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Reply with quote  #126 

Steve, You make this seem so cut and dried in your opinion.  There was more that happened between you and I in between the asking about my dog and now.  Why is it you cry foul when anyone does back to you what you do to them?  That is extremely childish. 

I think, maybe, you and some of your "friends" are trying to make a bad rep for this board.  

 

Becki

 

 

In Becki's case, she once asked for an opinion about a dog of hers, which I responded to and received a thank you from her.  At a later point in time, when her dog matured, I observed another view which was contrary to my first and I felt I would be negligent in not sharing that with her, because I felt it might help her in understanding more about what she was originally inquiring about. For my conscientious response, I got hammered and bashed by Becki! Nicci, you don't see all that follows up to the conflict, you only see the end result and then assume it's all because of me! 

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Reply with quote  #127 

Gina,

 

In all due respect, the political dealings within the MCOA over the last few years has absolutely nothing to do with the issues that triggers the confrontations.

 

New breeders, board members, membership lists etc., are all irrelevant and never get infused in my basic discussions about the dogs, or standards.

 

I have challenged the standard since the 70's, as others have as well. Since I mentioned a number of issues in the standard, that I felt needed clarification, it led to some posters asking me to re-write my version of it, or stop complaining. I didn't want the task, because I knew it would take some time to complete, but after additional pressure I undertook the job.

 

Weeks later I posted my interpretation of that revised standard.

 

Well now, it's come back to haunt me, because every time I get into a discussion of the British standard and my views of that standard, I get....." who are you to think that you know better than the founders", or "are you so pompous as to think you should rewrite the standard, you're so arrogant and so full of yourself" etc.

 

Well I could quietly not respond, or I can respond. When I do respond most only see my reaction and not what led up to it! Behind the scenes I try to reduce these silly confrontations. In fact, one of Becki's friends was sent a private e-mail from me in order to take it off these threads. She quickly posted that "private" e-mail for all to see! Is that also my doing? Jann made her delete it, in case you need proof.

Angie in your own case, there was a member of the Am-Ma group who was going to blast you personally. I was in touch with this individual and advised him that it would be best to calm his reactive anger towards you and just let it go. No doubt you will say that you would have taken him on and knocked him for a loop, but Angie I did it anyway so that you wouldn't have to hear the tirade, which would have been very ugly and personal. ( when we speak privately again I will give you more info ).

 

I stir the pot on issues, in order to get people thinking about those issues and at times I get attacked for the churning of events! Comes with the territory.

 

 

 

 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #128 
Steve wrote : 1/30/07 at 10:41 PM

... The Brits have lost their way! ... No wonder there has not been a BIS in this small country for this breed! ... It does not conform to their standard, nor ours! ... This is not what a mastiff should look like and their standard permits these exaggerations to continue...


Steve, don't you think this a slap in the face of all the English breeders and their view on THEIR breed. This breed is NOT American, it IS a British breed. Putting down the club show winner is a slap in the face of the judge and of it's breeder (who has no relationship with me whatsoever). It is the Brits who dictate how a Mastiff should look like !!! Nobody else. Whatever you might think Steve, there is only ONE Standard, The Kennelclub Breed Standard. BTW, you realize that America is the only country in the whole world that doesn't recognize the original Standard and I can tell you that the British Commonwealth and the FCI are much larger organizations than the AKC ever will be and far more structured. The Kennelclub is the oldest Canine Organization in the world and a little bit of respect for their Standard is the only thing I ask from you.

You might call this rubbish, I call this the elementary of general education and respect. The Kennelclub is the only organization that is allowed to change the Standard. Certainly not you Steve.




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Nicci

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Reply with quote  #129 

Your right Steve, I may not see everything that happens but I do see MOST of what happens on this board and others.  I try to read everything on here to learn all that I can.  And I never assume that it's all anyone's fault. I'm a mom with 2 boys ages 9 and 10 try figuring out who's at fault when something gets broke around my house!!  There are always 3 sides to every story.  My side, your side and what really happened..lol.  And yes I have seen you side swiped but I have also IMPO seen you dish out shots too.  My point is, that to me atleast, you can not seem to peacefully agree to disagree with anybody.  And I have to agree with Gina.. sometimes your delivery stinks.  I know you have a great interest in this breed and alot of knowledge.  But so do the other breeders here that have been hands on for god know's how many years.  Now that's not a crack at you for not being hands on for so long so please don't take it as one.  But it some times seems like you completely dismiss these people and everything that they have learned and done over the years if it doesn't happen to co-inside with your views.        


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #130 

Steve wrote : 1/30/07 at 04:41 PM 

... The Brits have lost their way! ... No wonder there has not been a BIS in this small country for this breed! ... It does not conform to their standard, nor ours! ... This is not what a mastiff should look like and their standard permits these exaggerations to continue...


Steve, don't you think this a slap in the face of all the English breeders and their view on THEIR breed. Not ALL the English breeders! But if those judges admire faults and wish to view the naked emperor as fully clothed, then yes I will point that out! I believe Olga also shared my view! This breed is NOT American, it IS a British breed. Putting down the club show winner is a slap in the face of the judge and of it's breeder (who has no relationship with me whatsoever). Correct! About the judge! The breeder has a right to present his dog and that dog can add to certain aspects of a breeding program. He wasn't a total mess! It is the Brits who dictate how a Mastiff should look like !!! Nobody else. Whatever you might think Steve, there is only ONE Standard, The Kennelclub Breed Standard. You can have that view, but I do not! BTW, you realize that America is the only country in the whole world that doesn't recognize the original Standard and I can tell you that the British Commonwealth and the FCI are much larger organizations than the AKC ever will be and far more structured. America was the only country that didn't recognize the British empire's rule over us in 1776 either! The Kennelclub is the oldest Canine Organization in the world and a little bit of respect for their Standard is the only thing I ask from you.

You might call this rubbish, I call this the elementary of general education and respect. The Kennelclub is the only organization that is allowed to change the Standard. Certainly not you Steve. Look, I'm not going to force them to change their standard, but adding "non-standard" to their existing standard for color is quite simply....stupid!  If it sounds disrespectful....it is!  Am I a horrific being for wording it that way? Perhaps a more subtle nuance would be more polite..........Give me a break!  When did "polite" ever help this breed? If something's wrong, lets just call it what it is!

 

For the record Carl, you have some nice looking dogs and anything that I've stated regarding misinformation was no reflection on your dogs, you, or your kennel! If I feel that you are clueless about an issue, it doesn't mean that I am globalizing your entire persona!

Presidents of clubs are not immune from being challenged and Ed Gerace, Rubenstein et al, were always put to the test by me as well, as I was by them! 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #131 
Steve, I think you may be talking to the wrong Angie, but I just double checked and I'm the only Angie on this thread though....All I was trying to do is agree with Gina on one single point. This is Jann's board - All those who give an opinion on what someone says in regards to it being appropriate ore not for the board are all over stepping their bounds. Jann is the only legitimate judge of that. I've come here to get away from immaturity but it seems to be all over the place. AngieB who is in love with her Ernie.
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #132 
I truthfully did not read all the "reply posts" on this thread.  I did read a bit, but then my head started to spin and I've got horse poop to clean.  I do want to respond.  Nicci I got about as far as your first post and then cut and pastes started happening, I started skimming and then stopped. 

Steve, et. al., most of you know I am very new to this breed and am Jann's mentee!  I stay pretty tucked under her wing and venture out when and where I feel its safe for the time being as I learn.  Steve I have appreciated a lot of your thought provoking threads over the year I have been members of certain forums... however, I have to agree with Nicci  and some of the others.  I have a hard time following (and its not because I'm lacking in intelligence) your posts as they continue in threads.  Things end up IMPO so twisted and convuluted at times that the real msg gets lost.  Your threads cause me to think but rarely do I come away with more knowledge because when I ask a question the answers given are foggy and maybe that's your way of trying to get me to think for myself but most of the time I think for awhile and then need another bone which I cannot seem to get without more circling or someone decides to hang in a thread with you and argue it out and it ends up being who can out talk the other, not about what the thread was started on (perfect example here and yes I'm contributing..)   The thread the other day on "pick of the litter" is the exact situation I am talking about.  There could have been a good discussion there and I could have learned something but instead it was becoming one of those circling and vague response type threads.  I won't really post on that thread again as it seems to just go round without any forward motion.

You have information to offer but we also need to hear from other breeders and if other breeders are not joining in on some of the more pertinent discussions (such as pick of the litter, etc., ) because they don't want to go round with you - that is taking away from those of us that can learn from them as well.

I hope everyone joins in more often.  I know I'd like to hear from others, please.  I hope Steve that you know your information is appreciated but that you can also take the backseat and let others post their opinions without constantly debating the.


I have to agree that kudos are rarely given by you.  You have never one given me a kudo for ANYTHING.  You are kind when we correspond but never have you EVER givin me a kudo.  If you consider yourself a teacher, either you think my thought process, dogs, etc., totally "suck" or you are just not in the practice of pats on the back once in awhile.  Aren't these forums to learn, support and guide?  How can guidance come without an occassional pat on the back to people unless someone is just totally screwing up.  My two cents. 

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #133 

Sorry Angie, it was corrected and meant for Gina!

 

Nicci,

 

You have a way of hitting me over the head and then telling me not to take it the wrong way!..LOL

 

Look, in my long experience in mastiffs ( forget what you've heard from those that never knew me ) there are a few things that I learned about breeders along the way. Now, we can not talk truth, or we can get to the nitty gritty!

 

As a group, I don't respect breeders just because they breed mastiffs!

Allow me to explain!..........I've known quite a few breeders in my time and they range from the elite to the junk yard dog crowd. Scientific breeding of mastiffs was never* done in the 70's and rarely if ever done today. I'm not talking screening for health issues, I'm talking about truly understanding the genetic factors of heritability and how to scientifically use those methods for breeding better mastiffs.

 

Some breeders called it scientific! Some breeders used linebreeding & close inbreeding, but it was done ad hoc and without much think-through. You can ask, how do I know this? Because I was there and lived through it! I witnessed it! I saw first hand that sire & dam of the two dogs being bred to were rarely if ever seen and if seen, were evaluated poorly.  Yet linebreeding was being performed, just because "linebreeding" is good and outcrossing is "bad"! Most people bred the two dogs at hand, or kennel operators used their own studs first before shopping about.

 

Today, we see some breeders using photo pedigrees, showing as many antecedents as availability will allow and in some instances vertical pedigrees are used as well (not often enough), but in the past there were few if any photos of two generations, or more and even if there were photos out there, the breeders just did not pursue them.

 

Every breeder wants to be seen as the top, or one of the top people in the game. Sensitivities run high and objectivity is a rare commodity!

 

I don't dismiss "every" breeder and in fact, I haven't ever publicly bad mouthed any breeder's kennel, or dogs including DR! I just don't assume that because they are "breeders" they automatically know all about the breed! If I disagree with them, after hearing what they have to say, is that a crime? If they get defensive because of my disagreement, is that my doing? If my style is direct and to the point, are the facts being discussed invalid? The thousands of hours that I've put into studying this breed, has been done by very few in this field. It takes years, and if I seem a bit curt at times, after being challenged by someone who has obviously never even read a book on the breed, I ask for your understanding. If I appear terse during a "gang bang" session in progress, just put yourself in my shoes! No doubt that few if any will change their views once fixed! Such is life!

Just remember that you can't hear the tone in my voice over the internet, all you see are letters on a screen!

 

 

 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #134 

Monica,

 

Go to fullsize image 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #135 

 In fact, one of Becki's friends was sent a private e-mail from me in order to take it off these threads. She quickly posted that "private" e-mail for all to see! Is that also my doing? Jann made her delete it, in case you need proof.

 

Steve,

What are you referring to?  Noone has ever sent me a private e-mail by you.  The only thing I can think that you may be referring to is the incident where you posted one of my posts from Jann's board to another board.  Jann also never made me delete anything.  

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Monica

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Reply with quote  #136 
See what I mean Steve - total belittlement - my words don't even get a response just some dumb picture that I am supposed to figure out.  That, in and of itself is condensending towards me - you responded to everyone elses post, but gave me a picture - you don't see that as combative, disrespectful or condescending tho and I am supposed tojust "get it" thru type and on this forum. hmmmm!

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Reply with quote  #137 

I am so sorry Monica.  It's frustrating isn't it. 

 

Becki

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #138 

Becki,

Read what I wrote, I didn't say it was you, it was one of your friends from that thread.

 

Monica,

 

That's John Houseman from Paper Chase fame!

 

I thought it would encapsulate the answer to your question, about my obligation in giving out "pats on the back"! Your reacting as though I slighted you in not giving you a lengthy answer, as I have others!

 

I thought that everyone wanted this to die down, perhaps there's some secondary gratification gained that I'm just missing here!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #139 
For goodness sake - of course it is.. Forgive me for overlooking that and not totally getting it. I am an intelligent woman, much common sense but frankly I spent my college years having babies and taking care of a household, then I spent the next 15 years busting my butt as a legal secretary. Didn't spend a lot of time with my head in a book or my butt in a classroom or overramped on political issues/figures and if this guy is from a movie - sorry too busy taking care of life - I probably didn't see it, esp. if it came out more than 5 years ago.  My learning has been life skills for the most part... So, a post like that is not gonna sink in for me and I am not ashamed of that one single bit.

By the way, just for clarification - I still don't get it. Your loss - you lost me, my attention, my focus - that's the point some are trying to make here....its like a push away because its so abstract...


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Monica
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #140 

Rent the DVD....I "strongly" recommend it! Before you ask, for Jann too!..LOL


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #141 
Steve firstly you are no victim here..you did not get 'gangbanged' by some organised attack. We were all posting as  individuals, and i was trying to learn something from another poster,  it was you who placed us in a 'clique of the clueless and delusional' and who turned us into a gang with your own words in your own mind..please do not act like a victim here. Even so I still responded as an individual.

Overall, just about every thread you start has an intent towards your revised standard,  you have continued when challenged to behave like a 'bully' condescending, demeaning, provocative, and counterpunching..and then like a victim. You seem to have some kind of immunity from treating others in this way and it has esculated over time. Certainly no self censure or otherwise. You have been quick to jump on issues that have been bought up on this board to discredit me, SP s issues, the highlighting of my kennel name, so I take it this means it has gotten personal for you. What does this mean..that if I or anyone have a different point of view there will be retribution? This is the kind of behaviour that lowers the tone on these boards. The nice comment about my pups on another board was in the context of 'the outsourcing, outcrossing' of my breeding which just happens to fit with one of your theories you are purporting. Don't worry I never once considered it was favouritism or anything else other than what it was.
My question here to you Steve is what should I or others do..totally ignore your posts?...never discuss anything or talk with you? that wouldn't be comfortable either.

It is no secret that I have supported the english standard right back from my first posts and discussions with you on this board. I also felt strongly about the name change. I have tried to debate these issues respectfully and from time to time I have had to censure my own behaviour when I have become 'emotional'. I have done this publically and privately. They are contentious issues and important issues..with many having strong opinions about it, this as it should be. It effects all of us.
With  the standard you always say 'you have been asked to do it' as if some great official mantle has been placed on you? Who has asked you to do it and in what context have they asked you to do it?

I 'd like to thank you Jann for providing such a great site and appreciate the last few days have in general been challenging, 'across the board' so to speak.Overall I really enjoy this site and try to contribute and support others threads and posts.  I feel it is important being so geographically isolated to be part of a global mastiff community. However as a foreigner I have no idea of the 'deeper politics' involved... if in fact there are any. If this board is an official  platform for the political agenda of changing the standard please let me know, so I can make choices as to whether I want to be involved.
thanks
regards.


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #142 

Karen get real!

 

You tag teamed me since you had whatever business dealings you had with Chris! When I had my disagreements with Chris, you turned on me as well!

 

I've ALWAYS referred to you as KAREN and I've never highlighted your kennel name to discredit you! Shame on you!

 

I don't mind getting hit, but at least be factual!

 

You don't have to like me, or even agree with me. I'm not entered into any popularity contest! But at least be factual!

 

I never intended to submit my personal revised standard!

 

That's a matter of record and can be validated by a number of posters!

 

I was asked to do it and then bashed for doing it! If I bring it up, it's only in defense of those who continue to try and portray me in another light!

 

I have ALWAYS discussed a change in the standard. You're too young, but if you read old MCOA journals, it existed back then as well! It was raised by other breeders, not just me!

 

If you need to continue bashing me for some convoluted reason of your own projections, feel free. In your own words....how can I be a victim!

 

I'm just 1 poster Karen! Just 1! If you get some juice from attempting to put me down, go for it! I've been worked over by the best! Trust me on that!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Gina

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Reply with quote  #143 

No One is having ice cream after dinner...

love,

Mom

 

 

 

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Nicci

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Reply with quote  #144 

LOL Gina.  At the rate this is going .. nobody is going to get dinner either.  Just straight to bed! 


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Nicci

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Reply with quote  #145 

O and Steve,  I would never bash you over the head..I'm way more subtle than that...

And since it seems we are not going to see eye to eye on this and I can't think of a better way of explaining what I am trying to get across to you, we will just have to agree to disagree.  See.. that's not so hard. 

 


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #146 

Hey MOM!

Don't you know that I'm lactose intolerant!

 

You can take that ice cream and..............................


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #147 

Give it to the dog!....LOL


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #148 

Yes Nicci, subtle like a crutch!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #149 
You tag teamed me since you had whatever business dealings you had with Chris! When I had my disagreements with Chris, you turned on me as well!

See this is the point....you have made this personal..I did not turn on you..I have a different opinion to you is all, it just happenned Chris did as well. If any 2 people disagree with you in a discussion does this mean you are being tag teamed..or as on this thread 3 people... you call it gangbanged. Should we just leave you the 'pied piper' to it? Leading a merry dance.

If you are not going to do anything with your revised standard why are you so obsessed about it? Do you think people who don't understand the original standard could even begin to debate a changed one?

I am not trying to hit at you..... how do mature functional adults resolve these issues? I am trying to find a way by talking it through..but you get more defensive.  It has been suggested I just ignore you right now.....would this mean I accept your all your statements about me in all these posts as true....or that I should just  tolerate being treated this way? Does this mean the person who throws the biggest meanest tantrum is going to get there own way once again? Isn't that how it goes...what do we do with the child in the family that throws tantrums to get there own way...Gina with holding the icecream never worked...


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Reply with quote  #150 
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what do we do with the child in the family that throws tantrums to get there own way


I don't have children so what do I really know, but don't you ignore a tantrum? I hear spanking doesn't do much good
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