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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #1 
Hypothetical............

A well known dog used extensively at stud, seems to be throwing a not so minor genetic defect.

The owners of the stud claim that it's the bitch that is throwing the defect, yet they don't test their stud to see if it's directly genetically related to him.

Would you use this stud in the future if he is not tested?

Would you question why he is not being tested, given the cloud forming over the issue surrounding him?

Would you come forward, if your bitch is throwing the genetic problem, after being bred to that stud?

We're dealing with ethical & legal issues, in the above scenarios and meanwhile, during the deliberations over the right & wrong of it all, the genes are flooding the gene pool with potential disastrous long term effects on the breed in general.

What would you recommend?





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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Jerold S. Bell, DVM, Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine

There is a tendency for breeders to breed to the male who is the top-winning dog. This can also occur with a popular dog that has OFA excellent hip conformation, or has produced no epileptic offspring in matings to epileptic dams. Regardless of the popularity of the breed, if a large portion are breeding to a single stud dog, (the popular-sire syndrome), the gene pool will drift in that dog's direction and there will be a loss of genetic diversity. Too much breeding to one dog will give the gene pool an extraordinary dose of his genes, and this will include whatever detrimental recessives he may carry, to be uncovered in later generations. This can cause future breed-related genetic disease through what is known as the founder's effect.

Along with the thrill of owning a popular sire, comes your responsibility to the breed. Over time, you will find out what detrimental genes he carries. Hopefully these will cause minor faults, but occasionally they may cause genetic disorders. The true measure of a conscientious breeder is how this knowledge is disseminated to the owners of the next generation.

Purebred dog breeds have closed studbooks. No new genes are available to the breed, except from infrequent mutations that are usually not desirable. Considering a breed as a whole, genes cannot be gained through selective breeding; they can only be lost. This has lead breeders to question whether a pure breed can go though hundreds of years of selective breeding and still maintain its health and viability.

All genes come in pairs: one from the sire and one from the dam. If both genes are of the same type, the gene pair is homozygous. If the two are different, the gene pair is heterozygous. While each dog can have a maximum of two different genes in a pair, many different genes are potentially available to be part of the pair. The greater the number of genes that are available to each pair, the greater the breed diversity.

Breeders underestimate the amount of diversity that can be present in a breed; even one with a limited group of founders. A molecular genetic study of the Chinook dog breed, which was reduced to four dogs in the 1970s, showed that there was significant gene diversity and heterozygosity in the breed.

The studbook for the Thoroughbred horse has been closed for more than 300 years. However, researchers have found that on average 63 percent of the variable gene pairs are heterozygous and that 4.7 genes are potentially available to each pair. This diversity is present in spite of the fact that 95 percent of the breed traces back to a single founder male.

Some breeders express concern that inbreeding depression may affect the viability of their breed. The consequence of inbreeding depression is not due to a general effect from a high level of homozygous gene pairs. The problem that inbreeding depression causes in purebred populations, stems from the effects of deleterious recessive genes. When homozygous, they cause impaired health.

Lethal recessives place a drain on the gene pool, through smaller litter size or neonatal death. Other deleterious genes can cause disease or impair immunity. If there is no breed diversity in a gene pair, but the particular homozygote that is present is not detrimental, there is no negative effect on health. The characteristics that make a breed reproduce true to its standard are based on non-variable (homozygous) gene pairs.

The Doberman Pincher breed has a problem with von Willebrand's disease; an autosomal recessive bleeding disorder. Genetic testing has found that the defective gene is present in 77 percent of Dobermans. Doberman breeders can test and identify carrier and affected dogs. They can decrease the defective gene's frequency by breeding carriers to normal-testing dogs and selecting quality, normal-testing offspring for breeding. By not just eliminating carriers, but replacing them with their normal-testing offspring, genetic diversity will be preserved.

The perceived problem of a limited gene pool has caused some breeders to discourage linebreeding and promote outbreeding in an attempt to protect genetic diversity. However, it is a fallacy that each dog must carry the diversity of the breed. Studies in genetic conservation and rare breeds have shown that this practice actually contributes to the loss of genetic diversity.

By uniformly crossing all "lines," or families of dogs in a breed, you eliminate the differences between them, and therefore the diversity between individuals. This practice in livestock breeding has significantly reduced diversity and caused the loss of unique rare breeds. The process of maintaining separate lines, with many breeders crossing between lines and breeding back as they see fit, maintains diversity in the gene pool. It is the varied opinion of breeders as to what constitutes the ideal dog, and their selection of breeding stock that maintains breed diversity.

A basic tenet of population genetics is that gene frequencies do not change from the parental generation to the offspring. The gene frequencies will remain the same regardless of the homozygosity or heterozygosity of the parents, or whether the mating represents an instance of outbreeding, linebreeding, or inbreeding. If some breeders outbreed, and some linebreed to certain dogs that they favor while others linebreed to other dogs that they favor, then breedwide genetic diversity is maintained.

The loss of genes from a breed's gene pool occurs through selection: the use and non-use of offspring. If a popular sire is used extensively, gene frequencies, and the gene pool can shift towards his genes, limiting the breed's genetic diversity. On the other hand, dogs that are poor examples of a breed should not be used simply to maintain diversity. Related dogs with desirable qualities will maintain diversity and improve the breed.

Breeders should concentrate on selecting toward the breed standard, based on ideal temperament, performance, and conformation, and should select against the significant breed related health issues. If breeders continually breed healthy, superior examples of their breed and avoid the popular-sire syndrome, the genetic health of the breed can be maintained.

Biographical Sketch

Jerold S. Bell, DVM is a Clinical Assistant Professor, and Director of the Clinical Veterinary Genetics Course for the Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine. He was trained in genetics and genetic counseling at Michigan State University, and the University of Missouri. His DVM is from Cornell University. Dr. Bell lectures to all-breed and individual breed dog clubs. He is the project administrator of genetic disease control programs for national parent clubs. He performs genetic counseling through Veterinary Genetic Counseling, and practices small animal medicine at Freshwater Veterinary Hospital in Enfield, CT. He and his wife breed Gordon Setters.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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brindles1

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Reply with quote  #3 

    Popular sire syndrome also "MEANS BIG $$ FOR THE STUD OWNER !!"

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Kimberly

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Reply with quote  #4 
Just out of curiosity, is this really a hypothetical or are you fishing? Do we get the name of the sire you have in mind since we all know you are never actually asking a hypothetical.

You are asking others to be upfront all the time. I feel like if you are trying to go somewhere you should be up front yourself so we can all have the complete picture.

So in other words until you tell us who you are talking about, what the genetic defect is and what the other facts are anyone who says they can honeslty answer your question is only "hypothetically speaking" and what we are really doing is fanning flames for our own entertainment purposes.



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Kimberly Hutchison
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Dorothy: How can you talk if you haven't got a brain?
Scarecrow: I don't know... But some people without brains do an awful lot of talking... don't they?

"I expect to pass through this world but once. Any good thing, therefore, that I can do or any kindness I can show to any fellow human being let me do it now. Let me not defer nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again."
Stephen Grellet, 1773-1855
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #5 
Kimberly,

Nice to know that you are speaking on behalf of the entire forum!

The history of this breed is flooded with examples of popular sires that passed on undesirable traits, which owners of same did not disclose to prospective purchasers.

These range from HD to fluffs in the past and at present, can also include all of the known genetic diseases that can be tested for, but may not be tested for in a given stud.

I ask and continue to ask others to be upfront in disclosing known negatives carried by their dogs. There's no contradiction in that understanding.

For me to accuse a specific dog of possessing a genetic negative without first testing, leaves me open to slander, or libel and insulates the owner since no test was conducted to affirm positive, or negative outcomes. If the dog is throwing genetic defects in it's get, then a red flag goes up, but without confirmation through testing, it still remains speculative! Therefore, in all good conscience, one cannot step forward.

This "hypothetical" thread, serves to alert those to the practice of breeders who stonewall important information from the public, in order to protect their personal interests above and beyond the benefits to the breed as a whole! 



__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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emarsh

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Reply with quote  #6 
Steve your hypothetical speaks of genetic testing - very limited DNA tests.  Why don't you "Hypothetically" pick one ?

Erika M.


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #7 

Well, there are tests that don't use DNA, yet represent genetic causes for transmission. A urine test for cystinuria is such a genetic marker!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Kimberly

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveoifer


Nice to know that you are speaking on behalf of the entire forum!


Yup, your right. Most everyone knows your MO. You never speak "hypothetically". And you have to admit, you like to stir the pot. Sometimes it is for a worthwhile discussion, but other times it is purely to see how many people will get their panties in a wad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveoifer

For me to accuse a specific dog of possessing a genetic negative without first testing, leaves me open to slander, or libel and insulates the owner since no test was conducted to affirm positive, or negative outcomes. If the dog is throwing genetic defects in it's get, then a red flag goes up, but without confirmation through testing, it still remains speculative! Therefore, in all good conscience, one cannot step forward.


Steve. I didnt pay good money for "lawyer training" for nothing. The defense to both libel and slander is the truth. Heck, I think I learned that before I shelled out the $100k in tuition. So if there are offspring of a particular dog out there coming down with a genetic defect and the dog has not been tested, guess what thats just plain passing facts along. Your posing the question in this manner reaks of you wanting to fan the flames with innuendos. That, as I said before is entertainment, not education. If that is your intent admit it. I can at least respect an honest attempt to make someone look bad or to get people whispering to eachother. But dont couch it in this "holier than thou" "for the good of the breed" "I only want the truth" nonsense. You do all of us and yourself a disservice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by steveoifer

This "hypothetical" thread, serves to alert those to the practice of breeders who stonewall important information from the public, in order to protect their personal interests above and beyond the benefits to the breed as a whole! 


At last you admit it. You know what this thread  really does Steve? Exactly what the person who enticed you to put it up wanted it to do. Make everyone go running to message boards, searching magazines, talking to friends to try and figure out just who Steve O is talking about so we can have something so selatious to talk about at the next show that makes our gossiping partner's eyes pop with disbelief. Thats it Steve. If you or your "source" wanted it to do something else there would have been facts involved.

You aren't an idiot, though others may disagree with me there. You knew everything I just said already. So fess up or move along please.

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Kimberly Hutchison
Maid, Cook & Slave to Adora & Justice

Dorothy: How can you talk if you haven't got a brain?
Scarecrow: I don't know... But some people without brains do an awful lot of talking... don't they?

"I expect to pass through this world but once. Any good thing, therefore, that I can do or any kindness I can show to any fellow human being let me do it now. Let me not defer nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again."
Stephen Grellet, 1773-1855
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emarsh

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Reply with quote  #9 
So you are talking about tests that are not DNA related, and that may be grey as well as black and white (as in HD) as well as PRA which is definitive in DNA test or are you now scooting the question ? Clearly whole different set of questions if you are discussing tests for health issues that are not DNA based.  Check out past cystinuria threads if you don't agree !
[edit] not to mention the issues raised in the non-DNA based tests about inheritance ! 

Erika M.


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #10 

Quote:

Steve. I didnt pay good money for "lawyer training" for nothing. The defense to both libel and slander is the truth.



Kimberly,

You make a case against me based on the same "facts" that you accuse me of not producing!

The defense to both libel and slander is the truth. So how do get to the truth, if the hypothetical dog in question does not get tested?

The type of disease may be sex linked and if so, may not need testing to find culpability! Or, it may require testing if the dog is asymptomatic!

Certain diseases may not have a known path of transmission, or it may be known in one breed, but not in another.

Probability is the key and if the breeder is honest and aware of a potential issue, they should test to alleviate all doubt!

Stirring the "pot of thought" is a bad thing to do in Mastiffs and you won't be the first person to remind me of this "taboo"!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #11 
Erika,

Not "scooting", just using a broad spectrum approach for the discussion.

You want to nail me down on a hypothetical issue that has no specifics, yet produces get with symptomatology!

It's the grey areas that shelter some breeders from coming forward and test to remove any doubt.

From the questionable parentage of Crown Prince and Ajax of Hellingly, to the reasons for Tobin's AKC suspension, it seems that Mastiff history is flooded by rumors that could have easily been laid to rest if only breeders would come forward and explain their actions which led up to controversy.

Unfortunately, some refuse to offer up any explanation, or evidence to offset any rumors. I believe that silence says more about the issue than if interested parties spoke out, but once again, it's just speculation and can not be proven otherwise. Another convenient loophole!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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emarsh

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Reply with quote  #12 
"Unfortunately, some refuse to offer up any explanation, or evidence to offset any rumors. I believe that silence says more about the issue than if interested parties spoke out"

Gee this is sounding less "hypothetical" ! 
When I was a kid, my mother would accuse me of "stirring the pot", I guess I should have said " no mom, I am
just using a broad spectrum approach for the discussion". She would have labeled that what it is...
Muck-raking and rumor mongering is not "for the good of the breed", it is for the elevation of the gossip. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

Erika m.

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #13 
Perhaps certain shoes may fit, and that can appear to some as muck raking, just for muck raking sake!

Is the hypothetical practice unbeknownst to everyone in Mastiff circles?

Let's get real!

But to label me as posting this just for affect is without any substance. It's based on lots of historical "Templecombe Toris'"

What would mommy say about falsely accusing someone of muckraking without any evidence?

__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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emarsh

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Reply with quote  #14 
"Unfortunately, some refuse to offer up any explanation, or evidence to offset any rumors. I believe that silence says more about the issue than if interested parties spoke out"  This is hypothetical ?  Mommy would say you are being disingenuous.
"
falsely accusing someone of muckraking without any evidence?" 
Who ? I said "hypothetically speaking"!
"Is the hypothetical practice unbeknownst to everyone in Mastiff circles?" Et Tu Steve O. ??

Erika M.

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #15 

Quote:

Muck-raking and rumor mongering is not "for the good of the breed", it is for the elevation of the gossip. Hypothetically speaking, of course.



Since your response was directed toward me, it no longer becomes hypothetical! It's about me!

Who was my thread directed towards?

 

__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #16 
Connie,

You're asking unrelated questions.

Popularity is based on the dog in question first and foremost (breed wins etc.)

Next comes productivity. This comes in several forms, either quantity, or quality.

The number of times a "popular stud" is used is not so much the issue.

It's the number of times he shows up in pedigrees that creates the popular sire syndrome!

If everyone wants to have their dog's pedigree contain that popular name, then the genes are flooding all pedigrees over time and creates the syndrome that can have positive, or negative consequences!

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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EXCMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
 You're asking unrelated questions.

Popularity is based on the dog in question first and foremost (breed wins etc.)


The dog in question?  I thought this was a hypothetical scenario about any and/or all popular studs? 

Heather




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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #18 
The hypothetical dog in question... is still valid!

Specific popular studs vary and for different reasons.

Therefore, to become more specific about related components that get passed on, the hypothetical dog has to be given certain qualities, or lack thereof, it then becomes the hypothetical dog in question!

For example, if we compare Weyacres Lincoln's specific traits, he will have a diffferent affect then let's say MM's impact on the gene pool!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Kimberly

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCF

This whole thread smacks of a fishing expedition and people really should consider *the source* before they dive into the deep end.  


Simple, succint and oh so accurate Connie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveoifer

You make a case against me based on the same "facts" that you accuse me of not producing!


Yes I do. You - Do not name names even when I tell you that libel/slander is not/can not be your real excuse. Me - Along with most other folks on this board knows exactly what you are doing and wants you to either make a statement (if that is your actual intention) or sit down and stop trying to cram your "hypotheticals" down our throats.


Quote:
Originally Posted by steveoifer

Probability is the key and if the breeder is honest and aware of a potential issue, they should test to alleviate all doubt!


Okay, probabilty. What dog are we talking about steve. How many times has the stud thrown said genetic fault, i.e. the cystinuria example you mentioned. How many litters has be has total? In other words we cant have an open discussion on this thread, other than a witch hunt, becuase we do not know the facts. And you know it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveoifer

Stirring the "pot of thought" is a bad thing to do in Mastiffs and you won't be the first person to remind me of this "taboo"!


Yes, witch hunts, stirring the pot just to get people mad and angry and yelling at eachother, using dumb hypotheticals that leave everyone whispering are what you would call taboo.

Like I have said repeatedly, if you really had an issue that was worthy or discussing or if you really wanted to bring something into the light you would come out with it. Your "methods" in this thread dont accomplish any of your goals, leave everyone guessing and finger pointing and are counter productive.

Can we please stop playing this game? You have allready admitted that we arent really talking hypotheticals. Say what your supplier wants you to say, or better yet have them come on and put themselves out here with the info. If they cant do that then there must be a reason why. Credibility anyone?

*Edited out most of the insulting parts.

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Kimberly Hutchison
Maid, Cook & Slave to Adora & Justice

Dorothy: How can you talk if you haven't got a brain?
Scarecrow: I don't know... But some people without brains do an awful lot of talking... don't they?

"I expect to pass through this world but once. Any good thing, therefore, that I can do or any kindness I can show to any fellow human being let me do it now. Let me not defer nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again."
Stephen Grellet, 1773-1855
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #20 

Kimberly,

I've been respectful to you throughout your erroneous suppositions of my intentions.

My "supplier" is and always has been myself!

Unlike the majority of fanciers in Mastiffs, I gain no monetary appreciation from speaking my piece on Mastiff matters. I have no vested interest in making one penny in Mastiffs and I don't need to protect myself, or others from topical issues that have universal implications.

Nobody tells me what to say or do and if you've followed these threads for a number of years, you would know that by now!

I find that those who react the loudest, are usually those who are not objective, usually due to their own personal issues surrounding delicate subject matter that gets raised.

If that is the case in your situation, I think you need to sort out your thoughts and direct them in the proper direction.

You constantly imply that I have an agenda of sorts

Quote:
Along with most other folks on this board knows exactly what the hell you are doing
and I would appreciate it if you would just come out and say what you think I "know" and tell us all why you have taken this so personally!

There's been no "cramming" of hypotheticals down anyone's throat as you stated! There's just been my opening post and then quoted articles regarding the threads subject header.

Quote:
You have allready admitted that we arent really talking hypotheticals.

Would you please show me where I stated that?

The irrational responses were not coming from yours truly and if you review the thread, you would see that!





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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #21 
Connie,

The founder effect is the end result of the popular sire syndrome!

They are linked and not separate entities, unless you wish to fragment the notion.

Your last paragraph has validity, but it's not the sole reason for popular names appearing in pedigrees. Scarcity of suitable sires can also produce similar pedigrees. The danger increases dramatically with the advent of frozen semen.

__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Kimberly

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveoifer

I find that those who react the loudest, are usually those who are not objective, usually due to their own personal issues surrounding delicate subject matter that gets raised.


This is where you get to be wrong. I have no pots in the fire, or whatever the expression is. I have two bitches, neither of whom I have breeding plans with at the moment and both of whom are hale and healthy. Even so, one is too young to get all her testing and the other has most of not all of the reccomended tests done. I am ultimately a pet owner at this stage in the game. In the future that may change, or it may not.

I just dislike BS and I see this kind of nonsense going on too often. It doesnt help Steve, you, again, are not an idiot and you must see that. If anything it removes the conversation from what the topic should be to who has what and who bred to who and who "may" be covering it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveoifer

Would you please show me where I stated that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by steveoifer
This "hypothetical" thread, serves to alert those to the practice of breeders who stonewall important information from the public, in order to protect their personal interests above and beyond the benefits to the breed as a whole!

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveoifer
For me to accuse a specific dog of possessing a genetic negative without first testing, leaves me open to slander, or libel and insulates the owner since no test was conducted to affirm positive, or negative outcomes. If the dog is throwing genetic defects in it's get, then a red flag goes up, but without confirmation through testing, it still remains speculative! Therefore, in all good conscience, one cannot step forward.


You all but say it steve. I dont have time to pick out the rest of your posts but here are two big ones. Instead of just answering, why yes, this is purely hypothetical, you go and dance around the issue.

And if I have insulted you I am sorry. I simply gave you more credit than to be a mouthpiece to rumor-mongering.  And so therefore I have expressed my frustration with you insisting on carrying this on. Once again....NOTHING other than fingerppointing can be gained from this type of "hypothetical" discussion. You want to leave it at that than fine. Be my guest. But if you really want to discuss facts tell us please who you believe are the guilty parties that are not testing their widely used stud dogs for what diseases and then we can have a real discussion becuase we get to have all of the facts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by steveoifer
Nobody tells me what to say or do and if you've followed these threads for a number of years, you would know that by now!


Yes Steve I have followed the threads for a number of years. And I have found this to be the less than the truth. You will often start a thread at another's suggestion. I have seen it happen more than once. I believe it is happening here.


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Kimberly Hutchison
Maid, Cook & Slave to Adora & Justice

Dorothy: How can you talk if you haven't got a brain?
Scarecrow: I don't know... But some people without brains do an awful lot of talking... don't they?

"I expect to pass through this world but once. Any good thing, therefore, that I can do or any kindness I can show to any fellow human being let me do it now. Let me not defer nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again."
Stephen Grellet, 1773-1855
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Cedarhollow

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Reply with quote  #23 
What could have been a very good discussion about a problem that all breeds potentially face (Popular Sire Syndrome) was once again 'derailed' by your approach, Steve.  Regardless of your intentions...admitted or implied...the question of your motivations is hard to ignore.  You have an incredible knack for instilling mistrust in most of what you write because of the way you approach things.  So many times the exact same things could be written without the controversy but you choose the path of most resistance!  You can tell us until you are blue in the face [or in the fingers  ] that you are just trying to create conversations...but if this were true why not do so in a manner more suited to encouraging conversation instead of throwing down a gauntlet destined to encourage arguments?  Actions speak louder than words. 



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hbspruce

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Reply with quote  #24 

once again Steve you prove what my Mother always told me "The Woman is always smarter".Path of most resistance,he,he,he.Adrian

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #25 
Connie,

Quote:
Steve, the use of a particular stud dog doesn't necessarily mean he will appear in a pedigree 20, 30, 40 times!  That stud may have been used in someone's breeding program as an outcross for one generation.  Do you follow what I'm trying to convey? 

 
No!

If the dog in question is not a popular sire in a pedigree, then it doesn't apply as strongly compared to pedigrees in which that dog is up front, or appears multiple times.

The key components are the poly-gene recessives, non autosomal components and other goodies that can flood a breed into a genetic bottleneck.

I respect you for your work in helping those in the dairy industry, but the genetics of milk production, or usable beef per pound, is not directly related to the subtle conformation requirements in dog breeding.




__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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