up, only little drawn up in mature dogs.

Back & Loins- Wide and muscular; flat with great breadth. Bitches may be proportionally wider, dogs backs may be slightly arched ( not roached ). Croup/pelvis angle set at approx. 30 degrees creating a slight rounding over the well muscled rump.

Faults- Swayback, roachback.

Tail set on moderately high and reaching to the hocks or a little below. Wide at the root, tapering to the end, hanging straight in repose, forming a slight curve, but never over the back when the dog is in motion.

Tail

Set on high, and reaching to hocks, or a little below them, wide at its root and tapering to end, hanging straight in repose, but forming a curve with end pointing upwards, but not over back, when dog is excited.

Tail

Set on moderately high and smoothly flowing off the spine reaching to the hocks, or slightly below them. Wide at the root, tapering to the end, hanging straight in repose, forming a slight curve, but never curled over the back when the dog is in motion, or excited. ( "happy tail" should not be considered a fault, provided that one can approximate the original tail length based on the existing tail structure )

Forequarters

Shoulders moderately sloping, powerful and muscular, with no tendency to looseness. Degree of front angulation to match correct rear angulation. Legs straight, strong and set wide apart, heavy boned. Elbows parallel to body. Pasterns strong and bent only slightly. Feet large, round, and compact with well arched toes. Black nails preferred.

Forequarters

Shoulder and arm slightly sloping, heavy and muscular. Legs straight, strong and set wide apart; bones being large. Elbows square. Pasterns upright.

Forequarters

Shoulders- Powerful and muscular, moderately sloping with layback of scapular from vertical at an approx. 35 degree angle, straight shoulders are undesirable.

Legs- Distance from withers to elbow and elbow to ground is approx. equal. Legs straight and strong, well muscled and heavy boned, set wide apart. Young dogs may exhibit growth plate "bumps" on the front of the legs directly above the pasterns and should not be considered a fault.

Elbows- Parallel to the body never angled out.

Pasterns- Upright preferred, but slightly bent permitted, provided it does not cause the dog to "go down" in the pasterns during movement.

Feet- Large and round, toes straight ( never splayed ) and well arched, nails black, feet turn neither in nor out.

Hindquarters

Hindquarters broad, wide and muscular. Second thighs well developed, leading to a strong hock joint. Stifle joint is moderately angulated matching the front. Rear legs are wide apart and parallel when viewed from the rear. When the portion of the leg below the hock is correctly "set back" and stands perpendicular to the ground, a plumb line dropped from the rearmost point of the hindquarters will pass in front of the foot. This rules out straight hocks, and since stifle angulation varies with hock angulation, it also rules out insufficiently angulated stifles. Fault--Straight stifles.

Hindquarters

Broad, wide and muscular, with well developed second thighs, hocks bent, wide apart, and quite squarely set when standing or walking.

Hindquarters

Upper thigh very broad, wide and muscular. Well developed second thighs leading to a strong hock joint. Rear legs are wide apart and parallel when viewed from the rear. Rear pasterns are nearly perpendicular to the ground when the portion of the leg below the hock is correctly set back. A plumb dropped from the rearmost point of the hindquarters will pass in front of the foot. This rules out straight hocks, and since angulation varies with hock angulation, it also rules out insufficiently angulated stifles. Stifle joint is moderately angulated. Over angulation is not as offensive as straight stifles, but it is not desirable. Pelvis and femur angle is similar to scapular and humerus angle, thereby creating a balanced structure which compliments the front. High rears are not desirable.

Fault- Straight stifles.

Coat

Outer coat straight, coarse, and of moderately short length. Undercoat dense, short, and close lying. Coat should not be so long as to produce "fringe" on the belly, tail, or hind legs. Fault Long or wavy coat.

Coat

Short and close-lying, but not too fine over shoulders, neck and back.

Coat & Skin

Moderately short and close lying, but slightly denser over the shoulders, neck and back. Dogs showing too much "fringe" and wavy coats are undesirable. Hair reversals ( i.e. "swirls" ) are objectionable, but not to be considered a fault. Long haired dogs ( "fluffies" ) should be considered a disqualifying feature. Skin should not appear to be too loose as to create very noticeable "roll" when the dog is in motion.

Color

Fawn, apricot, or brindle. Brindle should have fawn or apricot as a background color which should be completely covered with very dark stripes. Muzzle, ears, and nose must be dark in color, the blacker the better, with similar color tone around the eye orbits and extending upward between them. A small patch of white on the chest is permitted.

Faults--Excessive white on the chest or white on any other part of the body. Mask, ears, or nose lacking dark pigment.

Colour

Apricot-fawn, silver-fawn, fawn, or dark fawn-brindle. In any case, muzzle, ears and nose should be black with black around orbits, and extending upwards between them.

Color

All shades of fawn ( i.e. silver fawn, fawn apricot, dk. fawn, lt. fawn )

All shades of apricot ( i.e. dk. apricot, apricot, lt. apricot, apricot fawn )

All shades of brindle ( i.e. apricot brindle, apricot-fawn brindle, fawn brindle )

Acceptable brindle variations are: light, or dark fawn ground, or apricot ground in combination with fawns, or apricot alone, with black * stripes evenly distributed all over the dog in varying degrees of intensity per individual dog, but distributed in such a way ( * marbleized or striped ) as to eliminate an imbalance of symmetry in the brindle pattern ( i.e. blank areas ). Mastiffs almost totally black in color (very dark brindles ) are rare, but such a color is not to be seen as a fault.

Muzzles, ears, and nose must be dark in color, the blacker the better, with similar color tone around the eye orbits which may continue perpendicular across the orbits as well. Black "ticking" may appear on the head, tail, chest and back and should not be considered objectionable.

White anywhere on the body is not desirable, but a small patch on the point of the sternum, or toe should not be regarded as very objectionable, provided that white does not extend beyond that area.

Faults- Excessive white on any part of the body. Mask, ears, or nose lacking black pigment.

Gait

The gait denotes power and strength. The rear legs should have drive, while the forelegs should track smoothly with good reach. In motion, the legs move straight forward; as the dog's speed increases from a walk to a trot, the feet move in toward the center line of the body to maintain balance.

Gait/Movement

Powerful, easy extension.

Gait / Movement

Movement should denote power and balance, sure and unhindered, with strong forereach and a powerful rear drive. Front and rear legs are thrown neither in nor out, as the imprint of hind feet should touch that of forefeet. In a trot the forequarters and hindquarters are mutually coordinated while the back remains level, firm and relatively motionless. As speed increases, the legs will converge under body towards the center line. Mastiffs are expected to move like a breed which can weigh over two hundred pounds. Smaller mastiffs may move "easier", but should not be placed over the larger mastiff just for that reason alone ( e.g. good type, good size, mass & soundness, coupled to good movement, should always be preferred to good type, smaller size, mass & soundness, coupled to very good movement, all other things being equal ).

Temperament

A combination of grandeur and good nature, courage and docility. Dignity, rather than gaiety, is the Mastiff's correct demeanor. Judges should not condone shyness or viciousness. Conversely, judges should also beware of putting a premium on showiness.

Temperament

Calm, affectionate to owners, but capable of guarding.

Temperament

Calm, confident, affectionate to owners, but capable of guarding. A combination of good nature, courage and docility. Judges should not condone shyness, or viciousness. Conversely, judges should also beware of putting a premium on showiness, or prolonged gaiety in mature dogs. A mature dog shall be judged fundamentally shy if, refusing to stand for examination; it shrinks away from the judge. A dog that in the opinion of the judge menaces or threatens him/her, or exhibits any sign that it may not be safely approached or examined by the judge in the normal manner, shall be excused from the ring. A dog that in the opinion of the judge attacks any person in the ring shall be disqualified.

Type

Variations in type may appear from time to time. Dane like mastiffs are undesirable, as are mastiffs which may be reminiscent of the bullmastiff, Saint Bernard, or bloodhound. Striving for a unified type is what judges and breeders should be attempting to achieve. A strict adherence to this standard will help achieve this goal.

Muzzle, Lips & Nose

Muzzle- Level, broad under the eyes, does not taper and running nearly equal in width to the end of the nose. Truncated ( i.e. blunt & cut off squarely ), thus forming a right angle with the upper line of the face. The bridge of the muzzle is not arched, but straight; in some dogs, occasionally, slightly broken. Of great depth from the nose to the underjaw. Underjaw, broad to the end and may be squared, or slightly rounded at the end, but never snipey. Possessing a strong chin of good depth and bone. Muzzle dark in color, the blacker the better.

Nose- Broad and black in color, with wide spreading nostrils, not extended or turned up in profile ( i.e. truncated and square )

Lips- Diverging at blunt angles with septum and slightly pendulous so as to show a square profile. The flews of the lower jaw must not be deeply pendant.

Excessive flews not desirable.

Feet

Large and round. Toes well arched. Nails black.

Faults

Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog.

Note
Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum.



__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #84 
Steve,
Wow... I'm impressed by the work you put in all this. I pity the judge that has to understand and learn all this but I'm sorry to tell that a good Mastiff head is mainly created by it's correct expression. This is not something you can write down in a Standard. All reputable British breeders will tell you this. To learn this you'd have to go to the country of origin of the breed, talk to different breeders, look at dogs in this country and after some 5 to 10 years of careful listening and studying you might understand what is meant with correct expression. The picture of the dog you published might maybe be a little overdone but HAS a correct expression. This has nothing to do with the amount of wrinkles or dewlap.
The dog you posted is Ch. Faynad King Of Our Cottage. He's a Champion and this means that he has won at least 3 CC's on big shows under different judges. What I don't understand is why you want to insinuate
that this dog is, in your words, opposed to what the standard should clearly define. High rears, dewlap, straight stifles, toplines, movement etc. The judge though, mentioned following : "Magnificent fawn dog truly superb Mastiff head. Huge impressive body of great substance and quality. Grandeur, power, massiveness. Moved exceptionally well for such a large dog. This is what I am looking for."

You also published the worst possible picture to prove your theory. Why not this one from the same website.



Here you can see the dog's excellent topline and body length.
Are all these judges that wrong?? I agree, and most other serious breeders will, that this dog is a bit overdone in head and I also agree that he is a slightly straight in stifle but please Steve, are you really that blind for all the qualities in this dog. I see an excellent specimen of the breed with a beautiful expression, huge bone, length in body, splendid big body, good movement, good topline, etc...

0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #85 

Carl,

 

I'm the most tolerant guy you will find!

 

The Brits have lost their way!

 

If you believe that the photo you put up, is an ideal representation of the breed, I'll do the Macy's window thingy!...LOL

 

I'm not here to knock anybodies dog!

 

As I stated, the dog has "some" very good points!

 

Unfortunately, I don't run with a herd mentality and I see that this emperor has few clothes!

 

It does not conform to their standard, nor ours!

 

This is not what a mastiff should look like and their standard permits these exaggerations to continue.

 

No wonder there has not been a BIS in this small country for this breed! 

 

They need a better, clarified, well defined standard and then their dogs just might improve, to where this breed should be, coming from it's founding locus!

 

It's about time that somebody finally says, what many people have been thinking!

 

No disrespect intended!

 

It's all about the dogs!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #86 

vs

 

Study the topline, angulation, rear, dewlap, neck length, etc.

 

Read the standard!

 

 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #87 
Steve, in the 30 years I've been in Mastiffs, I have never seen a perfect Mastiff and I probably never will. I have seen some very good ones and I have seen a lot of crap as well. Breeding Mastiffs is a hard job. You really should try it some day. One or two litters is not breeding, but bringing quality from your own lines generation after generation is a hard job. Not too many succeed doing so. There is a lot of talk about what real "type" should look like and those who did the least in general talk the most. I have learned one thing Steve and that is to act modest when it comes to analyzing other breeders hard work.
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #88 

Carl,

 

We don't know each other and we don't know each other's experience, or lifetime involvement! ( BTW Carl, your site states that you bought your first mastiff in 1982, not quite 30 years!)

 

I'm being kind, lets leave it at that!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #89 
Carl.. as a person aspiring to be a breeder I appreciate your perspective here. Since a breeding programme is always a  'continuum' of decisions and dogs I try and place examples of mastiffs put up in this context in my own mind. A dog with these qualities has much to offer a breeding programme.
I am facinated with your comments on 'correct expression' . I appreciate one needs to 'be there' in person to learn certain things, and I have the sense that you have indeed done this yourself, however as I am seriously geographically challenged I was hoping you may have some other examples or could elaborate on this further in some way? I understand it may not do it justice but it may help adjust the lenses in my glasses lol
regards karen

0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #90 

http://www.angelfire.com/biz6/EnglishMastiff/rockland1.html

 

32 years ago I attended that show and party thereafter!

 

You can see many dogs which have become legend and founded many well known breeders & kennels!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #91 
thanks for that Steve..I had hoped the the world was big enough for one other persons perspective though....I would of really enjoyed learning some things from Carl as well...nevermind..maybe another day














0
Monica

Registered:
Posts: 4,089
Reply with quote  #92 
I am also interested in Carl's perspective on "expression."  Carl...??

__________________
Monica
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #93 

Perhaps I'm missing something here Karen!

How has anything that I've said interfered with your discussion with Carl?

 

You can talk to him and learn as much as you want from him, regardless of my interactions with him on this thread! 

 

You really are in confluence with your world and you need to realize that others don't always overlap into your personal realm!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #94 
Steve, what about this expression







0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #95 

What about it?

 

Your proving my point Carl!

 

You will show me a ton of various types and tell me that the expression validates the breeding practices and standard interpretation.

 

Some prefer the bull mastiff "expression", while others like a dab of bloodhound!

 

The issue is not what one subjectively likes!

 

The standard in England allows for all sorts of "expression"

 

From Medicine Man to Threebees and beyond!

 

If that's what you feel should be their aim and standard, so be it!

 

Personally, I see no justification for a multitude of types and "expressions" ( which basically is a variability of type ).

 

Either the standard delineates what a mastiff should look like, or it doesn't!

 

Pick your type, but at least have that type incorporated into a standard that ALL can easily follow!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #96 
Karen, you have some wonderful Mastiffs over there.You also have some breeders in Australia that have quite good reputations. Talk with them when possible. Look for a mentor. It's hard to explain what "correct expression" is. It's a combination of all kinds of little 'points'  in the head. Also, in recognizing those little things that would spoil the expression. Light or large, round eyes are some of them. Lack of mask is another one. Correct length of muzzle, lack of filling under the eyes, wrong stop. Position of the eyes, etc... Little things like that. You learn this by looking at dogs. This takes years. Selecting good puppies is another thing that is hard to learn. Some always pick the correct one, some never learn it. Study litters as often as possible and talking with the breeders is the only option. Learn also to respect their efforts even when you don't always agree. Learn from it.
0


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #97 

Steve,

Why don't you take your so called experience and trade it in for some class.  LOL

 

 

0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #98 

Unfortunately, manners and cultural refinement, coupled to elocution lessons, won't add to the body of knowledge when it comes to mastiffs!

 

Either the point is valid, or it's not!

 

If not, state why not, but don't throw irrelevant nonsense in to justify clueless understanding!

 

 

 

 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #99 
Steve, correct expression has nothing to do with what you like or not like but is passed down by tradition. The passing down of correct expression from generation to generation, especially by oral communication. This is not something that is written down but something 99% of the breeders agree on when they see it. Correct expression is one of them. Most knowledgeable breeders in the UK don't argue when the expression is correct. They just know. The "finishing touch" is something you can discuss  but NEVER about correct expression. You just have to know. The general soundness. Well, that doesn't have to be written down in a Standard. When I buy a new car, I expect it to drive. A dog in general ALWAYS should be functional. The Mastiff is no exception to this rule.
0


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #100 
Carl thanks for your reply..
When looking for expression..I am hearing it is a combination of smaller details that all put together give 'expression'.. a growing pups head goes through so many different stages and it seems different lines can as well. Would it be fair to say this quality is best evaluated in a mature adult?
I did have some difficult decisions picking from my curent litter, the breeding was to improve head type and bone....the sire I used was the result of many generations of work by a breeder in these qualities and this dominated the litter...I have wondered about the small eye as described in the standard and medium eye described in the other and how this influences expression..here are pics of 3 of 4 of this litter and there is a variation in eye..first pic the bitch has a bigger eye ..I prefer the second and third pic for expression I think at this stage

0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:


THANK YOU FOR VISITING OUR BOARD!!