Register  |   |   |  Calendar  |  Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 3 of 8      Prev   1   2   3   4   5   6   Next   »
Tamara

Registered:
Posts: 2,778
Reply with quote  #51 

I understand the meaning, "height should come from depth of body, not length of leg" to mean. The Mastiff when measured from the deepest part of the chest/sternum to the withers, should be greater than the measurement from the foot to just above the elbow.

 

So when viewing a mastiff, the chest should be at or below the elbow. (depth of body).

 

There are many Mastiffs that their depth stops above the elbow. (I would consider that "incorrect". Mastiffs that are at or below the elbow would be correct. Erica's girl is very balanced and correct along with the other Mastiffs posted. Their chests fall below the elbow. "depth of body".

 


__________________
Tamara Berry
St.Patrick's Mastiffs
http://www.stpatricksmastiffs.com
0
giselle

Registered:
Posts: 759
Reply with quote  #52 
I really do understand what you are saying -- that you want balance between the shoulder/scapula and front legs ...you don't want too short legs or too long long a leg.  But where does the 50/50 come into play with the standard as it is written now? 

__________________
Giselle
http://www.everaftermastiffs.com

0


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #53 
Erica you make alot of sense...I do not study the American standard...we use the English version..I assume like us, most countries outside of America do? But as you have interpreted it in your post..they are not too different in what they are trying to accomplish..on this point.

Steve I did not say that 'height should come from depth of body not length of leg' was in the OEMC standard...I only linked the word and concept 'proportion' from the English standard to that concept. Reread my post. I also think you are grasping at straws with the Falcon photo..long grass etc

Steve you have some interesting ideas ..and you have certainly collected alot of pics...and must spend alot of time trawling sites on the internet..some of which I have found useful...but in regards to the standard and what a mastiff is ....I think you confuse alot of issues for people who are new to the breed and genuinely want to understand and learn.
You present yourself as some kind of 'authority' of mastiffs to unsuspecting  members.
For people on this site who are genuinely interested in understanding the standard I would hope you would look to the experienced breeders on this site in regards to interpretation...look at the dogs they produce and ask them questions..There are plenty of breeders doing an excellent job of both interpreting and striving to produce better mastiffs..
regards Karen

0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #54 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #55 

Karen, in all due respect, you don't know my history or experience in mastiffs!

 

You can have your opinion and I can have mine!

 

Ultimately the facts will prevail.

 

If you're happy with duel standards and if you believe that it doesn't create confusion for newbies, or breeders so be it!

 

I'm not here to convince you otherwise!

 

 

 

 

 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #56 

Giselle,

 

Stay tuned!

 

Depth of body has nothing to do with height.

 

An open ladder has no depth of "body" but it is high.

 

The fact that you place a deep set body, with a chest falling below the elbow (under the "ladder" so to speak ) has no bearing on height. You can't get height from the body proper. Height ALWAYS comes from the leg assembly, excluding the brontosaurus....LOL


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
LazarusMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,172
Reply with quote  #57 

We can agree to disagree on what the correct proportions are for the lower leg, but the lower leg(from the elbow down) is not the only thing that affects height in a dog.  You are excluding the upper leg and the shoulder from the front and the upper leg and hips in the rear.  Not to mention the muscle and mass laying on top of them.  That is what should take that ratio of lower leg to less than 50%.  The body does not play as large a role in height as the TOTAL leg does, but shoulders and body(musculation) do.  The appearance of a deeper body can greatly affected the ratio of mass but the other cannot be discounted either.  Are we getting any closer to understanding each other now?


__________________
Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #58 

What you mean "we" paleface?...LOL

 

Sorry Chris, I couldn't resist!

 

Check out this thread......

 

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/mastiffmessageboard/vpost?id=1342231&highlight=skeleton

 

The upper "height" is controlled by length of bone, in the shoulder assembly and the angle of layback. You can have a taller dog, due to straighter shoulders, but the length of upper bone assembly if measured might still be the same as in the dog with well layed back shoulders. In the case of straighter shoulders, the upper proportions could change to 55-45 approx.

 

 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
LazarusMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,172
Reply with quote  #59 

Yes, you are right, but there are more options than that.  The angle plays a role in that, but it should not be compromised for a taller stance.  The angle needs to be appropriate regardless.  In a dane, the lower leg is greater than 50% of the height.  This means that their upper leg and shoulder is actually shorter in length.  The mastiff being a massive dog that emphasized body instead of leg should be just the opposite.  That is a good reference to validate my point.  Thanks.  LOL  The dogs are all structured a little different because of bone length etc.  Just like people.  Some are long legged and some are short.  In my oppinion, the shoulder muscle has to be larger.  After all, those huge shoulders we see on really nice mastiffs have to have huge bone under them.  Not just thick. but long and wide.  If not, they would have the smaller dane shoulders.  IMO, what looks like a dane and barks like a dane....


__________________
Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
0
oldschool

Registered:
Posts: 254
Reply with quote  #60 
Sorry for jumping in so late in this discussion, but I have to say that I do not understand what this discussion has to do with the topic of Type vs Size...

First, off, size is a component of type and therefore cannot logically be pitted against it. Second off, the AKC standard gives a minimum height and also states that the chest should drop below the elbows and extend in front of it and says that great depth and breadth are desirable, to the point of faulting a lack of substance.

So, what is there to argue about or question? I think Erica's post is very clear on the matter. Whether is is a dog that is 34 inches tall:


or a bitch that is 28 inches tall:


as long as they meet the minimum height and have breadth and depth of chest as described very clearly in the standard, then they are typey, in those respects. I'm not exactly sure what the argument is about? Sorry if I'm missing something big here....






__________________
Jess
Old School Mastiffs
http://www.oldschoolmastiffs.com/
0
kittykat

Registered:
Posts: 1,145
Reply with quote  #61 

Daaaaayyyyyyyuuuuuummmm. I love this board. Look at those babies. They are stunning.


__________________
Kat
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #62 

Chris,

 

You are mistaken!

 

The dane standard calls for a ground to elbow of 50% to elbow to withers!

 

In the following illustration, used as the cover dog of D.B. Oliff's book, the famous Balint of Havengore shows much too much elbow to ground in this shot!

 

Either he needed to be "higher" from elbow to shoulder, or lower from elbow to ground. His chest is below the elbow.

 



__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #63 

Jess,

 

Type vs height is a bit closer to what is being discussed, so you are quite correct in pointing out that "size" was incorrect!

The header has been changed. Thanks!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
LazarusMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,172
Reply with quote  #64 

The dane standard calls for a ground to elbow of 50% to elbow to withers!

 

Sorry, Steve, but I felt to bad to not come clean.  You were being baited there.  LOL  You are wanting 50% of the height from the elbow to the withers too, but you are wanting it in a mastiff.....  I always knew that you preferred certain characteristics I didn't, but you would never admit it.  LOL  I really do not want the same leg ratios of a dane as I do a mastiff.  Seeing as how the American standard was changed to allow the chest to come TO the elbow instead of past it, it would be quite possible to reach that dane appearance and stay within the standard if we had the same leg ratio.  The more we adapt our standard closer to that of a dane's, the more dane like our dogs will be.  I noticed that you did add the dane leg ratio to your standard.  I will not comment any further on this.  You know my oppinions of correct type by now I am sure.  BTW, Balint was a bit leggy, but that picture exagerates the appearance because he is crouched forwards in thap pic and his upper arm and shoulder are folded at a very tight angle.  I think you knew that. 


__________________
Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #65 

Chris,

 

I don't know why you would "bait" me, or just not admit your error!

 

In either case, many breeds show a 50-50 leg, and mastiffs should not be an exception!

 

Rotts, Danes, etc. ALL show this structure.

 

The photos of MM & tons of other great mastiffs, ALL show this structure!

 

That structure alone, does not represent "proper" type and form. It has to be coupled with other components.

 

Reality is difficult to "BAIT"!

 

I strongly suggest that you review the photos of some of the dogs I've posted and look at other photos. You will find a 50-50 structure in most of those historically great specimens.

 

Just look at Balint! You will see where structure can go off and create the look that we don't approve of. That said, a 50-50 structure is within the tolerances of what mastiffs should be showing, when coupled to a massive deep chest etc.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #66 

http://www.olnorse.com/oem/studs/bergtroll/uk.html


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #67 

 Always liked this boy, very massive, well sractured. In fact my Inna looks very much like him, heavy duty girl.She is 28 inch in shoulder .

Olga


0
PrayerboxMastiff

Registered:
Posts: 378
Reply with quote  #68 

As always Olga amazing you truely have gorgous mastiffs. Could look at them all day LOL Candi

0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #69 

The illustration shows Balint of Havengore. I'm using this illustration to show the 50%-50% ground to elbow vs elbow to whithers distance which I feel is the proper ratio. In the picture, Balint would need to be taller from the elbow up ( his chest is under the elbow which is correct ), or his legs would need to be shorter in order to become 50-50! He is crouching a bit in the photo, but I still don't believe that he would make the 50-50 ratio even if he were at full attention.

 

 

Attachments:

Click image for larger version

Name: scan0002.jpg
Views: 14
Size: 416.68 KB


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #70 

In this next illustration, we see Medicine Man with the proper 50%-50% ratio. 

Attachments:

Click image for larger version

Name: scan0003.jpg
Views: 8
Size: 312.72 KB


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #71 

There are some people who feel that the leg ratio should be further reduced.

I'm not in that camp, as I feel that it creates a "dwarf affect", in many cases, and will lead the breed down a difficult path.

 

Some of the best specimens have exhibited the 50-50 ratio and most animals in nature exhibit that same trait!

 

 

Attachments:

Click image for larger version

Name: scan0004.jpg
Views: 5
Size: 276.25 KB


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #72 

Kapu, the Dog of the Day
Name: Kapu
Age: Seven months old
Gender:

Male

Many dogs in the past were registered as mastiffs, but in fact were bullmastiffs.

The above young bullmastiff, would have certainly had no problem in the 20's gaining registration as a mastiff.

 


 

 
   
 


 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
kandy

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 67
Reply with quote  #73 
I'm curious..If everyone was to post a pic of what the ideal Mastiff should look like from their point of view if the majority of the pics would be the same or different?
__________________


Massimo Terrore
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #74 

A mastiff can have a 60-40 proportion of chest depth to overall height, but if the chest is to correctly drop below the elbow, then logically the elbow must be in a different ratio than the overall measurement from ground to chest/chest to withers.

 

Therefore a 50-50 foot to elbow/elbow to withers ratio is necessary, in order to acheive a 60-40 foot to chest/chest to withers "look" in profile, on a properly proportioned mastiff!

 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
Monica

Registered:
Posts: 4,089
Reply with quote  #75 
She's a nice bitch - whered'ya get her?

__________________
Monica
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Everyone~
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.


THANK YOU FOR VISITING OUR BOARD!!